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I honestly don't get Cole


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#1
_aLucidMind_

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He is supposedly the spirit of compassion, and yet he disagrees with everything compassionate or just. If you allow the Grey Wardens to stay in Orlais and help the Inquisition, he greatly disapproves... so he honestly thinks they should be punished or vilified for being tricked? Ser Ruth turns herself in afterward for your judgement, wishing for execution at the Inquisition's hand and declaring her guilt. Show compassion by refusing to judge her, as she was tricked and manipulated, then Cole disagrees. Yet, if you imprison her or exile her to the Deep Roads then he approves. When he says something and you respond with a compassionate, sympathetic, or understanding remark then he disagrees. Yet he will agree if you do the opposite of being compassionate.

 

Maybe his companion quest will give a competent explanation why all this is, but I doubt it will. The guy literally makes no sense to me.


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#2
Xiltas

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Because he's no longer a one-dimensional spirit?


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#3
_aLucidMind_

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You don't have to be one-dimensional to not be a hypocrite, or even the polar opposite of what he claims he wants to do for others.


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#4
Iakus

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The Grey Wardens have a "whatever it takes" philosophy.  THey may have been tricked, but the fact that they did in fact stoop to human sacrifice to raise an army of demons is abhorent to him.To his mind, even if the Calling was real, they never should have stooped to such a level.


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#5
thats1evildude

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It's simple: the Grey Wardens hurt people. To a Spirit of Compassion, that's bad.

 

He does react positively to you forgiving Ruth in Andraste's name.



#6
Shechinah

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*snip*

I wanted to offer my opinionated reasoning and divided it into sections:

 

The Wardens: The Wardens as Cole has seen them are people who sacrificed others, employed the use of demons and generally endangered people so allowing them to stay in Orlais and help the Inquisition perhaps worries him that they'll be allowed to continue to do these things. He is not advocating their deaths even if that may be a consequence of exile he does not grasp but at the same time, he has no reason to feel compassionate towards an order that he has seen the worst and which has it foundation on doing whatever is necessary no matter the cost.

 

Ser Ruth: While it may seem compassionate to you to refuse to judge, it does not seem like compassion to Ser Ruth because she wants to be judged due to her remorse, she wants her actions acknowledged and by refusing to judge her, is to her like dismissing her and her actions. This is likely why Cole does not see refusal as compassion because it does not diminish Ser Ruth's guilt and so she suffers as a result.  He approves of punishment because it, in a way, helps Ser Ruth but he also approves of forgiveness because it too helps Ser Ruth. To be forgiven, her actions has to be acknowledged as being bad and so they and she is still judged.

 

Remarks: You want to list some of these remarks since I know he has approved of some compassionate remarks and deeds my character has done. It may lie in how he reasons these remarks.


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#7
zambingo

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[channels Sera] People are people, no surprise yeah. Spirits are people too. I guess. Ugh. That hurts. Cole is stupid like everyone is stupid. Doesn't mean he's always stupid. I suppose it depends on who's shoes you're wearing. Or in his case what hat. He likes hats, you know. All different ones.


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#8
FemShem

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[channels Sera] People are people, no surprise yeah. Spirits are people too. I guess. Ugh. That hurts. Cole is stupid like everyone is stupid. Doesn't mean he's always stupid. I suppose it depends on who's shoes you're wearing. Or in his case what hat. He likes hats, you know. All different ones.

Great Sera voice;)  "You're scary in another place." Cole


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#9
Ariella

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You don't have to be one-dimensional to not be a hypocrite, or even the polar opposite of what he claims he wants to do for others.


I don't see it as hypocritical to find a 'end justifies the means' attitude abhorrent. In fact, such a mindset precludes compassion.
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#10
Cobra's_back

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I agree.

 

Mages took control of a town, overthrew the people in the castle, and were responsible for the deaths of the tranquils. He greatly approves of alliance with them. If you say they were brainwashed, then so were the wardens.
 
The defination of Compassion:
 
1. a feeling of deep sympathy and sorrow for another who is stricken by misfortune, accompanied by a strong desire to alleviate the suffering.
 
He has no compassion for the templars but many were victims as well. The Chantry made them drug addicts. Even when they were all drug addicts some questioned their commanders and fought at your side.
 
So his compassion is tainted. In the book he killed several people, and he was a demon (now known as corrupted spirit). This all happens while poor Rhys was under suspicion for the murders.
 
Do I buy that he is compassion? No way
 
He has selective compassion, and therefore tainted.
 
Compassion and judging others doesn't work with me. If purely just compassion, he should have compassion for all including the wardens who were tricked.

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#11
Cobra's_back

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It's simple: the Grey Wardens hurt people. To a Spirit of Compassion, that's bad.

 

He does react positively to you forgiving Ruth in Andraste's name.

 

So did the mages and he had no problem with that. If purely compassion, then by definition, he should not be judgmental.



#12
Cobra's_back

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Great Sera voice;)  "You're scary in another place." Cole

 

 

I totally agree with her on this one. Nor was I happy about him wanting to knife a dying person, reading minds, or making people forget. Humans are complex and not one dimensional. She is wise for seeing a potential problem with him.



#13
Cobra's_back

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He is supposedly the spirit of compassion, and yet he disagrees with everything compassionate or just. If you allow the Grey Wardens to stay in Orlais and help the Inquisition, he greatly disapproves... so he honestly thinks they should be punished or vilified for being tricked? Ser Ruth turns herself in afterward for your judgement, wishing for execution at the Inquisition's hand and declaring her guilt. Show compassion by refusing to judge her, as she was tricked and manipulated, then Cole disagrees. Yet, if you imprison her or exile her to the Deep Roads then he approves. When he says something and you respond with a compassionate, sympathetic, or understanding remark then he disagrees. Yet he will agree if you do the opposite of being compassionate.

 

Maybe his companion quest will give a competent explanation why all this is, but I doubt it will. The guy literally makes no sense to me.

 

 

I will give you a hint. It involves a templar and Xiltas has stated it correctly: He is no longer one-dimensional.



#14
DarkKnightHolmes

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Cole has the mind of a child. The Wardens worked with demons. Demons = Bad.


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#15
Ariella

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Cole has the mind of a child. The Wardens worked with demons. Demons = Bad.


Pretty much. He doesn't like the templars because of what happened to the original Cole, and Lambert.

You're dealing with a small child who doesn't understand the flesh and blood world. He deals in black and white.
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#16
Deztyn

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He is supposedly the spirit of compassion, and yet he disagrees with everything compassionate or just. If you allow the Grey Wardens to stay in Orlais and help the Inquisition, he greatly disapproves... so he honestly thinks they should be punished or vilified for being tricked?


They are binding demons/spirits to their will and killing people to do it. This is utterly horrifying to someone like Cole. Who hates murder. And, being a spirit, is absolutely terrified of being bound to someone elses will and made to do something that hurts people.

Have you done Solas's personal quest, 'All New, Faded for Her'? Or Cole's 'Subjected to His Will'

Those might clear up some of the big reasons Cole finds what they did so terrible.

It could also be partly due to the fact that they carry the Blight. He had some interesting things to say about Red Templars that might also apply to Grey Wardens in one of his early conversations at Skyhold.
 

Ser Ruth turns herself in afterward for your judgement, wishing for execution at the Inquisition's hand and declaring her guilt. Show compassion by refusing to judge her, as she was tricked and manipulated, then Cole disagrees. Yet, if you imprison her or exile her to the Deep Roads then he approves.


Ruth is hurting. She wants and needs judgement. Denying her that and you are dismissing her hurts not helping them.

When he says something and you respond with a compassionate, sympathetic, or understanding remark then he disagrees. Yet he will agree if you do the opposite of being compassionate.


Are talking about conversations where he asks you to kill him, bind him and such? If so, he doesn't see that as any of the things you mention. He's terrified of one day becoming a demon and killing innocent people again, he wants you to make sure he can never hurt people again. Instead of reassuring him that you won't let that happen, you're just telling him not to worry about it.
 

Maybe his companion quest will give a competent explanation why all this is, but I doubt it will. The guy literally makes no sense to me.


Cole is weird but mostly simple. If it hurts people, he doesn't like it. If someone hurts people, he doesn't like them. If something or someone might hurt others, he wants it gone.
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#17
Deztyn

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Pretty much. He doesn't like the templars because of what happened to the original Cole, and Lambert.

You're dealing with a small child who doesn't understand the flesh and blood world. He deals in black and white.


Cole likes Evangeline and Cullen just fine.

He followed the Templars because he wanted them to be there to kill him if he became a demon again.


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#18
Korva

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I find Cole pretty easy to understand, actually. Apart from what others have pointed out, let me point out that there are a few situations in which lose approval with him if you say something that's supposedly compassionate but ends up coddling him or dismissing his concerns -- which is not actually compassionate at all.

 

Cole is very much aware of how incredibly dangerous he could be, as he is aware of the fact that his actions in the White Spire were wrong. He may have been confused, frightened, unaware of broken from his true nature to the point of (almost?) having turned into a demon -- but none of that excuses killing these frightened mages. His desire to help and his determination to never again become a monster are his strongest impulses, and what he needs from the Inquisitor is to be taken seriously. Not reviled, feared or rejected for being who and what he is, but also not coddled, not babied (the way some people are all "my pwecious widdle bby" about him is really damn squicky and insulting), not wrapped in a blanket and treated like a mentally challenged invalid. He needs to know both that he is welcome and that you will stop him in any way you have to should he ever turn or be turned again. He is not a child, he is an alien being with a very strongly defined nature, senses and perceptions we can barely imagine but that are more crucial to him that sight and hearing are for us, and very different priorities. Yes, there are some complexities he can't grasp, but being different does not make him wrong or weird. As I said, I really don't find it that hard to understand him with a little effort.

 

With Ser Ruth, you're also dismissing her pain and leaving her alone with it if you refuse to judge her, which does not help her in any way. If there's anything "wrong" with the situation, it's not Cole's reactions but the fact that forgiveness is only available to a Inquisitor flagged as faithful. Mine is, and I really liked that choice, but a non-Andrastian should also have a similar option.

 

Other judgements have him favor execution over imprisonment. At odds with his nature? No, because he knows from bitter experience what imprisonment is like. Hopefully no one would be forgotten and left to starve to death in Skyhold, or subject to the sadistic whims of their jailors, but it's still a cruel and miserable existence both physically and mentally. A quick death is arguably less horrible than the conditions in a pseudo-medieval/fantasy prison.

 

As for the scene where he wants to put a dying soldier out of his misery? The setup is a really weird one because it happens at Skyhold, yet the way people are dying left and right and Cole's own remarks show that this is supposed to be the aftermath of the attack on Haven. It's one of the various annoying ways in which the game sometimes ignores time and distance. This scene should happen out in the snow, not weeks or months later in our shiny new fortress, but I guess they couldn't put it into In Your Heart Shall Burn because it would have broken the very focused narrative flow. Yet it also doesn't work as it is, in Skyhold, because of the massive timeskip. So I treated the scene the way I interpreted it to be intended, i.e. the immediate aftermath of a total disaster, and as a result had no trouble believing him when he said that there's nothing more that can be done for that man. Primitive conditions and the swift exhaustion of whatever limited resources the fleeing people managed to grab would kill many of the more badly wounded survivors.

 

Sometimes it seems that people blame Cole both for drawing any lines in the sand as to when to heal and when to fight, and for not drawing those lines often enough. He makes it very clear that he would rather not kill and finds it difficult, but those who choose to harm others have to be stopped. Having been hurt in the past in no excuse for hurting others in turn. Saving and helping those who are innocent of such crimes (or who have realized how wrong they were, stopped harming others and seek to atone) has priority. It has to have priority, or you just end up indirectly helping create more victims and suffering. Compassion doesn't mean wet blanket or punching bag -- Cole can't re-arrange the world so that cruelty, bigotry, lust for power and all our other BS "reasons" for causing each other harm suddenly stop existing, so if he wants to help the helpless, he has to make a stand against the abusers. And even in doing so, he -- unlike many -- does not forget that they are people.


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#19
Deztyn

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Korva, that was beautiful. :wub:

 

 

(Except Cole totally is weird.) :bandit:



#20
Guest_Mlady_*

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Cole is not hard to understand if you know how he thinks. Grey Wardens have not only wronged people, but the binding terrified him into his personal quest you end up doing for him. Having people around who can turn on you, bind demons and follow Corypheus is not a wise move to make. I keep them for other reasons, but in all honestly they are not safe to have around until Corypheus is gone.

 

I nearly facepalm each time my Inquisitor basically says "oh you might still get possessed, but you can kill demons, so you can stay and be a danger to us! *smiles*"

 

Where's my option to send them away until the danger's passed?


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#21
Gold Dragon

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[channels Sera] People are people, no surprise yeah. Spirits are people too. I guess. Ugh. That hurts. Cole is stupid like everyone is stupid. Doesn't mean he's always stupid. I suppose it depends on who's shoes you're wearing. Or in his case what hat. He likes hats, you know. All different ones.



Good job! Except that Sera reffers to Cole as "it", not "he".
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#22
Guest_Mlady_*

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Good job! Except that Sera reffers to Cole as "it", not "he".

 

She calls Cole "him" later on and he's so happy and grateful.


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#23
Jedi Master of Orion

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I thought she only does that if he becomes more human.



#24
Guest_Mlady_*

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I thought she only does that if he becomes more human.

 

Yep! Apparently having him as a spirit was an added option, but he was always intended to become human before they changed it, so Sera was going to start to slowly accept him as a person, though he would still maintain some of his "creepiness" that would unnerve her. Lol

 

Personally though, spirit or human, I think Sera would have gotten used to him eventually.



#25
zambingo

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I always help him to be more a spirit, but I don't believe either choice is above the other. The problem appears to be the tethering to Real Cole, both choices cut that and allow Cole to move forward.

That said, I dunno if he does this next thing in both outcomes but my favorite moment for Cole was in the post-victory party. My Quizzy said something about forgetting some of the events could be nice, then Cole is all OKAY, then the Quizzy is all WAIT and then Cole starts laughing. "It was a joke, you like jokes sometimes." This simple moment is great because it displays a tremendous growth in understanding the living world from the beginning of the game.
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