145 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Yes, which is sadly the norm with this sort of game. To really do characters justice, especially a character like Cole, would require much more than being an optional follower with a single, short optional personal mission. I do wish Bioware would focus more on their characters and cut out the pseudo-open-world filler content, or multiplayer, or anything that detracts from a strong character-and-story-focus. If I want multiplayer or free-roaming or heavy-duty combat, I'll play games that are much better suited for that.

I definitely agree that I want the story/characters to be the focus, especially over filler etc. but I don't think multiplayer detracts from that. They seem very separate in terms of development and probably budget. I don't know for sure though. I for one am very happy ME3 had multiplayer, because I would have barely touched the game otherwise, and MP was LOADS of fun. The money generated from microtransactions (which were done the best way I've seen) paved the way for 5 free DLCs for MP, and if I guessed, helped funding for SP DLC too.

 

Sorry about the tangent. Yeah, focus on story Bioware

[BansheeOwnage]

When Solas joins in, it gets kinky. 

I think they should stay away from implying anything about what the Inquisitor likes, as someone mentioned before That might be because I feel quite differently about such things than most people I meet.

[Korva]

This is very true. Some see Cole as a child, but I see him as an alien trying to learn of a world he never grew up in and how to function in it properly.

 

Indeed. Calling it the mother of all culture shocks would still be an understatement.

 

I love when I tell him not to kill the injured man and see if he might live through the Healer's. Cole looks at him and whispers "try" and right there I knew he wanted to be a better person/spirit. As he said "Spirit, I prefer to be called Spirit"

 

I like that the game doesn't judge you for whatever you pick in that scene, that both outcomes are treated as valid. Either way shows his kindness and deep drive to help.

 

Cole can't help that he feels other people's pain and has access to their (pain related) thoughts. It is quite difficult for him to block other people out and doesn't get easier unless you decide to make him more human; even then, it only partly works because he himself is "louder" so it's more difficult to hear other people unless he focuses on them. He doesn't do it intentionally or with the intent to harm. Hearing and feeling other people is just a part of who he is.

 

Exactly. There's no blame in the situation, not on him for having the senses he does, and not on the suffering people for "broadcasting" their distress. In other circumstances, if he were human or a demon doing it for kicks and giggles or with the outright desire to harm, it would be a different matter altogether -- and he knows that. He is very well aware of how dangerous he could be. That's an awareness that far from all humans possess, despite our superior grasp of complex issues. From the start, he's very firm and explicit about urging others to kill him if he ever turns again.

 

As an aside... I do have a wonder about his banter series with Dorian. He doesn't address the issue until Dorian gives him leave to ask questions. Would he never have brought up the subject if Dorian hadn't given permission? Clearly there is some sort of filter at work in that instance.

 

Good question. He clearly does have filters, and the ability to back off, or he would have spilled both Solas' and Blackwall's secrets. I wonder how much of that is "for the sake of the story, Cole can only drop hints" -- Solas may be very good at controlling himself and at gently steering Cole's impulses towards other people, but Blackwall's shame, guilt and fear of discovery must have been an open wound all along, albeit suppressed. Was it that fear of discovery that prompted Cole to stay quiet, since he perceives that Blackwall is no longer a threat to innocent people?

 

I think he would have brought Dorian's pain up eventually if it wasn't dealt with otherwise, but the complexity of that hideous tangle of that betrayed love and trust is likely indeed what made him more careful. Both his human-side understanding and his spirit-side empathy are not yet strong enough to handle this confidently. Dorian's personality might also play a part in it? He doesn't trust easily to say the least, and he wiggles like a hooked worm to keep this sort of attention off him because it makes him vulnerable to further rejection and abuse. Maybe Cole's instincts tell him that he needs a bit of a trust/friendship foundation before Dorian would even consider letting him touch this. And since he's a gentle and friendly fellow, he wants that connection with the inner circle anyway.

 

I think they should stay away from implying anything about what the Inquisitor likes, as someone mentioned before That might be because I feel quite differently about such things than most people I meet.

 

Ugh, yes. I don't even have a nug in this race (as Varric would say) because I'm asexual/aromantic, but the thought of an NPC defining my character for me in that way still squicks the sh*t out of me and is one reason why I dislike the Iron Bull. Our characters get pitifully little attention for their thoughts and feelings as it is and are mainly stuck as enablers for the NPCs' characterization. Shouldn't the way you want to do the mattress mambo be up to the player at least?

 

I understand the reason the devs weren't able to have more Cole-reads-Inquisitor stuff (even the one you mention is dicey in terms of RP, since that might not be the case at all), but it would have been nice if there were more instances of it in the game. Hearing Cole go through all of the followers and yet saying nothing about my Inquisitor is kinda... I dunno... I feel some sort of loss, or that something is lacking.

 

Preach it. As I said above, the one-sided nature of PC/NPC banters is one of my most biggest and most long-standing pet peeves with Bioware's writing ... and it was never more glaring than with this living, literal embodiment of compassion. Cole picks up Cass' craving for blueberry pastries and the fact that Dorian apparently loved a duck-on-wheels toy as a kid, but never says anything to or about the Inquisitor? It does make me feel left out. He's fantastic in Champions of the Just, but after that, dead silence.

 

This is particularly true in my case as I RP my Inquisitor having serious doubts and other issues as a result of the Fade trip at Adamant. But again, the game can't possibly know that, so it's just generally safer to err on the side of caution and not have anything at all, or very little as the case may be.

 

They should at least offer the option for NPCs to offer support after big story moments, IMO. Real support, an ear and a shoulder for the protagonist's thought, not a red herring that once more turns to being about what the NPC wants and feels. Here Lies the Abyss is a crisis moment for my Inquisitor too, yet there was no way to express it because nobody seemed to give a toss.

 

Very beautiful post Korva.

 

Thank you

 

And thank you for saying that.

[Shechinah]

They should at least offer the option for NPCs to offer support after big story moments, IMO. Real support, an ear and a shoulder for the protagonist's thought, not a red herring that once more turns to being about what the NPC wants and feels. Here Lies the Abyss is a crisis moment for my Inquisitor too, yet there was no way to express it because nobody seemed to give a toss.

I agree and it was something I severely disliked about what happened after Thrane's death: Nothing. Nothing happens. No one asks you about it.   

[nightscrawl]

They should at least offer the option for NPCs to offer support after big story moments, IMO. Real support, an ear and a shoulder for the protagonist's thought, not a red herring that once more turns to being about what the NPC wants and feels. Here Lies the Abyss is a crisis moment for my Inquisitor too, yet there was no way to express it because nobody seemed to give a toss.

I thought Dorian's response was pretty good, which he says regardless of romance status. I do really like the fact that he asks how you're dealing with it, which also -- happily for me -- plays into my RP angle since I romance him. Then again, I'm really biased toward Dorian in general so...

Going back to Cole and this issue, I'm wondering if they could have done something that used an aggregate of certain key dialog responses or other choices that would influence something he might say. For example, that I can recall there are three different scenes where various NPCs ask the Inquisitor "how [they're] holding up" in response to various events. There is the very first dialog with Varric in Haven, a dialog with Cullen on the Skyhold battlements, and the post-Adamant dialog with Dorian. In each of these you can express distress, confusion, anger, or stoicism. So what if all of those had some sort of point-weight value assigned to them that would influence something that Cole said later on?

 

I do recall that you can ask Cole how you feel to him, but I can only recall what he said to my main guy I play, which also happens to align with my RP, so I don't know if it changes based on anything or not.



On the subject of Cole in general... here is something I thought of while writing a death scene (yes, I'm terrible to my Inquisitor). Let's say that there is some battle with the Inquisitor, their LI, Cole (and whoever else floats your boat -- Varric for me), and either the Inquisitor or the LI dies. Now, in a moment like that there isn't really anything he can do to "help," and sometimes people just need to be left alone for a bit to vent their grief (screaming, crying, whatever).

What would that be like for Cole? I can't imagine it would be pleasant in the least.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Ugh, yes. I don't even have a nug in this race (as Varric would say) because I'm asexual/aromantic, but the thought of an NPC defining my character for me in that way still squicks the sh*t out of me and is one reason why I dislike the Iron Bull. Our characters get pitifully little attention for their thoughts and feelings as it is and are mainly stuck as enablers for the NPCs' characterization. Shouldn't the way you want to do the mattress mambo be up to the player at least?

Great post, but I wanted to quote this part since it's a response to me and say that I definitely agree. I don't have enough understanding of demisexuality (or myself) to say for sure, but I definitely exhibit certain elements of that (feeling I live in an over-sexualized world etc.), so the above is important to me.

 

I agree and it was something I severely disliked about what happened after Thane's death: Nothing. Nothing happens. No one asks you about it.   

Definitely! I've been wishing for a long time that companions would talk to the protagonist more, and ask them questions rather than the other way around all the time. From comments about missions you just did, to comments about a relationship you just started, to asking if you're alright after being heartbroken or the death of a friend. It would be a great way to shape your character.

[BansheeOwnage]

He describes you and says that you must be going through a lot and he hopes he helps, but you can't reply to it and that bothers me everytime. I'm not one to walk away when someone is implying they hope they are making things easier for me. Also, if you become a Rift Mage he will comment on it, saying he likes it a lot and you remind him of himself now, and you can say you are pleased it pleased him, or apologize if you become a Necromancer because it upsets him.

 

Oh and if you make him a spirit, at the end party if you say you wish you could forget everything, he will say "Alright" and then you panic and he laughs and says something like he was joking because it makes you laugh or smile and feel better.

Hahahahahaha! That's great! Awesome    About leaving the conversation after he says something: I agree. That actually happens fairly frequently and is rather annoying. Sometimes I want to thank someone, or apologize, or anything, but nope! Conversation over.

[Korva]

He describes you and says that you must be going through a lot and he hopes he helps, but you can't reply to it and that bothers me everytime. I'm not one to walk away when someone is implying they hope they are making things easier for me.

 

Oh yes. I really liked his view of my character, and the "you are theirs" line in particular, so I too wished I could acknowledge that and was upset that I couldn't. I also wanted to thank him for helping me with Envy, which considering how much was at stake for my character and the world at large was pretty damn big deal. But the game only allows for that in a roundabout and rather weak way in the conversation you can have with him in Haven by (paraphrased) reassuring him that he did fine at Therinfal and doesn't need to worry so much about saying things wrong.
 

Cole himself is really well-written, but unfortunately the Inquisitor often is not in their interactions (the worst example of course being the end of the spirit-path cutscene after the Arbor Wilds, which we talked about a while ago in that other thread). Both being able to thank him and seeing some content quiet moments between the characters to end cutscenes with, as they did with other NPCs, would have helped a lot.

 

Great post, but I wanted to quote this part since it's a response to me and say that I definitely agree. I don't have enough understanding of demisexuality (or myself) to say for sure, but I definitely exhibit certain elements of that (feeling I live in an over-sexualized world etc.), so the above is important to me.

 

Thank you! And yes, "over-sexualized" sometimes barely begins to describe it.

 

Definitely! I've been wishing for a long time that companions would talk to the protagonist more, and ask them questions rather than the other way around all the time. From comments about missions you just did, to comments about a relationship you just started, to asking if you're alright after being heartbroken or the death of a friend. It would be a great way to shape your character.

 

Indeed. And it shouldn't be restricted to romantic relationships, either. A close friendship with Cole, for example, or even the initial support for his presence, would certainly also attract attention ... positive, negative, or cautiously curious.

 

I thought Dorian's response was pretty good, which he says regardless of romance status. I do really like the fact that he asks how you're dealing with it, which also -- happily for me -- plays into my RP angle since I romance him. Then again, I'm really biased toward Dorian in general so...

 

I was pleasantly surprised by his opening line, which communicates genuine concern. Unfortunately, I recall that the rest of the brief talk strays into "red herring" territory because what my reply doesn't matter and just serves as a springboard for what he thinks i.e. that it'd be best to keep it quiet. Unfortunately this is what happens in pretty much every (very rare to begin with) case that an NPC is allowed to show any concern about or interest in the protagonist.

 

That said, I like Dorian too, most of the time. They did a better job at letting him show friendship vibes with the Inquisitor than with most other characters, even though the "my only friend" thing is laying it on too thick and ignores his positive interactions with other companions.

 

Going back to Cole and this issue, I'm wondering if they could have done something that used an aggregate of certain key dialog responses or other choices that would influence something he might say. For example, that I can recall there are three different scenes where various NPCs ask the Inquisitor "how [they're] holding up" in response to various events. There is the very first dialog with Varric in Haven, a dialog with Cullen on the Skyhold battlements, and the post-Adamant dialog with Dorian. In each of these you can express distress, confusion, anger, or stoicism. So what if all of those had some sort of point-weight value assigned to them that would influence something that Cole said later on?

 

 

That is a great idea! I'd love for the writers to take player actions and conversation choices into consideration more often in this manner overall, but it would have worked especially well with Cole.
 

 

Now, in a moment like that there isn't really anything he can do to "help," and sometimes people just need to be left alone for a bit to vent their grief (screaming, crying, whatever).

What would that be like for Cole? I can't imagine it would be pleasant in the least.

 

 

Agreed. I guess his reaction would partly depend on where he is in his personal journey (pre-quest/more spirit/more human), but he'd certainly feel the strain of it, and would likely listen very hard for the first "shift" in the person's feelings, the first "crack" that he could pour comfort into in whatever way will work best. We know he can back off/hold off in some cases, but at the same time he's also very determined to find a way to help even in really difficult cases.

[BansheeOwnage]

Thank you! And yes, "over-sexualized" sometimes barely begins to describe it.

 

Indeed. And it shouldn't be restricted to romantic relationships, either. A close friendship with Cole, for example, or even the initial support for his presence, would certainly also attract attention ... positive, negative, or cautiously curious.[/quote]

You're welcome! I considered rephrasing it to "hypersexual world". Either way.

 

Yeah, I didn't intend it to only be for romances (I haven't romanced anyone) but they were just some examples I thought of. But it would make sense especially for romances to wonder how you're feeling.

 

I was pleasantly surprised by his opening line, which communicates genuine concern. Unfortunately, I recall that the rest of the brief talk strays into "red herring" territory because what my reply doesn't matter and just serves as a springboard for what he thinks i.e. that it'd be best to keep it quiet. Unfortunately this is what happens in pretty much every (very rare to begin with) case that an NPC is allowed to show any concern about or interest in the protagonist.

 

That said, I like Dorian too, most of the time. They did a better job at letting him show friendship vibes with the Inquisitor than with most other characters, even though the "my only friend" thing is laying it on too thick and ignores his positive interactions with other companions.

I'm sorry, but, which conversation are you referring to?

[Dieb]

Cole is a Spirit from the Fade. Like everything in or from there, his initial compassion is a mimicry - It turns into real compassion only when exposed to the outside of this vacuum. I wouldn't even call it "tainted" at all. Just as Justice turned into Vengeance after leaving its natural habitat, Compassion turned into something less one-dimensional, literally becoming more real.

 

It is also noteworthy that every moral deed is a matter of perspective. Spirits seldomly encounter multiple people, so if they are avatars of charitable traits, it will be nothing but. Cole's case is very different however, since his world is ours, and it is inhabited by so many different people that there is a contradiction for every intention.

 

I think this is ultimately why Cole is both Spirit and Human: His actions are compassionate, but his choices onto whom they are carried out, can only be his own.

[Korva]

I'm sorry, but, which conversation are you referring to?

 

Dorian's post-Adamant cutscene conversation. It has a very promising beginning -- both his voice and his expression when he says "Are you ... all right?" show genuine concern for the Inquisitor's well-being. But it ends there. It does not matter what your response is because the rest of the conversation is all business as usual with him doing all the talking, at you, without reacting in any way to what you say when the writers allow you to get a word in edgewise. Why even bother letting an NPC ask if it's just another set-up for the NPC's thoughts and feelings? I find that even more frustrating than being ignored altogether while the NPCs bond with, care for and discuss issues with each other (which is plenty frustrating already), because it makes it so painfully clear that it's not about my character at all, or a chance to roleplay her. It's about the NPC, and only about the NPC. If I could send one wish to the writers, it would be to finally allow the protagonist to be an actual character, with friends who actually listen and care and reach out, instead of the tired old "protagonist as a non-entity that exists only to enable NPC characterization in entirely one-sided conversations and unpaid therapy sessions" nonsense.

 

So yeah, that's my mini-rant for the day. It's a huge ongoing issue that I harp on a lot and that goes all the way back to when they first wrote proper conversations in BG2. And it makes the NPCs' declarations of friendship and loyalty -- as touching and awesome as some of those scenes are -- ring more than a little hollow.

[BansheeOwnage]

Dorian's post-Adamant cutscene conversation. It has a very promising beginning -- both his voice and his expression when he says "Are you ... all right?" show genuine concern for the Inquisitor's well-being. But it ends there. It does not matter what your response is because the rest of the conversation is all business as usual with him doing all the talking, at you, without reacting in any way to what you say when the writers allow you to get a word in edgewise. Why even bother letting an NPC ask if it's just another set-up for the NPC's thoughts and feelings? I find that even more frustrating than being ignored altogether while the NPCs bond with, care for and discuss issues with each other (which is plenty frustrating already), because it makes it so painfully clear that it's not about my character at all, or a chance to roleplay her. It's about the NPC, and only about the NPC. If I could send one wish to the writers, it would be to finally allow the protagonist to be an actual character, with friends who actually listen and care and reach out, instead of the tired old "protagonist as a non-entity that exists only to enable NPC characterization in entirely one-sided conversations and unpaid therapy sessions" nonsense.

 

So yeah, that's my mini-rant for the day. It's a huge ongoing issue that I harp on a lot and that goes all the way back to when they first wrote proper conversations in BG2. And it makes the NPCs' declarations of friendship and loyalty -- as touching and awesome as some of those scenes are -- ring more than a little hollow.

Wow, yeah. You said it all. I wish that too. Why would they make characters like this if we couldn't actually... characterize them? It's pretty standard in any media to have the protagonist be a favourite character. I'm all for fleshing out the companions, but why can't we flesh out both?

[nightscrawl]

That said, I like Dorian too, most of the time. They did a better job at letting him show friendship vibes with the Inquisitor than with most other characters, even though the "my only friend" thing is laying it on too thick and ignores his positive interactions with other companions.

I don't want to stray too much into Dorian in a Cole thread, but I did want to respond to this.

Positive interactions don't equal "friendship." I got the feeling that Dorian's use of the word is important to him and has more significance than "a person I know somewhat well and have fun banter with" (like Varric). He is friendly with many people. That does not mean he considers them a friend. Considering Dorian's history, I'd venture to say that he probably has several acquaintances that he likes, both in Tevinter and in the South, but very few that he considers true friends. These are people that you can trust, rely on, and be yourself with. He's had precious little of that in his life.

 

At the end when he calls the Inquisitor his "best and only friend" I do agree that it seems a tad hyperbolic, but Dorian is a passionate guy and will express his genuine feeling, when he feels comfortable to do so, in such a manner. It is how he feels, he wouldn't have said it if he didn't mean it. He's also saying it to let the Inquisitor know just how important they are to him as a friend.

[Dai Grepher]

This problem isn't unique to Cole. Other companions seem to contradict themselves in various judgments and philosophies.

[BansheeOwnage]

This problem isn't unique to Cole. Other companions seem to contradict themselves in various judgments and philosophies.

It's just human everyone-in-thedas nature. Although, sometimes they only appear to be contradictory at face-value, and actually aren't if you analyze them.

[BansheeOwnage]

I remember cheering him up when I told him he helped me escape the nightmare, but I could't say anything else. He's also literally one of the untouchable characters besides Leliana. You never pat their shoulder, hug them or anything comforting when they need it. You keep a safe distance no matter what. And only Varric gets a hug option. Lol

I'm really saddened at the lack of strong, platonic friendship gestures like hugging. I really want to hug Cole! And also Dorian and Cassandra and Cullen... but definitely Cole. So Bioware, in addition to having people ask our characters how they feel, how about letting us show it too?

[Qun00]

I wonder if Cole cares about people in a heartfelt and genuine way.

The urge to help is almost like an animal's instinct to him.

Maybe he's simply compelled to do it, like a hunger that needs to be sated constantly.

[Dieb]

This problem isn't unique to Cole. Other companions seem to contradict themselves in various judgments and philosophies.

 

Bad writing.

 

I have never contradicted myself, ever.

 

 

But sometimes I say things that directly go against other things I had said previously.

[Nhadalie]

It's important to remember that while Cole was/is a spirit, he also made himself human. He didn't possess anyone. He created his own solid human form, something which shouldn't be possible. He has been Thedas for awhile, certainly long enough to learn some human traits. He was, and in many ways, still is a spirit of compassion. But in many ways, he's human. I think they did a great job mixing the two. You never really realize how human he was, until you make him fully a spirit again.

 

He wants you to exile the grey wardens, because they've been manipulated, and because they could be again. The fact that his personal quest triggers immediately afterward says a lot. But the grey wardens were not only manipulated, they were controlled with blood magic.Cole understands that he has done terrible things in the past. But he has also made friends, and he is terrified by the idea of being controlled and used against them. While he may understand that the wardens were used, he doesn't want to risk them hurting more innocent people.

 

So the short of it is that Cole sees what he could become in how the wardens were controlled, and is terrified by it. People make choices they wouldn't normally when they're scared. And he's human enough to be afraid.

[Korva]

Positive interactions don't equal "friendship." I got the feeling that Dorian's use of the word is important to him and has more significance than "a person I know somewhat well and have fun banter with" (like Varric). He is friendly with many people. That does not mean he considers them a friend. Considering Dorian's history, I'd venture to say that he probably has several acquaintances that he likes, both in Tevinter and in the South, but very few that he considers true friends. These are people that you can trust, rely on, and be yourself with. He's had precious little of that in his life.

 

That's a good point -- I don't use such "big words" lightly, either, and Dorian sounds like he's had precious few people in his life from whom he didn't have to "hide" but could be himself. Still, I'd hope that at least some of the others would actually qualify. Including Cole, who might be a catalyst for Dorian to reconsider his view of spirits as things you use and discard.

 

I'm just a little jaded by the juxtaposition of big words and wholly one-sided interactions. Saying "you're my best/only friend" rings very hollow when my character is excluded from all the mutual learning and caring and bickering and joking that her suppposed "friends" do among themselves ... and when NPCs never stick around once the big bad is dead (unless you're bedding them). The former does not make up for the latter. As I said, this is the number one issue on which I wish the writers would finally start to improve even a little.

 

I remember cheering him up when I told him he helped me escape the nightmare, but I could't say anything else.

 

I recall him sounding so surprised and also relieved when he says "I helped?". Looking back now that I know his full character arc, it's poignant and a little sad because this might have been the first time that someone who knew what he was (or at least knew he wasn't human) treated him in anything resembling a positive manner. He doesn't look for gratitude for his help, but I think receiving it anyway from the Inquisitor and company likely played a part in his own healing process. He can do it right. He is not a monster in everyone's eyes.

 

He's also literally one of the untouchable characters besides Leliana. You never pat their shoulder, hug them or anything comforting when they need it. You keep a safe distance no matter what. And only Varric gets a hug option. Lol

 

Oh yes. Cole, Cass and Dorian were the ones I most wanted to show some physical affection. I do like being able to hug Varric, but it is a bit odd that the only one we can embrace is the one who kind of keeps his distance because he doesn't really know how to wrap his head around the whole Herald of Andraste business.

 

At least with Cullen, there are a few cases where touch is implied in the way the characters move towards each other, even if the forearm-clasp/handshake/hand on the shoulder is not actually shown. It's one of the things that make his friendship arc stand out in a positive manner to me although I went into the game with more of a "ugh, fanservice" attitude towards him. Little gestures like this do make a difference.

 

I wonder if Cole cares about people in a heartfelt and genuine way.

The urge to help is almost like an animal's instinct to him.

Maybe he's simply compelled to do it, like a hunger that needs to be sated constantly.

 

This is an example of what I mean when I talk about my dislike of humanocentrism and how picking the spirit path is a deliberate opposition to it. Different equals inferior, just because.

 

Why would there be a conflict between instinct and sincerity? For that matter, why would our hormone-driven-meatsack impulses somehow be different? When it comes right down to it, what are the romances and the chosen-one-power-tripping and the killing sprees in these games if not pandering to some of our bases and lowest "animal instincts" for violence, status, mating and breeding?