145 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkstarr11]

Values dissonance.  Remember, while he appears human, and has human traits, he is NOT human.  Therefore, he does not share human values, or beliefs.  What he considers compassion may not qualify to us.  We may say it is hypocritical, yet to a spirit this may not be the case.  A belief that all share our own values is foolhardy.  We all do it to a degree mind you, however in this case I see Cole as someone who is attempting to integrate into our world with little understanding of how it works.  His values are based upon a hodgepodge of information he has gleaned through interactions with others as well as his time as a spirit.  This is probably both terrifying and confusing.  So, if you are looking for a strict pattern as to his thought processes, you may be out of luck.  A general idea is that he doesn't like good people to get hurt, and will usually accept someone trying to make up for their mistakes.  

 

Note, I also thought Korva nailed it up there, but wanted to add my two bits.  It was well written, awesome.

[Deztyn]

Like for acknowledging that Anders screwed Justice over. Very few people seem to recognize this and give Justice all the blame for everything. Frustrating as a fan of Justice. Especially since I'm sure he's responsible for a lot of the good Anders did. As if Awakening Anders was the kind of guy who would set up in a dank dingy refugee slum and play impoverished healer. Pfft.

[BansheeOwnage]

I totally agree with her on this one. Nor was I happy about him wanting to knife a dying person, reading minds, or making people forget. Humans are complex and not one dimensional. She is wise for seeing a potential problem with him.

Actually, it's the injured person who wants Cole to knife them. He's drawn to people's thoughts when they need his help. The dying person figured they were spent, and didn't want to be in pain anymore.

[BansheeOwnage]

Justice was a good spirit, and a close friend to my Warden. Not once did he ever hint he would become Vengeance. It's only Anders' rage that caused that, and Anders himself admitted it. How can anyone blame Justice? I'm shocked to hear that. He and Cole were very unique spirits. Cole wanted to understand everything and Justice was curious about love. My squeamish female side had trouble looking at him sometimes, but I adored him.

Sorry, but... what does that even mean? The bolded part.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Mercy, like the one who granted it to a suffering Andraste. He said he was both Mercy and Compassion.\

 

 

 

I'm a tomboy woman who loves a good blood fest, but I get a bit girly and squeally at corpses that look like that. Still nearly human but decaying.

 

1. Yes, that's what I meant.

 

2. I don't see not minding/being grossed out by blood and gore as masculine or feminine traits - at all. It's kind of insulting to women and men in different ways to say that. Not trying to start a fight, just what I think.

[BansheeOwnage]

That's what I've been told all my life, since I spent most of my days in my youth playing video games with my male classmates, and would react a bit differently than them to certain scenes, and they'd call me that. It's permanently stuck in my head.

Well, I'm sorry about that. I hope that as we move forward, silly preconceptions about people like that eventually disappear Because I'm an idealist

[Deztyn]

Justice was a good spirit, and a close friend to my Warden. Not once did he ever hint he would become Vengeance. It's only Anders' rage that caused that, and Anders himself admitted it. How can anyone blame Justice? I'm shocked to hear that. He and Cole were very unique spirits. Cole wanted to understand everything and Justice was curious about love. My squeamish female side had trouble looking at him sometimes, but I adored him.

 

I'm shocked that you are shocked!

 

It was a pretty common topic for discussion after DA2 back when every other thread was an Anders thread. Even now there's a front page "Does Anyone Like Anders?" on the DA2 Scuttlebutt forum with a few posters putting much of the blame for what happened on Justice.

 

Much more accurate to say they ruined each other IMO. Anders corrupted Justice and then Justice/Vengeance went on to dominate Anders way of thinking.

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm shocked that you are shocked!

 

It was a pretty common topic for discussion after DA2 back when every other thread was an Anders thread. Even now there's a front page "Does Anyone Like Anders?" on the DA2 Scuttlebutt forum with a few posters putting much of the blame for what happened on Justice.

 

Much more accurate to say they ruined each other IMO. Anders corrupted Justice and then Justice/Vengeance went on to dominate Anders way of thinking.

Yes, it was mutually destructive. I don't blame Anders for taking in Justice, as that was an act of kindness, though risky. I also don't think Anders would have ever done what he did if Justice wasn't around. I saw some of his rivalmance on youtube, and Anders makes it pretty clear that he doesn't want to do it (before it happens), but he can't hold off Vengeance.

 

https://youtu.be/C60KCFxu5oo?t=93

 

Hawke: Whatever you planned, there's still time to stop it.

 

Anders: Yes, time... maybe there's still time. *Vengeance takes over*

 

Edit: Also, that music... so nostalgic. Sad, yet happy.

[Deztyn]

Lol I just try for logic before blame.

 

Yes I posted there. I said what I said here, Anders rage caused it. Justice might have only provoked due to his need for Justice, but Anders hate truly overwhelmed him. Like Cole with his need to help, he wont like it if you help people who hurt and gets pretty angry when you do, hinting at that demon side that lurks within still. He's quick with the Greatly Disapproves as this topic mentioned, and will outright wipe your memory and leave if he's done with you.

 

Ah. I don't think I got far enough into the thread to see your posts

 

I haven't angered Cole enough to make him leave yet. I actually have a hard time understanding how anyone can even get his approval that low. Cole approves of pretty much every sidequest you do, even when he's not there. 

[Deztyn]

Yes, it was mutually destructive. I don't blame Anders for taking in Justice, as that was an act of kindness, though risky. I also don't think Anders would have ever done what he did if Justice wasn't around. I saw some of his rivalmance on youtube, and Anders makes it pretty clear that he doesn't want to do it (before it happens), but he can't hold off Vengeance.
 
https://youtu.be/C60KCFxu5oo?t=93
 
Hawke: Whatever you planned, there's still time to stop it.
 
Anders: Yes, time... maybe there's still time. *Vengeance takes over*
 
Edit: Also, that music... so nostalgic. Sad, yet happy.

 
Yeah, on rivalmance that's definitely true. On friendship path though, without Hawke to constantly challenge Anders, they are completely in synch. Without Justice at all? Eh. Who knows how Anders would have ended up. I maintain it would not be playing benevolent healer to the unwashed masses though. That strikes me as entirely Justice's influence.

I'm a lot like him irl, so I play my Inquisitor in the same way I would make choices for real. Cole became a good friend fast, but we disagreed on the Wardens, me not wanting to kill him or bind him and not disbanding the Templars.

I'm going to have to make it a goal on one of my next playthroughs. Recruit Cole and then drive him away while still acting like a decent person and not leaving slaves locked up to become Red Lyrium farms and such.

[Deztyn]

That sounds like it would work really well my current playthrough. Straightforward Militant Qunari who favors plowing through any obstacle presented... but I hadn't planned on keeping Cole this time around because she also despises magic and the unknown and would see him and go "Argh! Die, demon! "

 

Hmmm... I shall have to think on this before I finish Champions of the Just.

 

Damn me and my need to RP everything!

[Cobra's_back]

Actually, it's the injured person who wants Cole to knife them. He's drawn to people's thoughts when they need his help. The dying person figured they were spent, and didn't want to be in pain anymore.

 

Yes mentally. I don't dislike Cole. I feel he is problematic because he reads thoughts. Humans are imperfect, and therefore reading thoughts is not just an invasion, but also an opening to being cynical. 

 

Many of the post have it right. Cole is no longer just compassion. He has the mind of a child but the body of an assassin. So many thoughts coming in and not all pure can be problematic. 

 

As for his being a demon, he was in the book Asunder. We now know thanks to Solas that they are corrupted spirits. I always do Cole's personal quest, and Solas does try to bring back Cole to his original purpose which is compassion without judgment. 

 

I believe "Dean the Young" had an excellent post on the problems of reading minds. Sorry I didn't explain this better in my earlier post.

[Cobra's_back]

Cole is not hard to understand if you know how he thinks. Grey Wardens have not only wronged people, but the binding terrified him into his personal quest you end up doing for him. Having people around who can turn on you, bind demons and follow Corypheus is not a wise move to make. I keep them for other reasons, but in all honestly they are not safe to have around until Corypheus is gone.

 

I nearly facepalm each time my Inquisitor basically says "oh you might still get possessed, but you can kill demons, so you can stay and be a danger to us! *smiles*"

 

Where's my option to send them away until the danger's passed?

 

 

True, but not all were doing the binding. It was the mages who were fully corrupted. Remember some of the warriors were voicing their opinions against this even with the pronounced calling affecting them. The problem was stated in DA2 and carried on in DAI. Something about the mages made them more vulnerable. 

 

Judging all for the actions of some is showing his biases. This makes sense because he took the ID of a mage. 

[Cobra's_back]

Ah. I don't think I got far enough into the thread to see your posts

 

I haven't angered Cole enough to make him leave yet. I actually have a hard time understanding how anyone can even get his approval that low. Cole approves of pretty much every sidequest you do, even when he's not there. 

 

 

True.

 

I never did all these things, but saw it on you tube:

 

Side with Templars -20

Side with Wardens -20

allow Empress Celene die -20

Support Gaspard -20

[nightscrawl]

He is supposedly the spirit of compassion, and yet he disagrees with everything compassionate or just. If you allow the Grey Wardens to stay in Orlais and help the Inquisition, he greatly disapproves... so he honestly thinks they should be punished or vilified for being tricked? Ser Ruth turns herself in afterward for your judgement, wishing for execution at the Inquisition's hand and declaring her guilt. Show compassion by refusing to judge her, as she was tricked and manipulated, then Cole disagrees. Yet, if you imprison her or exile her to the Deep Roads then he approves. When he says something and you respond with a compassionate, sympathetic, or understanding remark then he disagrees. Yet he will agree if you do the opposite of being compassionate.
 
Maybe his companion quest will give a competent explanation why all this is, but I doubt it will. The guy literally makes no sense to me.

You don't have to be one-dimensional to not be a hypocrite, or even the polar opposite of what he claims he wants to do for others.

 
First of all, compassion is not the same as justice. They can overlap, but not always. He's not being a hypocrite, you just have a different view on it than he does.
 
The Grey Wardens hurt a lot of people with their idiocy. Yes, idiocy. They allowed themselves to be tricked because they have a "go it alone" mentality. And yet they trusted some random Tevinter magister guy instead of, I don't know, talking to the leaders of kingdoms or something, one of which is a Warden himself (depending on import)! They were the ones Corypheus was using to assault the Divine at the Conclave, which eventually lead to the explosion, the Breach, and thousands of deaths. The same applies to Ser Ruth. Although I might add that if you instead allow her to go on an early Calling in the Deep Roads Cole does approve of that.
 
 

When he says something and you respond with a compassionate, sympathetic, or understanding remark then he disagrees. Yet he will agree if you do the opposite of being compassionate.

I'll assume this is referring to the Inquisitor's option of telling Cole, who is worried he will be manipulated into killing people, that it will be all right (or whatever the first nice choice is). The reason he disapproves of that is because he doesn't want you to be nice to him in that moment, he wants assurance that he won't hurt anyone ever again. You may think you're being nice in this instance, but you're really just increasing his anxiety over the whole thing.