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Aren´t we technically the bad guys?


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#101
Natureguy85

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Actually, doesn't this just make everyone the Quarians?

 

First, we know very, very little about the context of the setting at this point. Unless you're coming from the viewpoint that simply traveling to another galaxy is an aggressive act, nothing we've seen to date indicates the Milky Wayers have done anything wrong. The fact that they're fighting a war in another galaxy doesn't mean they started that war.

Second, arbitrarily extending a given species' sovereignty or claim of rightful possession to its entire galaxy of origin is ridiculous. I can easily see an argument that a sapient species should have territorial rights over its home planet, since it will have evolved there as an integrated component of its native biome. Beyond that any limit is silly; presuming a species has natural sovereignty over a galaxy doesn't make any more or less sense than setting the limit as its solar system, local cluster of stars, local cluster of galaxies (e.g. the Local Cluster to which the Milky Way belongs), or an imaginary bubble 1,529,470 ly in diameter.

 

This is similar to my questioning of why the Council handed out entire planets to different races. Why couldn't a planet have colonies from various Citadel races? Is Earth the only planet in the galaxy with different climates and flora/fauna in different regions? Can they not peacefully occupy different parts of the same planet? (Maybe not the Krogan, lol)


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#102
Steelcan

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Mighty Whitey is a very annoying trope.
So is The White Man's Burden.

as is the noble savage and innocent natives
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#103
Medhia_Nox

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@Natureguy85:  Well, our own race can't co-habitate with different ideologies.  It hasn't changed is thousands of years... if you think it's going to change in a few hundred more, I have bad news. 

 

The Council races especially are very "human-like" in their actions... while the more peaceful races (Volus, Elcor and Hanar) who are not would be bowled over by the constant aggressive natures of the former. 

 

Dividing civilizations by planets is one of the very few smart things that Council does.  



#104
Steelcan

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@Steelcan:  You won't get the human sacrifice angle debated from me... the Aztecs were a bloody people.  Are you aware from whence those beliefs come from? 
Moral relativism is great.. when it works to support people's base recidivism... but when it comes to actually looking at other ways of life and saying: "It's relative." that's rarely done.
 
If conquering another people isn't evil.. then neither is sacrificing humans because of their very real, very accurate assertion that life comes from death (especially in the climate in which they lived).

well Aztec beliefs are theorized to have arisen to compensate for the lack of domesticatable mammals in Mexico. An often overlooked aspect of Aztec religion was the cannibalism inherent to it.

As for the rest of this, I am not a moral relativist, I desdespisepite moral relativism

#105
Avilan II

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as is the noble savage and innocent natives

 

Yes, I fully agree. but I have not argued that. At all. 



#106
Dean_the_Young

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@Dean_the_Young:  I'm no fan of Avatar... but do tell, what is "competent imperialism"?  How the British did it?  Cause they certainly were competent at it.  So... basically you wanted Avatar to have the humans co-habitate with the indigenous, make them reliant on human goods, then slowly subvert their culture until humans govern and rule over everything with impunity?  Is that the competent imperialism we're talking about?
 

What they did in Avatar was just reconnaissance with the indigenous.  British Imperialism takes much longer.  This was more like American "Imperialism"... bomb it in the name of improving it.  So I think it was a pretty accurate depiction.

 

Medhia, medhia, medhia.

 

If you're a competent resource-extractor with amorality enough to commit genocide, you don't go out to chop down trees in laughably designed 'military' vehicles and forces.

 

You drop rocks on them. From orbit. And then mine the debris.

 

 

Besides, the smurfs are doomed anyway.

 
Ten(ish) Reasons Everyone on Pandora Is Dead by Avatar 2
April 7, 2014 7:39 AM
avatar-2-rip.jpg?w=620&h=349&crop=1

We’ll miss your realistic animation and your lack of personality.

biosize.jpg?w=125&h=83&crop=1Luke McKinney
Luke McKinney writes about games, drink, science, and everything else...

Read More

 

It’s been four years since audiences were amazed by Avatar’s stunningly beautiful computer graphics, and James Cameron’s equally stunning decision to not even bother writing a plot. Millions of viewers were moved by the struggle of the Pandoran tribe. Which is why we think it’s important to remember that every single one of them is dead. It’s just a matter of which guaranteed extinction strategy struck the tribe first:

1. Twelve years after Pandoran victory the entire site is glassed by orbital bombardment. That’s six years travel time to Earth, six years return journey to Pandora, not even one minute in between to realize “Hey, it’s actually much easier to mine rock out of the ground if you utterly exterminate everything on the surface first.”

2. The animals didn’t help the Na’vi fight because Eywa liked the English speaking straight white male better than her own entire people, but because she’d recently been infected by a human mind. They downloaded a gutshot, pissed-off Sigourney Weaver into their planetary consciousness! Those animals weren’t just killing marines, they were killing everything, it only looked good because most of the Na’vi were already dead.

screeching.jpg?w=366&h=308

You put Sigourney Weaver into an Alien body. How happy did you think she was going to be? (Source: 20th Century Fox)

The next year makes the seven biblical plagues look like a spot of drizzle, as a rampaging ecology flenses the overgrown surface of everything including itself.

3. The Omaticaya are riven by internal civil war when it becomes clear that their fabled leader, the Jakesully, is impotent. “Of course the avatars are impotent.” explained the bearded scientist who remained on Pandora. “Jesus, it’s obvious. What sort of psychopaths would give a scientific observation tool the ability to inject foreign human-altered genetic material into a native species? What sort of selfish, suicidal, genocidally-genitaled madman would even consider doing that?”

drmaxpatel.jpg?w=366&h=371

He then looked at the jock who joined the avatar program specifically and only to be able to feel things below the waist again, and went “oh.” (Source: 20th Century Fox)

1B. Seriously, what’s the point of carefully lowering an entire spaceship full of robot suits and bombs on the surface, when non-carefully dropping the entire ship would do the same job instantly? Without loss of human life? And the resultant crater would actually make the unobtanium much easier to mine?

4. The unified species is devastated by grief and self-loathing when they find that the Toruk Makto, their mythical hero of legend, abandoned his bonded ikran creature to die alone despite being told they bonded for life. After claiming the giant red great leonopteryx, the Jakesully cast his loyal ikran aside, spitting in the face of the sacrifice the animal had made. This insult against all the life and honor the Na’vi held sacred broke the spirit of the entire race. They faded away within three generations.

5. The Na’vi are wiped out by a disease from one of the remaining human scientists. Limited exposure time and professional military quarantine medical facilities had previously prevented this problem. Filthy bearded humans living in the filthy jungle with nothing but a gas mask did the opposite.

6. The Na’vi are wiped out by their own equivalent of the Hanta virus. Nothing to do with human infection, that’s just the sort of $#!+ that happens when you start acting like nature is a big cuddly mommy instead of an eternal everything-wide competitive murder league.

7. The Borg. Try praying at them you giant cerulean @$$#()!%$. (Or any other species which didn’t evolve blatant morality tales).

8. Recordings of the Na’vi reach Earth. The species is wiped out by sex tourist STDs within a decade.

neytiri.jpg?w=385&h=352

Neytiri seeing the results from googling her own name. (Source: 20th Century Fox)

9. The planet is devastated by an asteroid strike, resulting in a nuclear winter and the extinction of every animal species larger than a vole. Amazingly, an almost identical asteroid is on course to strike Earth at the exact same moment, but is identified months before impact and almost casually shunted aside by our technology.

1C. It’s actually cheaper to exterminate the Na’vi from space than it is to even land and talk to them. The only thing preventing the corporation from doing that in the first place was the negative PR factor. To offset that you’d need something truly shocking, like extended graphic footage of the Na’vi not only killing humans but brutally murdering fleeing and surrendering humans with crude pointed spears and wild animals. But where would you … oh, wait.

10. The Na’vi are riven by internal conflict in the power vacuum when the Jakesully drops dead, because temporary research bodies are only designed to last for three years of active use. He doesn’t even get a fantastic final speech about tears in the rain, instead reading the price tag and barcode off the back of a large print edition of Pocahontas.

1D. The corporation could claim the ship drop was an accident and make money on the insurance, never mind the resulting mining operation. Seriously, the only thing protecting the Na’vi from extermination was a vague sense of morality, and they stabbed it to death while screaming like animals. We’re meant to feel victory at the end of Avatar? They humiliated a parade of military corporate @$$#()!%$, and the look in every single eye was “I’m getting into my ship, going into cryosleep, and in less than a subjective week I’ll be back and the surface of this planet will shine like a cue ball.

bonusround2.jpg?w=642

Luke McKinney  writes about games, drink, science, and everything else that makes life amazing. He’s acolumnist  on Cracked and writes for several beer magazines. He’s also available for hire. Follow him onTumblr  and Twitter @lukemckinney.


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#107
Laughing_Man

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Your claimed ownership of the universe is sad actually.  I mean in a literal sense.  To claim ownership of something that is so vastly beyond one ignorant upjumped monkey is futile at the very best. 

 

You simply misunderstood, I meant that saying "it's our galaxy, go away" is not a better claim for "ownership" than the fact that both "we" and "them" live in the same universe, and therefore have the "right" to claim an empty planet.

 

That said, I didn't support at any point an actual conquest of a planet that has a civilization on it, just as I don't support genocide and other nasty "solutions".

 

I do think that in this scenario morality is rather simple, and that being overly squeamish about hurting the feelings of local pirates is rather close to the definition of "holier than thou".

 

To summarize: Going all X-Ray style (X-COM) on a local civilization - bad. Taking over a few empty rocks in wild space and defending yourself from pirates - good.

 

The rest is just a long-winded philosophical argument that can't be resolved one way or the other.



#108
Avilan II

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And of course awful people will think it was morally right to glass the planet because Yay Genocide!

 

(Yes I know this is not a canon article anyway, just somebody being a smartass).



#109
Dean_the_Young

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And of course awful people will think it was morally right to glass the planet because Yay Genocide!

 

(Yes I know this is not a canon article anyway, just somebody being a smartass).

 

Were you? I didn't see a morality argument anywhere, so maybe I missed the smart.

 

 

Avatar is a wonderful example of a movie in which people think that evil resource-extracting imperialists are not only evil, but stupid-evil, because if they were baseline competent-evil then the entire delimma would have been resolved in an entirely one-sided event that the plucky undergods would have been crushed by.

 

It's a classic trope, in which moral superiority trumps common sense, but usually that applies to the heroes, and not the villains.

 

I mean, just drop a rock and the planet wouldn't even know it wasn't an accident of the universe. It's safer, cheaper, easier, less prone to failure, and infinitely more effective than trying to cut down a tree with chain-guns and rockets. They already conceeded the morality angle- why aren't they doing wrong right?



#110
Avilan II

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Avatar is a wonderful example of a movie in which people think that evil resource-extracting imperialists are not only evil, but stupid-evil, because if they were baseline competent-evil then the entire delimma would have been resolved in an entirely one-sided event that the plucky undergods would have been crushed by.

 

Oh but if people were competent in movies there would be no movies.

See The Evil Overlord List, just as one example.

 

Plus, how could we reenact Dancing With Wolves In Space if one half of the cast instead reenacts "My Most Successful WH40K Campaign"...?  :D



#111
SofaJockey

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The 'prime directive' ?

We have dismissed that claim.



#112
dragonflight288

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This game....

 

Paragon means uplifting technolgically inferior races but allowing them to keep their culture, like the Asari and the Salarians practiced.

 

Renegade means taking them into our society Prothean style.



#113
Steelcan

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The 'prime directive' ?

We have dismissed that claim.

try the 'Cosmic Imperative' :P



#114
KaiserShep

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Avatar is a wonderful example of a movie in which people think that evil resource-extracting imperialists are not only evil, but stupid-evil, because if they were baseline competent-evil then the entire delimma would have been resolved in an entirely one-sided event that the plucky undergods would have been crushed by.

 

It's a classic trope, in which moral superiority trumps common sense, but usually that applies to the heroes, and not the villains.

 

I mean, just drop a rock and the planet wouldn't even know it wasn't an accident of the universe. It's safer, cheaper, easier, less prone to failure, and infinitely more effective than trying to cut down a tree with chain-guns and rockets. They already conceeded the morality angle- why aren't they doing wrong right?

 

 

Especially considering that loss of life was considerable even before the war for the magnetic brain tree. 

 

There's an operation in Dragon Age Inquisition that's a lot like that: dealing with the angry varghasts. Leliana's option to guide the animals out to minimize the impact on them costs a fair number of lives, some apparently lost in pretty gruesome deaths, whereas zero losses are suffered simply wiping them out. 



#115
Steelcan

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Especially considering that loss of life was considerable even before the war for the magnetic brain tree. 

 

There's an operation in Dragon Age Inquisition that's a lot like that: dealing with the angry varghasts. Leliana's option to guide the animals out to minimize the impact on them costs a fair number of lives, some apparently lost in pretty gruesome deaths, whereas zero losses are suffered simply wiping them out. 

also a nice blow to "subterfuge is always the best option" sometimes a nail just needs a hammer



#116
Sylvius the Mad

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Actually, that could be pretty cool. Present us with choices that colonial powers would have faced, with realistic consequences.

Wiping out indigenous cultures should probably carry significant benefits, but make some players feel awful.

But when you're a colonial power, ethnocentrism has huge advantages.
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#117
Steelcan

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Actually, that could be pretty cool. Present us with choices that colonial powers would have faced, with realistic consequences.

Wiping out indigenous cultures should probably carry significant benefits, but make some players feel awful.

But when you're a colonial power, ethnocentrism has huge advantages.

perhaps it would be best to avoid the benefits/drawbacks of an aggressive colonial policy

 

I personally wouldn't have any issues with it, but I doubt BioWare would ever make a game where violent colonialism is encouraged



#118
Shandyr

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Actually I don't see why anyone would have a problem with being a bad guy.

 

I mean look at this forum for example. Look how people treat each other with hate and disrespect,

how they look down on each other and ravel in the toxic atmosphere here.

 

If anything this forum is a good place to learn how to be a bad guy. So why would Bioware

not take the next logical step and let us exercise the lessons of hate we learn here

in their game?

 

Let the invasion of Andromeda begin!



#119
Undead Han

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Having the protagonists turn out to be the bad guys, or rather a setting where neither side is morally superior...could be interesting. I'm sort of hoping Bioware goes that route now.


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#120
Wulfram

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It seems more plausible that we'll be like the Roanoke colony than that we'll be in a position to be really awful to the natives.  Aside from your pre-FTL types, anyway, but they exist back in the Milky Way too.



#121
Silcron

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Actually, that could be pretty cool. Present us with choices that colonial powers would have faced, with realistic consequences.

Wiping out indigenous cultures should probably carry significant benefits, but make some players feel awful.

But when you're a colonial power, ethnocentrism has huge advantages.

 

Not to mention praising the f*ck out of your empire. Trust me, we used to call our country "The Empire in which the Sun cannot set." and we had a pretty cool "Invincible Armada" (storms and other naval powers notwithstanding)



#122
Vortex13

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@Vortex13:  The entire planet technically turned against humanity.  If our planet turned against us... the insects alone would be able to wipe us out - not to mention our domesticated animals. 

 

Again - not a fan of Avatar - but the concept is "plausible" even if poorly executed.

 

 

Even so, what can a planet do to our orbiting spaceships?

 

 

Oh the native wildlife is rising in revolt? Well we have nukes, biological/chemical weapons, or even redirected asteroids. Can the native wildlife say E.L.E?



#123
LPPrince

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We'll talk it out.



#124
Sylvius the Mad

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perhaps it would be best to avoid the benefits/drawbacks of an aggressive colonial policy

I personally wouldn't have any issues with it, but I doubt BioWare would ever make a game where violent colonialism is encouraged

Grand strategy games do this all the time.

#125
KaiserShep

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@Vortex13:  The entire planet technically turned against humanity.  If our planet turned against us... the insects alone would be able to wipe us out - not to mention our domesticated animals. 

 

The big difference here is the stake we'd have in the fate of the planet's ecology. We don't benefit from a flourishing Pandoran ecosystem, so if the entirety of its wildlife decided to rise up against the humans, the humans have no reason to hold back and simply leave the entire surface of the moon smoldering ash.