145 réponses à ce sujet

[Serelir]

I remember cheering him up when I told him he helped me escape the nightmare, but I could't say anything else. He's also literally one of the untouchable characters besides Leliana. You never pat their shoulder, hug them or anything comforting when they need it. You keep a safe distance no matter what. And only Varric gets a hug option. Lol

I feel this, too. One of my very favorite scenes is when you take him out to Val Royaux. I wish there were more moments when I could converse with Cole and show him new things about the world instead of all the constant fighting, killing and strife. Maybe I'm playing the wrong game, lol.

[Serelir]

It was raining when I went, too! 

[BansheeOwnage]

This is an example of what I mean when I talk about my dislike of humanocentrism and how picking the spirit path is a deliberate opposition to it. Different equals inferior, just because.

 

Why would there be a conflict between instinct and sincerity? For that matter, why would our hormone-driven-meatsack impulses somehow be different? When it comes right down to it, what are the romances and the chosen-one-power-tripping and the killing sprees in these games if not pandering to some of our bases and lowest "animal instincts" for violence, status, mating and breeding?

I didn't choose to make Cole more "human" because I think spirits are inferior. Heck, in my mind, he's still a spirit either way anyway. He's just a spirit that's more like X, or more like Y. Sort of like how a human could act like a spirit.

 

Great second point as well. Silly hormones.

[BansheeOwnage]

I love how the scene played out so naturally with the rain, except for that one annoying drip/splash on the table when Cole was talking. It looked like it kept hitting him in the face. 

It's raining INSIDE.

 

[Qun00]

That's a good point -- I don't use such "big words" lightly, either, and Dorian sounds like he's had precious few people in his life from whom he didn't have to "hide" but could be himself. Still, I'd hope that at least some of the others would actually qualify. Including Cole, who might be a catalyst for Dorian to reconsider his view of spirits as things you use and discard.

I'm just a little jaded by the juxtaposition of big words and wholly one-sided interactions. Saying "you're my best/only friend" rings very hollow when my character is excluded from all the mutual learning and caring and bickering and joking that her suppposed "friends" do among themselves ... and when NPCs never stick around once the big bad is dead (unless you're bedding them). The former does not make up for the latter. As I said, this is the number one issue on which I wish the writers would finally start to improve even a little.


I recall him sounding so surprised and also relieved when he says "I helped?". Looking back now that I know his full character arc, it's poignant and a little sad because this might have been the first time that someone who knew what he was (or at least knew he wasn't human) treated him in anything resembling a positive manner. He doesn't look for gratitude for his help, but I think receiving it anyway from the Inquisitor and company likely played a part in his own healing process. He can do it right. He is not a monster in everyone's eyes.


Oh yes. Cole, Cass and Dorian were the ones I most wanted to show some physical affection. I do like being able to hug Varric, but it is a bit odd that the only one we can embrace is the one who kind of keeps his distance because he doesn't really know how to wrap his head around the whole Herald of Andraste business.

At least with Cullen, there are a few cases where touch is implied in the way the characters move towards each other, even if the forearm-clasp/handshake/hand on the shoulder is not actually shown. It's one of the things that make his friendship arc stand out in a positive manner to me although I went into the game with more of a "ugh, fanservice" attitude towards him. Little gestures like this do make a difference.


This is an example of what I mean when I talk about my dislike of humanocentrism and how picking the spirit path is a deliberate opposition to it. Different equals inferior, just because.

Why would there be a conflict between instinct and sincerity? For that matter, why would our hormone-driven-meatsack impulses somehow be different? When it comes right down to it, what are the romances and the chosen-one-power-tripping and the killing sprees in these games if not pandering to some of our bases and lowest "animal instincts" for violence, status, mating and breeding?

Even the best people may or may not care about someone's problems. But when they do, there is a reason for that.

To Cole, there is no difference. Every case will prompt the same reaction.

Like someone who eats compulsively or a robot that is just programmed to do something again and again.

[Korva]

The game's engine seems unable to distinguish between outside and inside when it comes to weather, which does make for some odd moments. At least Cole is a walking umbrella, with that big hat of his.

 

I didn't choose to make Cole more "human" because I think spirits are inferior. Heck, in my mind, he's still a spirit either way anyway. He's just a spirit that's more like X, or more like Y. Sort of like how a human could act like a spirit.

 

Yeah, I certainly don't think everyone who prefers the more-human-path is like this, but I'm just ... a bit twitchy at the moment because there is so much kneejerk humanocentrism in the fandom that I've pretty much given up on finding any enjoyable fics or discussions outside this forum (so cheers to you folks for the friendly talks here). Crap like calling the spirit path abuse, saying it cripples or destroys Cole. Making Cole human just to use him for sex or flat-out tortureporn, or to spite Solas for dumping the Inquisitor. Mischaracterizing Solas as a selfish, uncaring control freak who wants to prevent Cole from having any meaningful interactions and relationships with others, and putting all this bias of "spirits don't have real emotions", "spirits are just soulless automatons", "spirits can't have friends", "spirits don't actually care, you're just a project to sate their own needs" into the mouth of the one character who, actually, so passionately advocates for spirits and for treating them as valuable and individual, and who is so gentle and caring and respectful with Cole. And so on and so forth. Basically, everything good, interesting, sincere, relatable and valuable about Cole is human, and human only. I'm ... kind of used by now to the fact that the things that fascinate me in Bioware games are fringe interests at best, but this level of prejudice and hostility is rather depressing and has made me a bit thin-skinned.

[esper]

Wow, I had no idea people said that.

 

I make Cole human, because I think he is more vulnerable as a spirit. An amulet can be stolen and then he can be bound by blood magic and forced to act against his nature and I cannot bear the thought of that happening to Cole.

 

Better that he learns to adapt slowly, and at his own pace than risk being perverted forcefully against his nature.

 

Besides, from the Abyss quest, I really felt like Cole didn't want to return to the fade ever again and giving him a real presence is a way to ensure that.

[Qun00]

The game's engine seems unable to distinguish between outside and inside when it comes to weather, which does make for some odd moments. At least Cole is a walking umbrella, with that big hat of his.


Yeah, I certainly don't think everyone who prefers the more-human-path is like this, but I'm just ... a bit twitchy at the moment because there is so much kneejerk humanocentrism in the fandom that I've pretty much given up on finding any enjoyable fics or discussions outside this forum (so cheers to you folks for the friendly talks here). Crap like calling the spirit path abuse, saying it cripples or destroys Cole. Making Cole human just to use him for sex or flat-out tortureporn, or to spite Solas for dumping the Inquisitor. Mischaracterizing Solas as a selfish, uncaring control freak who wants to prevent Cole from having any meaningful interactions and relationships with others, and putting all this bias of "spirits don't have real emotions", "spirits are just soulless automatons", "spirits can't have friends", "spirits don't actually care, you're just a project to sate their own needs" into the mouth of the one character who, actually, so passionately advocates for spirits and for treating them as valuable and individual, and who is so gentle and caring and respectful with Cole. And so on and so forth. Basically, everything good, interesting, sincere, relatable and valuable about Cole is human, and human only. I'm ... kind of used by now to the fact that the things that fascinate me in Bioware games are fringe interests at best, but this level of prejudice and hostility is rather depressing and has made me a bit thin-skinned.

I'm more interested in why this gets you so bent out of shape.

After all, spirits aren't an oppressed minority in the real world.

Wow, I had no idea people said that.

I make Cole human, because I think he is more vulnerable as a spirit. An amulet can be stolen and then he can be bound by blood magic and forced to act against his nature and I cannot bear the thought of that happening to Cole.

Better that he learns to adapt slowly, and at his own pace than risk being perverted forcefully against his nature.

Besides, from the Abyss quest, I really felt like Cole didn't want to return to the fade ever again and giving him a real presence is a way to ensure that.

After finishing a PT where Cole is made more spirit like, I've finally understood where the dilemma is.

He gets one last cutscene where he uses "Forget" on himself and then says "You may still call me Cole, if you like".

As a full spirit, Cole gives up the bond he had with his friend Rhys and ultimately his identity.

[Phalaenopsis]

In regards to Solas, he warns you not to get involved with him. It's Lavellan's own fault for pushing him into something he knew would end badly, so trickster or not, he cared enough and I don't see that as selfish. And he understands Cole because of his relations with spirits, so he wants what he feels is best for him, but Varric too wants what he thinks is best for him. He saw a spirit become human and feels he should continue down that path, and Soals wants him to embrace what he was meant to be. I feel like the Inquisitor was standing between the 2 men staring at her, waiting for her to pick their side like in a sports game. I feel that the choice should have been Cole's, not mine.

 

Since before his personal quest, we can encourage him to be either more spirit or human, by the time the choice is made, Cole should decided based on how you taught him. If he wanted to be more human because you told him to not kill anyone, to speak normally, talk to the girl... then that's why he's human. If he wants to be more spirit-like, it's because you told him to be himself, kill the man out of mercy, make the girl forget... I always felt there had to be a reason you were given the chance to teach him to be more one way or encourage the other, but nothing ever comes of it. You can even encourage him to keep sneaking around to help people, or consider showing himself. Yet in the end it's the Inquisitor that chooses his fate. It feels wrong.

 

That's exactly what I think too. It should have been something more gradual or smoother, depending on our dialogues with him throughout the game (like Leliana's getting softened or hardened) rather than a choice we make for him all of a sudden...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Honestly, I don't really feel either version of Cole is supposed to be better or happier than the other. I didn't really have much investment in choosing between them. I eventually went with more spirit because 1) After what happened with Leliana, my Inquisitor was horrified to stop encouraging people to kill others and 2) I felt I needed more approval with Solas than Varric.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That's exactly what I think too. It should have been something more gradual or smoother, depending on our dialogues with him throughout the game (like Leliana's getting softened or hardened) rather than a choice we make for him all of a sudden...

 

Agreed. Having to make the big "choice" in these games are fine IMO when they involve larger scale political decisions like choosing the ruler of Orlais or exiling or conscripting the Wardens, but when it comes to decisions that redefine a companion character there should instead be a series of choices that subtly change them into one thing or another. 

 

Also, am I alone in wishing that we could of just let Cole kill that templar? I let Sera and Solas have their chance at brutal revenge so why not him? Yeah, I know there's a possibility this might turn him into rage demon or something, but ultimately this is his decision and what he truly wants to do so let him have it. Besides, I was kind of bothered by Varric and Solas's need to influence Cole in one way or another. I wanted him to figure out what he wanted to be independent of any one's opinions or philosophies. Best answers to life are found within rather then from without after all, right. 

[Magdalena11]

What to do with Cole is so tough, because he doesn't know what to do himself.    Most of the time, I figure that since he would go back if he could, Cole's stuck as a physical being, unless someone finds a way to undo it.  Since no one, including Cole himself, knows how to send him back, I figure Varric can show him how to make the best of what he's got.  Solas can go back, anytime he wants, so it's easy for him to offer advice.  He can't show Cole how to live in the world he's going to continuously alienate himself from, though.

[Korva]

I'm more interested in why this gets you so bent out of shape.

After all, spirits aren't an oppressed minority in the real world.

 

Someone in a game fandom being upset by hostile attitudes and mischaracterizations of a game character? Goodness forbid. A whole bunch of people here and elsewhere in the fandom get "bent out of shape" about a whole bunch of things. And the attitudes and rhetorics I've encountered sometimes are painfully similar to views about some real-world marginalized groups. The whole "there's only one way to have worth and value as a person, and you're not it because you're not like me and don't do what I want you to" that much of it boils down to is exactly the same.

 

In regards to Solas, he warns you not to get involved with him. It's Lavellan's own fault for pushing him into something he knew would end badly, so trickster or not, he cared enough and I don't see that as selfish.

 

The "selfish, abusive and controlling" accusations about Solas I mentioned were in regards to Cole (which is totally nonsensical) and not the romance ... but it wouldn't surprise me if some people project their resentment of him dumping them onto his behavior towards everyone else. I do have my issues with him, but his relationship with Cole easily shows the best of him IMO.

 

I can't comment on the romance since I've no interest in it, but as a brief aside I'd say that saying "I warned you" isn't really enough to shift the blame on the other person.

 

And he understands Cole because of his relations with spirits, so he wants what he feels is best for him, but Varric too wants what he thinks is best for him. He saw a spirit become human and feels he should continue down that path, and Soals wants him to embrace what he was meant to be. I feel like the Inquisitor was standing between the 2 men staring at her, waiting for her to pick their side like in a sports game. I feel that the choice should have been Cole's, not mine.

 

Yeah ... they're both "selfish" in the sense that they have a strong preference for one side of Cole and want to preserve that. Though if anything it was Varric who is "worse" about it in my eyes, so it's odd to me that these people think he is Cole's perfect friend and Solas is the badguy.

 

Since before his personal quest, we can encourage him to be either more spirit or human, by the time the choice is made, Cole should decided based on how you taught him. If he wanted to be more human because you told him to not kill anyone, to speak normally, talk to the girl... then that's why he's human. If he wants to be more spirit-like, it's because you told him to be himself, kill the man out of mercy, make the girl forget... I always felt there had to be a reason you were given the chance to teach him to be more one way or encourage the other, but nothing ever comes of it. You can even encourage him to keep sneaking around to help people, or consider showing himself. Yet in the end it's the Inquisitor that chooses his fate. It feels wrong.

 

See, I never really saw any of the scenes with him in that way. The "make him more human" thing in his quest struck me as coming completely out of the blue, and I'm admittedly not a big fan of the way the game presents some of its binary choices or of the way the "influence a companion's personality" cases have been handled in the series. (Hello, Leliana-trainwreck.) In this case, there are some valuable messages that Cole can benefit from no matter what path he takes in the end. Approaching people without startling them is one, as is friends having faith in him even when he stumbles instead of just telling him "don't do this, or that, or that".

 

Though as I think we discussed before, I agree that the way the choice is presented as it is, is really jarring because it's so disrespectful. He's right there, boys, he can hear you, he needs our support and not us fighting over him.

 

(Regarding the Inquisitor's reaction to the "odd things" he does -- isn't "you're doing good but you don't need to hide" the only feedback you can give him?)

 

 Most of the time, I figure that since he would go back if he could, Cole's stuck as a physical being, unless someone finds a way to undo it.  Since no one, including Cole himself, knows how to send him back, I figure Varric can show him how to make the best of what he's got.  Solas can go back, anytime he wants, so it's easy for him to offer advice.  He can't show Cole how to live in the world he's going to continuously alienate himself from, though.

 

Cole can return to the Fade on the spirit-path, and mentions it with relief and joy, but still decides to stay. The fact that he has that option is one reason why I prefer this choice. You raise an interesting point, though, and now that I think about it, it is something that should probably have been discussed at some point because "spirit unhappily stuck in the physical world" is a recipe for bad news. Maybe Solas with all his knowledge of spirits realized that Cole is still quite badly hurt from his past and its mistakes (which is pretty damn obvious after all, though the underlying cause i.e. the original Cole's death is not) and needs time and support to heal from it, at which point the ability to return to the Fade if he so desires would hopefully come back to him?

[BansheeOwnage]

I'm more interested in why this gets you so bent out of shape.

After all, spirits aren't an oppressed minority in the real world.

Because it shows people's mindsets. Scary ones. If allegories and analogies in fiction didn't indirectly represent reality, they wouldn't be used so much. Sometimes, they can make people think about parallels to real-world issues without even realizing it. So, we're bent out of shape on principle, and because of the next paragraph:

 

Someone in a game fandom being upset by hostile attitudes and mischaracterizations of a game character? Goodness forbid. A whole bunch of people here and elsewhere in the fandom get "bent out of shape" about a whole bunch of things. And the attitudes and rhetorics I've encountered sometimes are painfully similar to views about some real-world marginalized groups. The whole "there's only one way to have worth and value as a person, and you're not it because you're not like me and don't do what I want you to" that much of it boils down to is exactly the same.

 

 

Since before his personal quest, we can encourage him to be either more spirit or human, by the time the choice is made, Cole should decided based on how you taught him. If he wanted to be more human because you told him to not kill anyone, to speak normally, talk to the girl... then that's why he's human. If he wants to be more spirit-like, it's because you told him to be himself, kill the man out of mercy, make the girl forget... I always felt there had to be a reason you were given the chance to teach him to be more one way or encourage the other, but nothing ever comes of it. You can even encourage him to keep sneaking around to help people, or consider showing himself. Yet in the end it's the Inquisitor that chooses his fate. It feels wrong.

Funny thing is, I would never tell him to "act more human" or anything like that; I always tell him to be himself, and even let him stab the dying soldier, yet I choose the more "human" path (as said before though, I don't see it as human, more like another kind of spirit). There is no perfect way for the quest to go, because if it was indirect, people would have to choose between the Cole they want, or the Inquisitor's lines that fit their roleplaying. I agree that it's kind of shoehorned to have you make the decision (a lot of decisions in Bioware games are when it comes to personal matters), but, I don't know...