It will probably depend on the path we chose. I made him more human in my PT. Perhaps we will see if any of our choices count. They musty be listed in the Keep for a reason.
True. More human and less reading thoughts sounds like the right path for a healthy Cole. 
@Deztyn and Darkstarr11: Thank you.
Cole is about as non-cynical as you can get, especially when he embraces his original nature. When it comes to his "mind-reading", I think it's important to keep in mind that he most likely literally can't not do it. Feeling thoughts and emotions, both in the living and in long-ago memories imprinted on places and objects, is a core part of who and what he is. It's like sight or hearing for us, except even more important -- a human who loses these senses is no less human for it, but for a spirit like Cole to lose or be told to suppress his empathy would put him on the slippery slope to demonhood.
I'm not asking him to lose or suppress his empathy. To be honest I would encourage the far eastern approach of balance and meditation to come to terms with all the information flooding him.
I thought the game was clear Cole read thoughts. He can actually get in someone's head and does several time. I see the potential for imbalance there.
The ability to actually read thoughts from someone's head without the proper filters ( as in person's shared feeling) is the problem. Increasing a person's ability to come to turns with these thought is part of maturity and takes time.
I'm sorry if I offended.
I'm not asking him to lose or suppress his empathy. To be honest I would encourage the far eastern approach of balance and meditation to come to terms with all the information flooding him.
I thought the game was clear Cole read thoughts. He can actually get in someone's head and does several time. I see the potential for imbalance there.
The ability to actually read thoughts from someone's head without the proper filters ( as in person's shared feeling) is the problem. Increasing a person's ability to come to turns with these thought is part of maturity and takes time.
I'm sorry if I offended.
Well every spirit in the fade reads your thoughts just as much. Every time you sleep, the fade and spirits practically mind scans you. The fade and spirits know your deepest secrets, your most precious memories, your darkest and happiest thoughts... Everything. They then use that info to make dreams for you. If you find that creepy, then you just have to accept that the fade is creepy in general. The only difference with Cole is that you actually meet him and talk to him, but he's no different than any other spirit. There are no secrets to creatures from the fade, and nothing private to them. Your entire being is bare for them to see, whether you dislike it or not.
Well every spirit in the fade reads your thoughts just as much. Every time you sleep, the fade and spirits practically mind scans you. The fade and spirits know your deepest secrets, your most precious memories, your darkest and happiest thoughts... Everything. They then use that info to make dreams for you. If you find that creepy, then you just have to accept that the fade is creepy in general. The only difference with Cole is that you actually meet him and talk to him, but he's no different than any other spirit. There are no secrets to creatures from the fade, and nothing private to them. Your entire being is bare for them to see, whether you dislike it or not.
The difference is spirits are in the fade the dream world not in the real world. When you wake they are gone. That sounds like a reasonable place for them to exist in their natural domain.
The difference is spirits are in the fade the dream world not in the real world. When you wake they are gone. That sounds like a reasonable place for them to exist in their natural domain.
They are gone in that you left them for a bit, but the spirits still know everything about you... And you will visit them again the next time you sleep.
Beautiful post Korva!
Thank you!
Off-topic opinion on Loghain under the spoiler cut:
They are gone in that you left them for a bit, but the spirits still know everything about you... And you will visit them again the next time you sleep.
That is not the problem. The domain is everything here.
Guest_Mlady_*
Thank you!
Off-topic opinion on Loghain under the spoiler cut:
Spoiler
You basically kick some sense into him since no one else will do it. Lol and he does show regret and even wants to do the sacrifice and refuses to let you do it. He says he's old and you're young and should live. And if you have a LI he tries to talk you out of the sacrifice by mentioning them too. I pull the same tactic on him with Anora when we argue over who'll die. Lol
Talking with him was really interesting. He even says a few good things about Alistair, and you get to see his side of things especially if you take him and Wynne to Ostagar. And he not once denies his actions, though he explains some of them if you ask. No matter what you say though, he wants to die. Explains why he's so resigned when you choose to kill him at the Landsmeet. He only stops feeling that way in Awakening. He's starting a new life in Orlais with the Grey Wardens, and stops by to say good bye to you and gives you some gifts from the Estate. And then we see him again in DAI, investigating Corypheus, and by then, not even the Nightmare can upset him when pointing out what he did in DAO. "Is that the best you've got? I've been telling myself that for years!" Lol
I would say people should save him once and see what they think. Don't like it, feed him to the Archdemon. LOL
And I agree about wishing we could explain things to our companions in DAI. If we could still persuade them, it would be less annoying when we make a choice that has a logical reason they seem to miss. Sometimes I felt like a mutiny could occur in DAI.
I'm not asking him to lose or suppress his empathy. To be honest I would encourage the far eastern approach of balance and meditation to come to terms with all the information flooding him.
There are things about his existence in this world that he should learn and is learning, but his senses are not a problem he needs to come to terms with. If you push him away from his spirit side, he -- like most people -- might indeed benefit from meditation or similar lessons in self-control and and self-examination to deal with the new and/or strengthened human impulses. More-spirit-Cole already has a calmer, more controlled and confident attitude from reaffirming his original nature and purpose.
I thought the game was clear Cole read thoughts. He can actually get in someone's head and does several time.
Yes, his empathy has that "active" side when he needs to go deeper to find the source or cure of a hurt, but also the "passive" side of constant awareness of both current and ancient thoughts and emotions around him. I imagine that it is a lot like our mundane senses. We pick up and process sight, touch, smell and hearing every waking moment without focusing on or even being consciously aware that our body and mind are doing it. And we can focus these senses if something specifically demands our attention. Cole doesn't randomly dig into people's minds, he responds to something "calling" for him and pulling him to those who need him. Envy's attack on the Herald. Solas' grief for Wisdom. Cassandra's bout of insecurity about the source of her faith. Blackwall's tremendous guilt. And so on. We can see blood seeping from a physical wound, hear crying or screams of pain, feel a broken bone or a lodged splinter under the skin regardless of whether or not the injured person intends to communicate any of this to us. He perceives mental/emotional wounds and needs in the same way.
I'm sorry if I offended.
No worries! I just wish some people wouldn't dismiss the character so readily or treat him (and his nature as a spirit in particular) as defective, inferior or flat-out wrong just because he isn't exactly like us. In a way, we can learn as much from him as he can from us, including moving away from unreflected humanocentrism and instead making more of an effort to understand and respect a different, alien point of view.
The difference is spirits are in the fade the dream world not in the real world. When you wake they are gone.
I'm pretty sure they are always there and can perceive what is happening in the physical world, dreams or no dreams. It's just that mortals usually don't knowingly interact with them -- but just because we can't see something doesn't mean it's not real.
Cole is such a wonderful character because it is so easy to RP your various Inkys to have vastly different reactions to him. Embrace his spirit nature, freak out and not even let him join, wary acceptance, and the whole range in between them. He is just a great opportunity for you to really flesh out how your Inky feels about the fade, spirits, magic, the whole ball of wax.
That said, personally, as a real life person, I'd be kind of resentful of him, I think, because I feel it is a -gross- violation of my personal privacy to go rummaging around in my brain.
There are things about his existence in this world that he should learn and is learning, but his senses are not a problem he needs to come to terms with. If you push him away from his spirit side, he -- like most people -- might indeed benefit from meditation or similar lessons in self-control and and self-examination to deal with the new and/or strengthened human impulses. More-spirit-Cole already has a calmer, more controlled and confident attitude from reaffirming his original nature and purpose.
Yes, his empathy has that "active" side when he needs to go deeper to find the source or cure of a hurt, but also the "passive" side of constant awareness of both current and ancient thoughts and emotions around him. I imagine that it is a lot like our mundane senses. We pick up and process sight, touch, smell and hearing every waking moment without focusing on or even being consciously aware that our body and mind are doing it. And we can focus these senses if something specifically demands our attention. Cole doesn't randomly dig into people's minds, he responds to something "calling" for him and pulling him to those who need him. Envy's attack on the Herald. Solas' grief for Wisdom. Cassandra's bout of insecurity about the source of her faith. Blackwall's tremendous guilt. And so on. We can see blood seeping from a physical wound, hear crying or screams of pain, feel a broken bone or a lodged splinter under the skin regardless of whether or not the injured person intends to communicate any of this to us. He perceives mental/emotional wounds and needs in the same way.
No worries! I just wish some people wouldn't dismiss the character so readily or treat him (and his nature as a spirit in particular) as defective, inferior or flat-out wrong just because he isn't exactly like us. In a way, we can learn as much from him as he can from us, including moving away from unreflected humanocentrism and instead making more of an effort to understand and respect a different, alien point of view.
I'm pretty sure they are always there and can perceive what is happening in the physical world, dreams or no dreams. It's just that mortals usually don't knowingly interact with them -- but just because we can't see something doesn't mean it's not real.
Your comment:"I'm pretty sure they are always there and can perceive what is happening in the physical world, dreams or no dreams. It's just that mortals usually don't knowingly interact with them -- but just because we can't see something doesn't mean it's not real."
I didn't understand this. I thought they were only in the fade,dream world, and not the physical world. The rip in the fade brought so many down into the physical world and they were angry because there was so much noise (rip in the fade another dimension or plane).
Your comment:" I just wish some people wouldn't dismiss the character so readily or treat him (and his nature as a spirit in particular) as defective, inferior or flat-out wrong just because he isn't exactly like us."
I'm not one of those people, and I'm not sure if others feel that way. To understand nature is to understand that we don't expect all species to behave like humans. It doesn't mean they are inferior. It does mean they are different, and usually require a special skill set to work with them. To me it is a bigger insult to expect them to be just like us or think they can easily adapt. It also means that we should respect their natural nature if we are to learn.
Cole states that the spirits are angry because of too much noise. If there is too much noise it is hard to process the signal. I can easily see why the spirits are angry.
They are not inferior. They are different and are best suit in their natural domain. Which I thought was the dream world. Living in the dream world would naturally have a different set of skills than having a physical body. Solas wants to move him into being more of a spirit. I totally agree we should not demand someone or something to change its nature, but he seems to be trap with a physical body. My understanding of nature is that when an environment is changed greatly in a short period of time, there usually is not enough time to adapt properly. The other scary thing is that the game gives the impression that just a few short talk fixes everything.
Now being this is high fantasy, and not real world it doesn't matter. The writer can do whatever they want. It maybe that people are responding to the "this is not very believable".
We have to keep in mind that to him death is a form of compassion. Be it to kill a miserable person or to kill a "bad" person
As for the Gray Wardens, they hurt a lot of people and they hurt alot of spirits/demons. If he had it his way he'd kill the wardens to prevent them from hurting people.
Guest_Mlady_*
We have to keep in mind that to him death is a form of compassion. Be it to kill a miserable person or to kill a "bad" person
As for the Gray Wardens, they hurt a lot of people and they hurt alot of spirits/demons. If he had it his way he'd kill the wardens to prevent them from hurting people.
This is very true. Some see Cole as a child, but I see him as an alien trying to learn of a world he never grew up in and how to function in it properly. Justice was similar. He started off with his focus on justifying what Mother had done, but than he started to want to learn about love after meeting Kristoff's wife. Love was strange to him, so he became fascinated by it. Cole knew of only killing to end pain, and now that he sees there are other ways, he's trying to explore them.
I love when I tell him not to kill the injured man and see if he might live through the Healer's. Cole looks at him and whispers "try" and right there I knew he wanted to be a better person/spirit. As he said "Spirit, I prefer to be called Spirit"
On the original topic, I too don't get the wubbable feelz people get for that mind-raping demon. I never take him on missions, and wish I could perma-kill him.
Probably because the people that like him, like myself, don't perceive what he does as "mind rape."
I think it's a thin line, and can understand why some people might feel that way. For me the difference is in Cole's very being.
As a comparison let's take a blood mage who manipulates an unwilling person's mind, or even a non-blood mage using entropy spells. These are a clear violation of a person's mind, and depending on the person, can be more damaging than a physical one. In these instances a person's mental sanctity is being maliciously violated with the intent to cause harm, either to the victim or others through the victim. But that is not the case with Cole.
Cole can't help that he feels other people's pain and has access to their (pain related) thoughts. It is quite difficult for him to block other people out and doesn't get easier unless you decide to make him more human; even then, it only partly works because he himself is "louder" so it's more difficult to hear other people unless he focuses on them. He doesn't do it intentionally or with the intent to harm. Hearing and feeling other people is just a part of who he is.
I suppose he could just remain silent about what he hears and feels out of politeness. (I ask this non-sarcastically) Would that make you feel better? If you (the player), were aware that he was walking around feeling and hearing these things, but he never said or did anything about it -- either with you (the Inquisitor), your followers (i.e. the banter), or other NPCs? But he doesn't really have any filters that would allow him to do that. Again, some of that is mitigated when you make him more human.
As an aside... I do have a wonder about his banter series with Dorian. He doesn't address the issue until Dorian gives him leave to ask questions. Would he never have brought up the subject if Dorian hadn't given permission? Clearly there is some sort of filter at work in that instance. From the dialog, and the fact that he asks questions about it, it seems to me that he sees Dorian's pain, but is so confused by all of the related thoughts and feelings -- a lot more complicated than feeling responsible for a brother's death because one snuck out to get a kiss -- that he has to actually ask about them before he can try to help; having mixed results on Dorian's part.
Guest_Mlady_*
Cole also reads the mind of the Inquisitor who is having sex with IB. I doubt it's perversion, but I wonder if he's sensing unease from them regarding their slight fear of IB, since the warning to stop is always a breath away from their lips as he states.
^ Woah, I had no idea.
I understand the reason the devs weren't able to have more Cole-reads-Inquisitor stuff (even the one you mention is dicey in terms of RP, since that might not be the case at all), but it would have been nice if there were more instances of it in the game. Hearing Cole go through all of the followers and yet saying nothing about my Inquisitor is kinda... I dunno... I feel some sort of loss, or that something is lacking. This is particularly true in my case as I RP my Inquisitor having serious doubts and other issues as a result of the Fade trip at Adamant. But again, the game can't possibly know that, so it's just generally safer to err on the side of caution and not have anything at all, or very little as the case may be.
Guest_Mlady_*
Cole will also comment on Lavellan's shame when Solas dumps her, but that one makes more sense than IB's sexy times. Cole tends to read a lot of the party's sexual thoughts and voices them loudly to the humiliation of some, and arousal of others.
Whether human-like or more-spirit Cole acts more mindfully and with control. When Cole speaks of spirits ripped from the Fade being confused and angry at the noise, it is plausible and reasonable to assume he's projecting how he is or was onto them. Projecting is a loaded term nowadays, but it doesn't necessarily mean what you're thinking about something is wrong. Cole has keen insight here. These rift deposited spirits could be tethered similar to Cole*, which as evidenced in Cole is a state of being that twists perception and causes distress.
*Cole according to his spirit-role was attracted to the need for help by Real Cole so he left the Fade and unintentionally became attached to the pain he witnessed. Then finding he could not release himself from this pain Cole went about existing as what his perception was telling him he must be. These spirits/now demons seem drawn to the rifts and then possibly find themselves unable to be released from it. The powerful raw nature of a rift possibly being a factor in the instantaneous perversion, whereas Cole was changing over time.
Further Solas states his plan for the world during our first conversation with him in Haven. In many ways his plan is what the Breach and the Rifts are doing, sundering the distance between solid and spirit. Coryface is just too dumb, twisted the plan and/or the Quizzy intervening with Justina ironically and inadvertently fubared the plan which facilitates Corypant's march. Whatever occurred created a state seemingly like what Solas planned but with brutality and pain. It is plausible Solas would have made the changes at a more gradual pace and being mindful of the spirits natures he was bringing thru.
In closing Cole seems to be a serendipitous (in game wise) personification of Solas' overall plan.
Yes, I totally agree. Sometimes I get locked on wanting to understand more details. It can be very frustrating.
I do believe you see it clearly. He is there to shed light on Solas.
Guest_Mlady_*
Yes, I totally agree. Sometimes I get locked on wanting to understand more details. It can be very frustrating.
I do believe you see it clearly. He is there to shed light on Solas.
And he comes close to doing it, so Solas erases his thoughts before he leaves. Cole came too close too many times. It was almost a tease by BW. Lol
I didn't understand this. I thought they were only in the fade,dream world, and not the physical world.
Sorry, I should have phrased that better. I didn't mean they exist in the physical world (except for the poor bastard who were forcefully yanked across, as you say), but that they can sense and are drawn to what is happening here. They're not "gone" when a mortal wakes up, though we (usually) wouldn't be aware of them. And apparently they -- or at least some of them? -- can influence people in the waking world to some degree or another, for good or ill. Examples include the faith-spirits who restore Seekers during their vigil, or the Nightmare putting the false Calling into the Wardens' heads.
To understand nature is to understand that we don't expect all species to behave like humans. It doesn't mean they are inferior. It does mean they are different, and usually require a special skill set to work with them. To me it is a bigger insult to expect them to be just like us or think they can easily adapt. It also means that we should respect their natural nature if we are to learn.
Exactly! That is a big part of why I like Cole so much, and why the spirit-path (which is canon for me) fascinates me. It's both a challenge and an opportunity to develop that "special skill set", to learn in with and from him at the same time as we try to help him make sense of the more confusing aspects of existing in the state he is currently in. Both people who dismiss him as defective and people who want to treat him as a child they have to baby and "raise" miss half the point of the character, IMO, which is that learning opportunity, that challenge to open and broaden one's own mind.
They are not inferior. They are different and are best suit in their natural domain. Which I thought was the dream world. Living in the dream world would naturally have a different set of skills than having a physical body.
True, but Cole (thankfully IMO) isn't as tethered to his body than we are to ours, so the skill set he needs isn't the quite same as ours either. He does not have to practice combat skill, or eat or sleep, but he does need to integrate having a body with his special empathy and the drive to aid others. On the more-human path, he does that by developing a greater first-hand understanding of human customs. On the more-spirit path, both his empathy and his ability to go unnoticed grow stronger and he acts much like I imagine a non-embodied spirit would (unless he deliberately reveals himself), with the added benefit of being able to physically interact if needed. Either way, he becomes better at handling the pain of others without unnerving them.
My understanding of nature is that when an environment is changed greatly in a short period of time, there usually is not enough time to adapt properly. The other scary thing is that the game gives the impression that just a few short talk fixes everything.
Yes, which is sadly the norm with this sort of game. To really do characters justice, especially a character like Cole, would require much more than being an optional follower with a single, short optional personal mission. I do wish Bioware would focus more on their characters and cut out the pseudo-open-world filler content, or multiplayer, or anything that detracts from a strong character-and-story-focus. If I want multiplayer or free-roaming or heavy-duty combat, I'll play games that are much better suited for that.
Still, what we see of Cole isn't the whole story of his adaption to the physical world. As I said before, he's already come a remarkably long way on his own after the shock of forcefully being revealed as a "demon" by the previous Lord Seeker. He's still hurt and sometimes unsure of himself and does make mistakes, but with friends and a place where he is welcome, he manages to make further big strides in overcoming that.
Cole will also comment on Lavellan's shame when Solas dumps her, but that one makes more sense than IB's sexy times. Cole tends to read a lot of the party's sexual thoughts and voices them loudly to the humiliation of some, and arousal of others.
Ha, that makes me kind of happy I didn't romance anyone. The horror.
Very beautiful post Korva.
Thank you
Ha, that makes me kind of happy I didn't romance anyone. The horror.
I agree. I didn't as well because I wanted to think things out without being worried if a love interest cared about it.
Guest_Mlady_*
Ha, that makes me kind of happy I didn't romance anyone. The horror.
When Solas joins in, it gets kinky. 
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