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[Aren]

 

 

Sometimes it seems that people blame Cole both for drawing any lines in the sand as to when to heal and when to fight, and for not drawing those lines often enough. He makes it very clear that he would rather not kill and finds it difficult, but those who choose to harm others have to be stopped. Having been hurt in the past in no excuse for hurting others in turn. Saving and helping those who are innocent of such crimes (or who have realized how wrong they were, stopped harming others and seek to atone) has priority. It has to have priority, or you just end up indirectly helping create more victims and suffering. Compassion doesn't mean wet blanket or punching bag -- Cole can't re-arrange the world so that cruelty, bigotry, lust for power and all our other BS "reasons" for causing each other harm suddenly stop existing, so if he wants to help the helpless, he has to make a stand against the abusers. And even in doing so, he -- unlike many -- does not forget that they are people.

Beautiful post Korva!

Honestly i do not know where your analysis of Cole end,(i believe that he is one of your favourite) and your personal thought begin,but if i may if this is what you actually think,why you have not spared Loghain back in DAO?

Because what you have wrote here is exactly the reason of why i have decided to spare him, for the final redemption.

[Cobra's_back]

 

Beautiful post Korva!

Honestly i do not know where your analysis of Cole end,(i believe that he is one of your favourite) and your personal thought begin,but if i may if this is what you actually think,why you have not spared Loghain back in DAO?

Because what you have wrote here is exactly the reason of why i have decided to spare him, for the final redemption.

 

 

 

Good point and you have convinced me to spare Loghain.

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm a lot like him irl, so I play my Inquisitor in the same way I would make choices for real. Cole became a good friend fast, but we disagreed on the Wardens, me not wanting to kill him or bind him and not disbanding the Templars.

I can't remember him asking you to kill him if necessary. I don't know why. I remember him talking to Cassandra about that, but not me Also, apparently everyone needs Cassandra to keep them in check, right Cullen?

 

 
Yeah, on rivalmance that's definitely true. On friendship path though, without Hawke to constantly challenge Anders, they are completely in synch. Without Justice at all? Eh. Who knows how Anders would have ended up. I maintain it would not be playing benevolent healer to the unwashed masses though. That strikes me as entirely Justice's influence.

I think you're right about that. It's definitely due to his influence, although you could argue that it may have been Justice being merged with him, or simply Justice meeting him. In Awakening, they have banter where Justice chastises Anders for not being more active in seeking justice for mages, only hiding. I think he gets to him a bit, and could have convinced him to be more outwardly helpful by the time of DA2.

 

About Cole's approval when not present: I like to headcanon that he's always with you on excursions, but not visible, like how he followed you to Skyhold Cole, you creepy-stalker, you

[BansheeOwnage]

If you talk to him while you are waiting for the war table mission to complete regarding his amulet, he will talk to you about his fears. Your Inquisitor can even ask him if he's alright if you took him to the Fade and the Nightmare taunted him. He'll then talk about himself and the Divine's spirit.

 

Lol you do that too? I always feel he follows us in spirit form.

Ooooh, I see. I usually go adventuring while I wait for those, or crafting. I'll have to make sure I do that next time, as I was also planning to take him to Adamant. Thanks!

 

Haha yeah

[Deztyn]

Eh. Plenty of perfectly logical reasons not to spare Loghain, especially when operating purely on in character knowledge.

Final redemption for a once good man is entirely an out of character justification. The Warden doesn't know who he was before the Blight except by reputation, and only the Human Noble is likely to have an informed opinion based even on that much. During the Blight he presents as a poisonous traitorous racist usurper who has maligned and attempted to thwart and kill the Warden at every turn. Sparing him always sounds like mercy for a favorite character at the expense of Justice for people who live in universe.

[Cobra's_back]

Eh. Plenty of perfectly logical reasons not to spare Loghain, especially when operating purely on in character knowledge.

Final redemption for a once good man is entirely an out of character justification. The Warden doesn't know who he was before the Blight except by reputation, and only the Human Noble is likely to have an informed opinion based even on that much. During the Blight he presents as a poisonous traitorous racist usurper who has maligned and attempted to thwart and kill the Warden at every turn. Sparing him always sounds like mercy for a favorite character at the expense of Justice for people who live in universe.

 

 

Sound reasoning. I remember playing the city elf and hating the guy after I found out he was selling my people.

[Deztyn]

I can't remember him asking you to kill him if necessary. I don't know why. I remember him talking to Cassandra about that, but not me Also, apparently everyone needs Cassandra to keep them in check, right Cullen?

 
This is one of the many reasons I love Cass. She's solid and dependable and the sort of person you can count on to make the hard choice for the greater good.

I think you're right about that. It's definitely due to his influence, although you could argue that it may have been Justice being merged with him, or simply Justice meeting him. In Awakening, they have banter where Justice chastises Anders for not being more active in seeking justice for mages, only hiding. I think he gets to him a bit, and could have convinced him to be more outwardly helpful by the time of DA2.

Possibly.

I generally imagined Anders setting up with some rich ill noble, living in the lap of luxury while tending to her ills. (This may partly be due to my love of Royal Pains.)
 

About Cole's approval when not present: I like to headcanon that he's always with you on excursions, but not visible, like how he followed you to Skyhold Cole, you creepy-stalker, you

That's how I choose to view it too.

I was also thinking that if they decide to use Cole in further games, they could easily choose to say that he's there with you the entire time, even when we've sent him away. Doing good for the Inquisition that we never see.

[Deztyn]

Already a bit derailed. May as well keep going.

 

I won't change topic with this, but I'll just explain my reason.
 
For me, my Warden spends the whole game giving everyone a chance no matter their origin, so of course he will get one too. However, Grey Wardens are not what Alistair thinks, and some are downright bad. Duncan was not a good man either, but since Riordan was insistent that more Grey Wardens were needed and he was the senior one, I was going to trust him since Duncan was gone. Duncan himself would have suggested the same thing no doubt. Alistair made a damn good King alongside Anora too. And I never saw Loghain as a blood thirsty murderer. He even questioned Howe about sending Zevran, then regretfully told him to just get it done. That was also why they had hardly any money. Zevran was expensive! So the elf slave thing happened. Howe was a major influence and did most of the dirty work. Still would have liked to see what happened if he was offered a chance to be spared or jailed for later. Howe's death was so... boring.

 
This is the sort of thing I mean by out of character knowledge. The Warden isn't going to know that. Only the player does.

 

And I'm not talking about Alistair's feelings when I talk about justice. Alistair doesn't have to be the principle reason. He's responsible for the Civil War in Ferelden, he's blocked the Orlesian Wardens from coming to help with the Blight, he's blamed our Warden for Cailan's death, sold the City Elves into slavery, poisoned Eamon (which can lead to the deaths of everyone in Redcliffe) he's also more indirectly responsible for the uprising in the Circle as well. And he hasn't done much of anything to show the Warden that he's an honorable man who will honestly dedicate his life to the Wardens.

 

Although, giving a man who has stood by you through everything, even if your approval is at rock bottom and he hates your guts a chance to get a little personal justice isn't terrible reasoning I think.
 

Anyways, we all play the game our own way, but I think the only time I am bugged is when someone kills Loghain just because they are romancing Alistair. Speaking as a woman, if a guy is capable of not only leaving me because I spared a man he hated for logical reasons, or dumped me because I was not of noble blood, he deserves nothing. Zevran stayed with me to the end. Never scorn a woman. LOL

 

Alistair dumps the human noble if she doesn't marry him too, he won't keep her as a mistress.This is a foreseeable consequence of making the man king. He's going to have to act like one even if he's not happy about it.

 

And really Loghain killed one of his father figures and nearly killed the other. I'd say it's his lover scorning him in that case by not allowing Loghain to properly answer for his crimes. Forcing him to marry his daughter is just rubbing salt in the wound.

[Deztyn]

Oh I know, but the player is meant to see that for a reason (like knowing he won't kill me in camp later LOL). But as I said, my Warden will trust her superior and he says they need more Wardens, so by any means necessary she will have it happen, like Duncan did. Also my Warden had both Anora and Ser Cauthrien begging her to stop his madness and save him, so I took that into consideration too.

 

Harden him. Alistair will keep you as a mistress if he's hardened and Loghain is dead. Or marry him. 

 

As for his reasons, yeah they are justified, but he is a Grey Warden and should act like one. Same with me. I'm one and they make me involved in politics and that should not happen. Duncan is rolling in his grave.

 

I enjoyed sharing views with you, but let's not go off topic anymore than we have.   My fault for that.

 

Hmm… I remember reading somewhere that the Human Noble had to be married to stay with Alistair, that mistress wasn’t an option for her. Never tried it myself. If I’m going to be a Human Noble and romance him, may as well be Queen. Still need to get around to doing the political only marriage with him... while keeping my own ridiculously awesome sexy elven side dish. There's only so many times you can play a Lady Cousland.

 

And, honestly, I don’t care why people choose to spare or not spare Loghain in their games. Everyone’s entitled to play the game how they want. Lord knows there are times when I build a PCs characterization entirely around my metagame knowledge.

 

I just object to the notion that there are no logical reasons to have him executed, and people do it for entirely personal reasons. Or for that matter, that there is anything objectively wrong with choosing execution because of personal reasons. Loghain is guilty of more than enough to deserve execution by Ferelden standards, choosing that over a lesser form of punishment because of the personal nature of his wrongdoing or because the Warden is being considerate of Alistair’s feelings, doesn’t make his execution less justified.

 

Choosing to spare him because a senior warden you’ve known for a very short time suggests it might be a good idea without properly explaining himself or because a few other strangers insist he is good man who needs redemption despite the wardens personal experiences is not inherently superior character reasoning. Just different reasoning for a different type of character.

 

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, but if you want to continue the debate it we could take it to a more appropriate forum.

 

 

Unless you want to steer this towards "How would Cole approve of the way we judge Loghain?" that might be considered vaguely on-topic.

[Cobra's_back]

Hmm… I remember reading somewhere that the Human Noble had to be married to stay with Alistair, that mistress wasn’t an option for her. Never tried it myself. If I’m going to be a Human Noble and romance him, may as well be Queen. Still need to get around to doing the political only marriage with him... while keeping my own ridiculously awesome sexy elven side dish. There's only so many times you can play a Lady Cousland.

 

And, honestly, I don’t care why people choose to spare or not spare Loghain in their games. Everyone’s entitled to play the game how they want. Lord knows there are times when I build a PCs characterization entirely around my metagame knowledge.

 

I just object to the notion that there are no logical reasons to have him executed, and people do it for entirely personal reasons. Or for that matter, that there is anything objectively wrong with choosing execution because of personal reasons. Loghain is guilty of more than enough to deserve execution by Ferelden standards, choosing that over a lesser form of punishment because of the personal nature of his wrongdoing or because the Warden is being considerate of Alistair’s feelings, doesn’t make his execution less justified.

 

Choosing to spare him because a senior warden you’ve known for a very short time suggests it might be a good idea without properly explaining himself or because a few other strangers insist he is good man who needs redemption despite the wardens personal experiences is not inherently superior character reasoning. Just different reasoning for a different type of character.

 

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, but if you want to continue the debate it we could take it to a more appropriate forum.

 

 

Unless you want to steer this towards "How would Cole approve of the way we judge Loghain?" that might be considered vaguely on-topic.

 

I know guys that execute him as well. Loghain doesn't come off as being trust worthy at all. It is lame for Loghain to say it was all Howe's doing. He allowed it, and therefore, is to blame as well. 

 

The only character I have that can even consider keeping him alive is the noble dwarf. He would be at least use to this kind of backstabbing.

 

Well that way fun. DAO was one of my favorite games.

[Aren]

.Loghain is guilty of more than enough to deserve execution by Ferelden standards

The Warden can engage in criminal acts like murder (Denerim but also throughout the game) and flout Chantry authority (Mage's Collective), things that Loghain is condemned for and are seen as irredeemable acts but for us it's different because "We're Wardens". 

 the game doesn't sufficiently and adequately challenge the players on their decisions, and even if it did I doubt it'd do much for a lot of people who are convinced they will always hold the moral high ground because they're the protagonist. Unless they're savvy enough to get that the Wardens are shady from the game (which they indeed are). Problem is that the narrative holds us up as paragons of virtue and honor and heroically valiant warriors -- things that the naive like Alistair believe and are untrue.

 

 

again sorry i have changed  this topic..................  

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

On the original topic, I too don't get the wubbable feelz people get for that mind-raping demon.  I never take him on missions, and wish I could perma-kill him.

[Cobra's_back]

Sorry you feel that way. He's one of the loyalist friends you can ever have, and he will never hurt you or anyone with you. He does nothing but good deeds. He's not what he once was and I think he deserves a chance, but it's your game.

 

Per the game, but you don't know the future. He will never hurt, is not certain when he can read minds.

 

 

Who do you know that is pure with their thoughts all the time? He sees what others have chosen not to be seen. That is the problem. In the real world with imperfect humans he would be hearing things he should not. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Per the game, but you don't know the future. He will never hurt, is not certain when he can read minds.

 

 

Who do you know that is pure with their thoughts all the time? He sees what others have chosen not to be seen. That is the problem. In the real world with imperfect humans he would be hearing things he should not. 

You don't need to be a mind reader to see the evil in people. And Cole is not a slave to his emotions, he has to choose to be a demon. If he gives in to the cynacism, and becomes a monster then yes he could be corrupted but that's not to say he is fated to be corrupted. It's not about being pure, it's about always finding a reason to continue to believe in being good or a spirit. Just like any human or elf, I believe Cole gets to choose his nature. As Solas says, "While the world may exert a pull in one direction or another, the choice is ultimately [Coles]."

[BansheeOwnage]

On the original topic, I too don't get the wubbable feelz people get for that mind-raping demon.  I never take him on missions, and wish I could perma-kill him.

If you don't think Cole is a good person, to the point of wanting to kill him, I bet your world would be pretty empty.

[Korva]

@Deztyn and Darkstarr11: Thank you. Cole is a great character, beautifully written and acted, and while everyone has the right to their own opinion, I dislike seeing him misjudged or thoughtlessly written off.

 

I will always save the Wardens and I'm sorry he doesn't like that, but he doesn't understand everything.

 

I do wish it was possible to talk about some of the big choices with our companions and advisors. If they disapprove, we could explain our reasons to them. My go-to party is Cole, Cassandra and Solas, all of whom don't want to keep the Wardens around. Between their disapproval, the grueling trip to the Fade and the revelations there, the death of Hawke and who knows how many Inquisition soldiers, the aftermath of Adamant must have been one of the hardest "lonely burdens of command" moments for my Inquisitor.

 

 I feel he is problematic because he reads thoughts. Humans are imperfect, and therefore reading thoughts is not just an invasion, but also an opening to being cynical.

 

Cole is about as non-cynical as you can get, especially when he embraces his original nature. When it comes to his "mind-reading", I think it's important to keep in mind that he most likely literally can't not do it. Feeling thoughts and emotions, both in the living and in long-ago memories imprinted on places and objects, is a core part of who and what he is. It's like sight or hearing for us, except even more important -- a human who loses these senses is no less human for it, but for a spirit like Cole to lose or be told to suppress his empathy would put him on the slippery slope to demonhood.

 

He could do with a better grasp on the concept of privacy and timing when it comes to spilling someone's personal thoughts in front of others, though.

 

He has the mind of a child but the body of an assassin.

 

He doesn't have the mind of a child. He's an alien being in a strange and hostile world, and considering that and everything he's been through, I daresay he navigates this world and his existence in it a damn sight better than most humans (dwarves, elves, whatever) would if they were thrown into a comparable situation.
 

 This is one of the many reasons I love Cass. She's solid and dependable and the sort of person you can count on to make the hard choice for the greater good.

 

I love her, too. She's definitely my second favourite after Cole, and though they have a rocky start, it's great to see them growing close over the course of the game. "Faith seeks a friend in Compassion" and all.

[Cobra's_back]

You don't need to be a mind reader to see the evil in people. And Cole is not a slave to his emotions, he has to choose to be a demon. If he gives in to the cynacism, and becomes a monster then yes he could be corrupted but that's not to say he is fated to be corrupted. It's not about being pure, it's about always finding a reason to continue to believe in being good or a spirit. Just like any human or elf, I believe Cole gets to choose his nature. As Solas says, "While the world may exert a pull in one direction or another, the choice is ultimately [Coles]."

 

Keyword I used was "you don't know the future" and "is not certain when he can read minds". I'm not saying for certain. Humans can't read minds. I tend to look at things more in terms of variables either working together or against each other. Like I said earlier "Dean the Young" had a full page write that was perfect. The mind reading is the problem. It is not just mind rape, but it can lead to problems for Cole as well.

 

In the raw fade in Adamant his fear was despair(tombstone). It fits.

 

Let's try to put it another way. Humans communicate the thoughts they want another person to know. Reading someone's thoughts is like raising the noise floor, and getting in the way of the actual thoughts the person wanted to communicate.

 

( Sum of thoughts being read as a function of time) - ( Maturity as a function of time) has a direct correlation to instability. In this case despair makes sense. 

 

 

In summary, I never said certain or he will.  I see a higher probability because reading thoughts in combination with lack of problem solving skills due to being a child can lead to instability.