606 réponses à ce sujet

[Snorka]

Look at all that cheese!

[Avilan II]

Look at all that cheese!

 

Ah yes, the movie that proved a lot of people think it's okay with cultural (and normal) genocide because We're Humans and they are just savages.

[Hadeedak]

Well, yeah. That's why I want to poke around unsettled frontiers and horrifying biomes. Possibly with man eating plants. Or space pterosaurs.

[In Exile]

The point I am making is not really about going to a pre-settled planet and killing them all. It's rather about say starting a colony within the borders of an existing civilization and then say it's okay to kill them when they want their land back.

 

What's "within the borders"? A real issue that happened IRL was the clash of cultures. Even apart from the technological issues, and the health related issues (which as I understand the recent scholarship was the real deciding factor), in our world the colonials came from cultures and values that were (pardon the pun) totally alien to the local population. That led to military conflict. 

 

I'm not sure that a sufficiently similar to our own civilization would react in the same way, or at least open with open warfare rather than diplomacy from an (obvious) position of weakness.

[TopTrog]

Seriously, no matter who we fight in the game, aren´t we the foreign invaders? Even if we settle an empty planet and other races discover it later, don´t they have a bigger claim on the planet since well, we are not even from the same galaxy?

Good point, and i´m quite confident it is one the devs also have on their radar screen . Lots of opportunities open up by setting the game far removed from ME 1-3. Potential for some really interesting big choices to be made by the player which are not driven by the context of the "Earth-is-being-attacked-and-we-are-facing-extinction" theme from the first three games.         

[Johnthejefi24]

If that planet or system or a group of systems already belongs to a race of brings than leave it alone and find another planet/system to colonize. There are BILLIONS of worlds ripe for colonization and exploitation...have at it.

[Kappa Neko]

Come on, guys. We know how this is going to play out: we'll be exploring biiiig pretty-looking planets with weird wildlife and monsters, and occasional space bandits. It's perfectly fine to kill those, as we have learned. They started it.

 

During our travels, we'll find these remnants of an ancient mysterious society like last time. It will dawn on us that they are just as bad as the reapers, no, worse! OMG THE CYCLE CONTINUES... and we'll beat those bad bad aliens too eventually and all will be well. Whatever primitive races of beautiful blue purple space babes we encountered, they will worship the ground we walk on. We're the new herald of whatever now. We'll help those primitives advance like the protheans did with the asari.

...then somebody finds a time travel wormhole in the last 10min of the new trilogy and the reapers invade Andromeda and kill everyone after all. Worse ending than ME3. Mission accomplished.

[Laughing_Man]

It's an entire freaking galaxy, no one can claim ownership on that just by being born in the same giant area in space.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ah yes, the movie that proved a lot of people think it's okay with cultural (and normal) genocide because We're Humans and they are just savages.

 

I prefer to think of it as 'the movie that proved anti-imperialists don't understand anything except incompetent imperialism.'

[SolNebula]

Well I totally know this won't happen but it would be actually cool if we were sort of villanish people...Imperialist who expand with force and destroying the previous balance that was existing. I think it provides for an interesting theme rather than we being always the pure good side. Did we respect the native culture (paragon) or behave like brutal colonizers (renegade)? That would also provide a nice context for the paragon/renegade decisions.

[Nitrocuban]

So we gonna put all that dirty native Andromeda wildlings in reservation camps after we bought their plantes for a handfull ov glass pearls?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Tzeentchian Apostrophe:  So, this isn't "our planet" then?  

 

@SolNebula:  I'd prefer it if we had the option.  I can, and have, played Imperialist type characters who have done attrocious things to native populations (in a game called Rogue Trader, a Warhammer 40K RPG).  

 

But I want the choice.  

 

I have played a ton of PnP... those games are fluid.  cRPGs are "the game I'm playing this year" or even "the next few years" - I don't want to pigeon holed into genocidal conqueror for Bioware's next installment.

 

In truth - I'd rather side with the indigenous and blow the invaders out of the sky before they arrive.  

[General TSAR]

I prefer to think of it as 'the movie that proved anti-imperialists don't understand anything except incompetent imperialism.'

x2.

 

The hamfisted messages are so lulzy.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Dean_the_Young:  I'm no fan of Avatar... but do tell, what is "competent imperialism"?  How the British did it?  Cause they certainly were competent at it.  So... basically you wanted Avatar to have the humans co-habitate with the indigenous, make them reliant on human goods, then slowly subvert their culture until humans govern and rule over everything with impunity?  Is that the competent imperialism we're talking about?
 

What they did in Avatar was just reconnaissance with the indigenous.  British Imperialism takes much longer.  This was more like American "Imperialism"... bomb it in the name of improving it.  So I think it was a pretty accurate depiction.

 

====

 

All this being said... it's preposterous to think that the Andromeda Galaxy doesn't have it's own advanced civilizations easily capable of repelling a ship of dejected colonials. 

 

And if it's just been through a Reaper cleansing... there won't be any sapient species to object. 

[Laughing_Man]

@Tzeentchian Apostrophe:  So, this isn't "our planet" then? 

 

It's "our universe".

 

The thing about morality is that it is always relative.

If I arrive to a lawless sector in space filled with pirates and other menaces and I see a nice empty planet, I don't see any moral reason not to stake my claim.

 

Every breath you take now might cause suffocation on earth a few hundreds years down the line.

If you want to survive and thrive, there is a limit to how far you can go with the "I'm totally peaceful and I don't harm anyone or anything. Ever." attitude.

It's very "holier than thou", impractical, and naive.

[Angry_Elcor]

Those little alien bastards think they're going to stop me from owning the planet, just because they were born there?

 

 

I don't think so.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Tzeentchian Apostrophe:  "Surviving" and "thriving" aren't absolute truths... no more than dying as a peaceful man.  It's simply what you want.  You're glorifying it and are quite on your own high horse... because you believe that what you're saying is "truth"... just like any other delusion chattering monkey (including what I'm saying here - I believe myself to be speaking truth). 

 

Your claimed ownership of the universe is sad actually.  I mean in a literal sense.  To claim ownership of something that is so vastly beyond one ignorant upjumped monkey is futile at the very best. 

 

The universe has already taken care of you.  You're already dead, you just haven't died.  Your "surviving and thriving" is, to me, the true self-righteous attitude as well as being "impractical and naive".  You just get to choose in what manner you wish to die in (and by that I mean, in what manner you partook in life before you died).  

 

As this pertains to ME:A... I have no worries.  Refusal to partake in a conquest fantasy is just an "Exit" button away.  I hope it's not required (though I'll applaud its inclusion). 

[pdusen]

Seriously, no matter who we fight in the game, aren´t we the foreign invaders? Even if we settle an empty planet and other races discover it later, don´t they have a bigger claim on the planet since well, we are not even from the same galaxy?

 

We don't know nearly enough about who we'll be fighting and how we got there to make a determination like that.

[Vortex13]

Look at all that cheese!

 

 

 

All the preaching in that movie aside, I still don't understand how a primitive species, without access to any mechanical prowess whatsoever could have possibly defeated the human expeditionary forces. We have the technology to cross interstellar distances, your telling me that we didn't have unmanned drones that we could have used to rain fire on their puny little world tree? And what about chemical weapons, or nukes that we could drop from orbit? The loincloth clad blue people on flying manta rays couldn't have done jack squat against that. 

 

 

Avatar is one of the few sci-fi stories where I was rooting for the humans to win. Take your Fern Gully / Dances with Wolves story someplace else! 

[Avilan II]

I prefer to think of it as 'the movie that proved anti-imperialists don't understand anything except incompetent imperialism.'

 

Since Imperialists, per definition, are evil, then why should I care what they think?

 

 

Avatar is one of the few sci-fi stories where I was rooting for the humans to win. Take your Fern Gully / Dances with Wolves story someplace else!  

 

See. I could never do that. I was, however, cheering every time a human died in that movie.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Vortex13:  The entire planet technically turned against humanity.  If our planet turned against us... the insects alone would be able to wipe us out - not to mention our domesticated animals. 

 

Again - not a fan of Avatar - but the concept is "plausible" even if poorly executed.

 

@Avilan II:  Uh oh, you said the "E" word... now every self-important moral relativist is gonna come at you guns blazing to push their own morality on you in their wildly inconsistent crusade to prove there is no morality. 

[KaiserShep]

No need to conquer anyone. Just send everyone t-shirts laced with the Milky Way Strain, and the gift that keeps on giving will do the work for you.

[Steelcan]

Imperialism isn't inherently evil. In many cases the cultures they replaced earned their monikers of "savage". The Aztecs come immediately to mind, as do the Apache.

That doesn't justify centuries of virtual enslavement and so on, but to dismiss even the humanitarian aspects simply because it doesn't fit your narrative is deeply irritating.

[Avilan II]

Imperialism isn't inherently evil. In many cases the cultures they replaced earned their monikers of "savage". The Aztecs come immediately to mind, as do the Apache.

That doesn't justify centuries of virtual enslavement and so on, but to dismiss even the humanitarian aspects simply because it doesn't fit your narrative is deeply irritating.

 

Mighty Whitey is a very annoying trope.

So is The White Man's Burden.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Steelcan:  You won't get the human sacrifice angle debated from me... the Aztecs were a bloody people.  Are you aware from whence those beliefs come from? 

Moral relativism is great.. when it works to support people's base recidivism... but when it comes to actually looking at other ways of life and saying: "It's relative." that's rarely done.

 

If conquering another people isn't evil.. then neither is sacrificing humans because of their very real, very accurate assertion that life comes from death (especially in the climate in which they lived).