54 réponses à ce sujet

[Spin-Orbit]

I saw the ongoing points of view on the St.Bluke's Balance changes to date thread and thought it would be better served over easy since like the preference of eggs or not the AW is the center perhaps the most amount of divergence of opinions in this forum, even over all the promotions controversy. Spirit Blade is definitely the most twitchy setting that still hasn't found a home.

 

So I would like to start off with the following major curtains to choose from and start off saying, I don't play AW much but I think this need to be settled by BW

 

1. AW is Overpowered -

• I think this is not a bad thing since this is not a PvP game. I used it a lot when I started to get into threatening then into perilous that I would not have been able to with other characters.
• I was able to assist other players into perilous whereas I couldn't do it with other characters once I got some promotions
•  AW seems to be a great way for new players without great gear to start learning to play

2. AW Uniqueness

 

• AW is a melee mage by definition, how would you melee without a weapon? Be it a B or something else to be used in close range. In DA:O this was actually a sword that channeled magic like a staff and in DA:I this evolved to SB
• Without SB AW is often played as a ranged character, doesn't this defeat the purpose of the Arcane Warrior?
• Fade shield was always the AW's protection so he enter melee but he changed from DA:O wearing heavy armor to DA:I wearing only light armor

 

Issues to be resolved

• SB is constantly being jiggled with
• FS is now be contemplated on being modified
• If AW is not a Arcane Warrior in true melee form what is he?

 

Observations...

• Why do some people dislike the AW so much?
• Why do you care if AW can or cannot solo?
• Why does AW generate so much controversy?

My Question - How would you design Arcane Warrior but stay with his defined uniqueness of a mage that fights like a warrior (not a archer)....

 

 

[SkillSpray]

In my opinion (note: you don't have to agree with it), what makes AW broken is that he is the only character that has a "leech" mechanic. He is the only one that can regenerate hit points (barrier in this case) on hit in a game that was designed without this being the primary survival mechanic. (Yes, i'm aware that Zither has a health on hit buff, but that's not the point, also ignoring the 3 guard on hit on weapons/shield, because that's utterly useless in current form).

 

In all honesty, some of his passives contradict each other. He has the fade shield (barrier leech on hit), while also having armor passives (20% armor, 10% more armor after using SB). For me at least, that does not make sense, as damage taken through barrier is not affected by armor, and you pretty much HAVE to take Fade Shield to get to other passives. This makes the armor passives redundant, as you can't really choose whether you pick barrier leech or hp facetanking with improved armor passives.

 

After several SB changes making it a waste of slot on the skill bar, AW atm is just another mage with very good utility who throws stuff at enemies from range. That is entirely opposite to what i guess was designed to do: be a melee mage swinging an oversized blade.

 

To answer your question,  (" How would you design Arcane Warrior but stay with his defined uniqueness of a mage that fights like a warrior (not a archer)....")

I'd remove his fade shield, bump up his armor and his damage on the SB, making it the primary skill. There was an opinion stating that SB was the only skill he needed on his action bar when it was 10 mana/400% weapon dmg. This was true, but at the same time, Reaver does the same. Dragon rage is the primary skill used by her, while others synergize perfectly with it. (devour, ring of pain/war horn, rampage, etc). In comparison, Dragon Rage also does 200% weapon dmg (improved). The issue is, the reaver has access to the dragon maul, which is 330 base dmg, while the AW's Dragon staff has 81 (I believe it's max). It needs to hit like a truck due to the slow animation, while other skills would support the AW using SB (e.g. Fade Step to close gaps, Fade Cloak to recover from CC, PotA to bunch them up, etc).

 

Another option would be to make SB interact with barrier if the leech is to be kept. Either make it cost a certain % of his barrier on use, or use his barrier to improve the damage on SB, similar to Chaotic Focus passive on elementalist (consumes half his barrier to improve the damage of his next spell). This would nerf his immortality, while also giving him more damage on SB to use.

 

In my opinion, the perfect AW build should be SB/FC/FS/PotA, as it would fit the theme and skills would synergize with each other. You can do it now as well, but again, why pick this when you have FC/FS/SF/CL which is much more effective? SB does too little damage for it to be worthwhile, and SB isn't the reason why AW is so "overpowered". 

[Drasca]

Fade Shield is OP. EoS.

[Spin-Orbit]

Fade Shield is OP. EoS.

Drasca, that doesn't say anything. Too many posts on this forum is this is Op that is useless. It seems that general agreement is AW need to be revisited instead of tweaked left and right. So the question was "how would you design it?"

[Drasca]

Drasca, that doesn't say anything. Too many posts on this forum is this is Op that is useless. It seems that general agreement is AW need to be revisited instead of tweaked left and right. So the question was "how would you design it?"

 

Fade shield is OP and the mechanic should be nerfed. How's that for a statement?

 

How I would design it is not relevant, since I don't have control over it, nor direct involvement in what's acceptable within BW.  I don't know what the job parameters (specificially requires, and allows) and I'm not paid to do it. There are real life metrics involved, like deadlines, software capabilities, time limits, etc. I'm not a part of it, so I wouldn't bother designing something that isn't realistically going to happen.

 

You're free to fantasize designing as you desire. I'm not going to without real objectives and process.

[TheThirdRace]

Everytime I'm gonna see an Arcane Warrior thread I'll just link to this post...

http://forum.bioware.../#entry19103707

[Innarra]

Gotta love those Drasca posts. 

 

Even though he's probably right, there's no way for us as a BSN community to "design" the class, perhaps our input can help give insight from the player community the Devs can use to help their adjustments. He sure comes off sounding so douche-y about it in his delivery (as are a vast majority of his posts in this forum) I guess we should be used to it by now, amiright?

 

As a general statement, saying "This is OP and needs to be nerfed" is pretty weak. 

 

I'm done with my AW banner, so I don't really have a stake in the game, (I likely won't play him again) but as far as seeing all the weekly balance changes centered around the AW, I'd say he could use some love after all the nerfs and tweaks to his abilities. Does he really need to be nerfed again?

 

The whole point of Fade Shield is that it gives the AW some great survivability so he can be in melee range. He's using a staff, which is around 3x weaker than a 2h weapon to do damage. He certainly can't kill as fast as a Reaver, but he can be a battle mage tank! Taking FS away basically kills the class.

 

I agree with Spin-Orbit, that it's good to have a class that is sought after by new players, that is a bit more survivable than the rest, so they can learn the game without getting overly frustrated, and rage quit when they die on Threatening.

 

Why not, instead of nerfing to balance, buff other classes that are under-utilized in terms of survivability? The Devs did that with the Katari, and I think in general the community really loved that adjustment. He's a beast now (one might say he's OP with the extra hp and guard-on-hit) but now more than ever I see people playing that class where they didn't before.

[BansheeOwnage]

I don't find the AW overpowered per se (at least not to a degree that matters in PvE). I would say that the AW is simply less gear/promotion-dependent than other classes, and has a (much) shorter learning curve. Other classes can destroy everything too, it just takes more gear/practice.

[Minuos]

High survivability and low damage makes sense, but the clunky animation of Spirit Blade was already enough to make me hate using it. I'd replace Fade Shield's barrier generation with a stacking, limited-duration armour bonus from dealing damage (possibly double that bonus vs. weakened enemies). That should bring his survivability more in line with other agents and encourage more tactical [team]play, but may require a buff to his offensive capabilities.
 
As it stands, Spirit Blade has no incentive. The armour bonus from Sell Sword is useless. If the animations were smoother and it had a small lunge mechanic, I'd consider it. For now, there are just better ways to play him.
 
Personally, I'd replace his staff with sword and shield, but have him wear the shield on his back instead of actually wielding it.

Spoiler

[Gya]

Heavily reduce fade shield's barrier return unless in the proximity of allies. Eg. Base return 2% of damage dealt, +7% per ally within 8m. There, now he can't run off as much.

Or, completely remove support XP for him.

[Proto]

1. AW is Overpowered -

 

I agree with the first two bullets, 100%. 

 

 

•  AW seems to be a great way for new players without great gear to start learning to play

 

I disagree with this statement. If anything it hinders L2P. You have to get your hands dirty and play the other classes to improve. The AW is used as a crutch. Which is fine under the first two bullets circumstances, but you can't learn how to play without a constant barrier if you're never playing without said constant barrier. I do understand the point you are getting at though. It is a great class for an  inexperienced player as it's the most forgiving. I played it a bunch early on.

 

 

2. Arcane Warrior's Uniqueness -

 

I agree with all three bullet points 100%. 

 

Spirit Blade was and should be the focal point of the Arcane Warrior as a class. It’s an exclusive ability. But, currently, playing primarily ranged is the most productive way to play the character. 

 

Love the idea of heavy armor. That would be super cool. 

 

Issues to be resolved -

 

In my opinion, Spirit Blade was never what made the Arcane Warrior overpowered/unbalanced. Barrier generation through Fade Cloak spamming was and still is why the Arcane Warrior is almost unkillable, even with poor gear and few (or 0) promotions. I also think this is why Spirit Blade keeps getting jiggled with. It’s hard to fix a class that's broken by changing an ability that wasn't the cause. Fade Shield and how it generates barrier with Fade Cloak should be modified. I think it’s good that Luke is contemplating this.

 

Observations - 

 

People dislike the Arcane Warrior because it doesn't bring anything beneficial to the TEAM unless it has POA and or properly executes sleep combos. 

 

Playing the Arcane Warrior this way makes it harder to stay alive, though. POA does no direct damage and as a result doesn’t generate barrier. It also takes time to cast and costs a significant amount of mana.  Because of this the class is more susceptible to being hit without a barrier active and becomes less survivable. Lesser geared and lower promoted players can’t stay alive AS WELL while doing this. Just like a lesser geared and lower promoted player would have a hard time bringing a Reaver or an Assassin into a difficulty they aren’t ready to play in. Like you mentioned in the overpowered section of your post, the majority of players use the Arcane Warrior to play the harder difficulties when they're still "new" to the game because it is more survivable than the other characters. The best way to execute this is to have as many low cooldown, DAMAGE dealing AOE abilities as possible. So, new players doing what you described skip POA and end up spending the entire match doing relatively low DPS just to keep themselves upright. They do this because they don't have the gear or promotions to be effective on Perilous or Threatening with any other characters either.

 

The controversy comes from the bolded sentence above. Players who have put in the time and have the gear and promotions to play Perilous or Threatening with non-arcane warrior classes find themselves in lobbies with Arcane Warriors who bring nothing of benefit to the team. They aren't helping kill things fast or providing any team buffs or support. Not dying has its benefits for the player who's not dying, but not for a team that would be more efficient if they had one of the following instead:

 

Virtuoso providing team support or DPS through its offensive abilities. 

Keeper using static cage and casting TEAM barrier 

Elementalist using crowd control or both crowd control and barrier

Rogue killing enemies quickly and as a result keeping teammates from taking as much damage

Warrior soaking damage and keeping squishy players from getting too much aggro

Warrior killing enemies quickly and as a result keeping teammates from taking as much damage

 

Because of the Arcane Warrior’s ability to stay alive even if not providing anything to the team, players who don't have enough experience in the game end up playing difficulties they are not ready to be playing. I believe that is why the Arcane Warrior REALLY causes so much controversy.

 

 

 

My Question - How would you design Arcane Warrior but stay with his defined uniqueness of a mage that fights like a warrior (not a archer)....

 

 

I would consider the following:

 

Decrease the Arcane Warrior’s survivability by reducing the amount of barrier generated by Fade Cloak. If its not possible to edit how much barrier Fade Cloak generates based on damage it might be necessary to reduce the damage or change the upgrade altogether exclusively for the Arcane Warrior. This should be possible since they did it for Flank Attack on the Duelist. By doing this you bring the character back in line with the other classes pre-BIS gear and pre-promotions. It would be much harder to jump straight into the higher difficulties and survive. The class would scale more fairly when compared with the other original classes. The Arcane Warrior would still be one of the tankiest characters in the game, as it should be.

 

 

Replace Peaceful Aura with a Threat GENERATING passive. This would give the Arcane Warrior a way to support the team outside of sleep combos and POA.

 

And finally, fine-tune Spirit Blade. Now, I’ve wondered about this for a while and am still unsure what damage % / mana cost would be the most satisfying. And to be honest, I havn’t played the character at all since the Spirit Blade nerf so I don’t think I’d be the best person to choose this value. Although, I didn’t think spirit blades damage was too out of whack when it was the following:

 

300% weapon damage

Bonus: 200% against barrier and 400% against guard

Cost: 10 Mana

 

We’ve learned from Luke that the upgrade to spirit blade was erroneously adding an extra 100% weapon damage. He’s since removed the extra 100% weapon damage from the upgrade.

 

 

Even when Spirit Blade was essentially 400% weapon damage with the upgrade it wasn’t producing high DPS. Because Staff’s have low base damage Spirit Blade doesn’t scale nearly as well as many other classes main damage abilities. The percentage increase in base damage with the introduction of item level 24 weapons was much, much greater on all weapons when compared to staffs. Think about how much more powerful Twin Fangs and Dragon Rage are now that we have Dragon Weapons. Spirit Blade? Meh, not so much. I think putting it back to 300%, without the extra 100% would be just fine. In fact, that may not be high enough…auto attacking to make use of gathering storm may still be more efficient. Which IMO shouldn’t be the case. Auto attacking should be the fallback when out of mana. It is an Arcane Warrior after all. Also, I think the extra damage to barrier and guard gives it further utility…uniqueness. I think we can all agree 200% and 400% were a little high. But, those bonuses need to be high enough that they add value to using spirit blade as one of the Arcane Warrior’s main offensive abilities.

[Eelectrica]

AW is OP chop off his arms and legs. Even his *Censored* is OP. Belinda caught a glimpse and was heard to gasp ''Oh my, look', so that's gonna have to go as well.

[Spin-Orbit]

You're free to fantasize designing as you desire. I'm not going to without real objectives and process.

Why bother commenting then?
 

1. AW is Overpowered -
 
Spirit Blade was and should be the focal point of the Arcane Warrior as a class. It’s an exclusive ability. But, currently, playing primarily ranged is the most productive way to play the character. 
 
Love the idea of heavy armor. That would be super cool.

My sentiments exactly
 

1. AW is Overpowered -
 
So, new players doing what you described skip POA and end up spending the entire match doing relatively low DPS just to keep themselves upright. They do this because they don't have the gear or promotions to be effective on Perilous or Threatening with any other characters either.
 
The controversy comes from the bolded sentence above.

I understand but we need to come to terms with the fact we want to keep the new user base and we all know that the other classes will be more difficult. So if we figure a way to make AW work then I think BW might be open to some ideas
 

1. AW is Overpowered -

I would consider the following:
 
Decrease the Arcane Warrior’s survivability by reducing the amount of barrier generated by Fade Cloak. If its not possible to edit how much barrier Fade Cloak generates based on damage it might be necessary to reduce the damage or change the upgrade altogether exclusively for the Arcane Warrior. This should be possible since they did it for Flank Attack on the Duelist. By doing this you bring the character back in line with the other classes pre-BIS gear and pre-promotions. It would be much harder to jump straight into the higher difficulties and survive. The class would scale more fairly when compared with the other original classes. The Arcane Warrior would still be one of the tankiest characters in the game, as it should be.
 
 
Replace Peaceful Aura with a Threat GENERATING passive. This would give the Arcane Warrior a way to support the team outside of sleep combos and POA.
 
And finally, fine-tune Spirit Blade. Now, I’ve wondered about this for a while and am still unsure what damage % / mana cost would be the most satisfying. And to be honest, I havn’t played the character at all since the Spirit Blade nerf so I don’t think I’d be the best person to choose this value. Although, I didn’t think spirit blades damage was too out of whack when it was the following:
 
300% weapon damage
Bonus: 200% against barrier and 400% against guard
Cost: 10 Mana
 
We’ve learned from Luke that the upgrade to spirit blade was erroneously adding an extra 100% weapon damage. He’s since removed the extra 100% weapon damage from the upgrade.
 
 
Even when Spirit Blade was essentially 400% weapon damage with the upgrade it wasn’t producing high DPS. Because Staff’s have low base damage Spirit Blade doesn’t scale nearly as well as many other classes main damage abilities. The percentage increase in base damage with the introduction of item level 24 weapons was much, much greater on all weapons when compared to staffs. Think about how much more powerful Twin Fangs and Dragon Rage are now that we have Dragon Weapons. Spirit Blade? Meh, not so much. I think putting it back to 300%, without the extra 100% would be just fine. In fact, that may not be high enough…auto attacking to make use of gathering storm may still be more efficient. Which IMO shouldn’t be the case. Auto attacking should be the fallback when out of mana. It is an Arcane Warrior after all. Also, I think the extra damage to barrier and guard gives it further utility…uniqueness. I think we can all agree 200% and 400% were a little high. But, those bonuses need to be high enough that they add value to using spirit blade as one of the Arcane Warrior’s main offensive abilities.

Some of these ideas are great and I believe that the BSN community as the players of AW can bring this thoughts together into a real cool AW.

[ProperWarhawk]

The four ways to level the AW in my mind would be to:
1) decrease the amount of damage that is converted to barrier.
2) tie fade shield solely to damage done with SB
Since many people complain that the AW doesn't contribute much to team mechanics,
4) Fade Shield could return a small percent of total team damage as barriers.(an interesting but easily absusable)
5) just give him barrier instead of fade shield

Or don't do anything, I never play him, so IDGF

[Drasca]

 

Because of the Arcane Warrior’s ability to stay alive even if not providing anything to the team, players who don't have enough experience in the game end up playing difficulties they are not ready to be playing. I believe that is why the Arcane Warrior REALLY causes so much controversy.

 

Spot on. SB AW Provides nothing AND drags down the experience for others. SB AW certainly is a crutch too, and a poor one. Non SB AW's though are a different story.

 

Observations - 

 

People dislike the Arcane Warrior because it doesn't bring anything beneficial to the TEAM unless it has POA and or properly executes sleep combos. 

 

Playing the Arcane Warrior this way makes it harder to stay alive, though. POA does no direct damage and as a result doesn’t generate barrier. It also takes time to cast and costs a significant amount of mana.  Because of this the class is more susceptible to being hit without a barrier active and becomes less survivable. Lesser geared and lower promoted players can’t stay alive AS WELL while doing this.

 

Most of your analysis is fantastic and spot on. However you're missing some things. You forget how useful weakness, stagger and knockdown are, (FC/Mind Blast/SF), and the option to Dispel.

 

The part about PotA however is also not true, as evidenced by no SB + Pota based builds. Mine in particular maximized the weakness, paralyze and sleep combos and synergies. Currently Wavebend fancies one that replaces CL with Dispel. I'm not the only one who can pull off my build.

 

I argue my non SB build is also superior to SB builds for a lot of reasons, including survive-ability, because in part control based builds work better, and it is a LOT more team friendly (on top of more damage, even before SB was nerfed).

 

Those not familiar with mine can go here to combo king under AW:

http://forum.bioware...rite-mp-builds/

 

There is a skill element involved of course, but that's always been the case if you want higher performance.

 

 

Even when Spirit Blade was essentially 400% weapon damage with the upgrade

 

The other minor point of contention is this number is completely wrong, because of poor math understanding of the combat formula. Not as big of a deal though considering MP has since been rebalanced with different values.

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

Fade shield was and still is what makes AW op. No cool down whatsoever and as long as there are enemies afoot, and the player is attacking than AW will continue to draw controversy and spur topics like this because no other class can compare to his durability. I still believe it was a major design mistake to give this kit not only a self generating barrier but also guardian spirit.

It rendered the legionnare an afterthought to most players when AW accomplished the same goal as a tank with a higher dps and xp generating output. Thus, players became far too reliant on AW for perilous runs, and it's one of the reasons why when they switch to another class they find themselves entering the fade in record times and being a detriment to their team due to dependence on this sole kit.

In a game that is supposed to promote team play and co op dynamics, the AW was the complete antithesis of this as you could say he needed no help from his team at all thanks to the mechanics of how fade shield works.

[yarpenthemad21]

My opinion is plain the opposite pretty much of majority of ppl here.

For me AW needs buffs and fixes.

I don't play AW, I treat him like low tier mage with lowest fun factor of all mages.
Everything AW can try to do, keeper, ele, virtuoso can do way better. AW in current state, with broken stone fist, with low damage SB is just a selfish low damage mage. Maybe hard to kill but in most cases just plain useless.

Plus I hate non SB AW. It should be main AW skill.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

So I had a few thoughts on this subject the other day, and it coincidentally lines up with this subject.

 

First, let me preface this by saying that this is entirely opinion and this is just my thoughts of things that will almost certainly never happen:

 

With the release of the Virtuoso, we received a mage that not only had a unique casting mechanic, but mostly interestingly on the subject of the Arcane Warrior, the Virtuoso has a unique basic attack (where he fires projectiles from his hand while his staff stays on his back).

 

That got me thinking: What if Spirit Blade replaced basic attack for the Arcane Warrior? Hes meant to be a melee mage, isn't he? Speed up the attack speed of Spirit Blade just a little bit, make it cost no mana, and deal 100% Spirit Weapon Damage.

 

What does that do?

• Makes the Arcane Warrior unique in several facets, including being the only character that deals pure Spirit Damage with a basic attack (being that there are no enemies resistant and several that are weak to it)
• Gives the Arcane Warrior and "always on" melee option, freeing up four slots for any other skills.
• Makes the Arcane Warrior a more valuable ranged/melee hybrid

 

Now, the second issue and complaint heard frequently with the Arcane Warrior is Fade Shield, the passive that is almost forced on players at level 2. The problem with this, as Luke has mentioned many times, is that Barrier in general is OP. This got me thinking again: One of the major benefits of the Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age: Origins was the ability to wear heavier armours. Why not up the Arcane Warrior's armour level to that of a 2h warrior and make Fade Shield a Guard generation instead of Barrier? 30% of damage dealt generated as Guard may be pretty hefty...

 

What does that do?

• Makes the Arcane Warrior more of the warrior and less of the spandex-wearing ballerina.
• Fade Shield would have a significantly better Guard generation rate that the Katari, making up for the lower overall Health of the Arcane Warrior.

 

Next, my biggest peeve of the Arcane Warrior is his complete lack of self/team-buffs. The Arcane Warrior to me was not designed as a Controller, which he really favours in DAIMP having all of the Rift Mage abilities/passives. He should replace Veilstrike with some kind of mage equivalent to Walking Fortress, Horn of Valour, Rally, or Rampage. Dispel should be replaced with a sort of Spell Purge. Essentially, all abilities that are targetable AoE should be reworked geared more toward a melee play style, or replaced with abilities that better benefit melee.

 

What does that do?

• Replaces the crowd-controlling skills already possessed in part by other mages with unique skills that fit the warrior-mage concept.
• Gives the Arcane Warrior suvivability and utility at higher levels.

 

Now, many would get angry at this last part getting rid of Pull of the Abyss, arguably one of the best crowd-control abilities available. I would replace this with a similar skill that better fits the Arcane Warrior's CQC style. Essentially it would be like Pull of the Abyss, but non-targetable, longer pull distance, and targets enemies in a wide arc in front of you. Essentially kind of like an AoE version of Grapple Chain, quickly bringing enemies into melee range, where the Arcane Warrior is meant to be.

 

 

 

Again, I want to reiterate that that was just subjective random thoughts I have. Since that overall is insanely extensive, there is literally no chance this would ever happen. I just thought the changes would be fun. As is, I literally never use the Arcane Warrior. Just not my style of play.

[SkillSpray]

 

 

That got me thinking: What if Spirit Blade replaced basic attack for the Arcane Warrior? Hes meant to be a melee mage, isn't he? Speed up the attack speed of Spirit Blade just a little bit, make it cost no mana, and deal 100% Spirit Weapon Damage.

 

 

 

It still wouldn't be worth the risk, going in melee range just to tickle enemies. 2h warriors have access to a 330-ish damage weapon, while the damage on a staff is 81 max. You'd need a 400% multiplier for it to be equivalent to the auto attack of reaver/katari/avaar (given that SB does aoe damage, while the maul does not).

 

I still don't understand what was wrong with the 400, then 300 multiplier. All SB did then was being equivalent to a 2handed warrior auto attack, while costing resources every use, while attacks were doing the opposite for warriors - generating stamina. (300 made more sense, as it puts it in line with the dragon greatsword, which does aoe)

[DrakeHasNoFlow]

It still wouldn't be worth the risk, going in melee range just to tickle enemies. 2h warriors have access to a 330-ish damage weapon, while the damage on a staff is 81 max. You'd need a 400% multiplier for it to be equivalent to the auto attack of reaver/katari/avaar (given that SB does aoe damage, while the maul does not).

I still don't understand what was wrong with the 400, then 300 multiplier. All SB did then was being equivalent to a 2handed warrior auto attack, while costing resources every use, while attacks were doing the opposite for warriors - generating stamina. (300 made more sense, as it puts it in line with the dragon greatsword, which does aoe)

Warrior classes beside the legionnare, in general, don't have the extreme durability of AW. Unless you have quite a number of attributes promoted and the best gear, an AW can absorb and deal more dps and aoe while generating greater xp rewards. We are talking about a kit that has no major drawbacks, while other classes like warriors albeit may have high burst dps also lack something apparent which is survivability, and effective guard.

I don't necessarily agree in gimping sb for the AW, as this isn't the issue but increasing his dmg output isn't the answer either. Revamping fade shield and how it functions ultimately is better in the long run because it's the one ability in which sets him a part not only in design but in terms of overall effectiveness out of all the classes and team composition.

You can make a case again and that this is a pve and there shouldn't be such a hot debate over balance, but they of should just had AW be the only class rather than 12 from the start. And for a class that is supposed to considered support, he is far too individualistic.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

It still wouldn't be worth the risk, going in melee range just to tickle enemies. 2h warriors have access to a 330-ish damage weapon, while the damage on a staff is 81 max. You'd need a 400% multiplier for it to be equivalent to the auto attack of reaver/katari/avaar (given that SB does aoe damage, while the maul does not).

 

I still don't understand what was wrong with the 400, then 300 multiplier. All SB did then was being equivalent to a 2handed warrior auto attack, while costing resources every use, while attacks were doing the opposite for warriors - generating stamina. (300 made more sense, as it puts it in line with the dragon greatsword, which does aoe)

 

I love that in all the rather insanely drastic changes about which I mused, you stuck on the very first one and didn't seem to understand what I was suggesting.

 

Spirit Blade would be your basic attack, not an ability. What you are saying is like saying that the Virtuoso's Palm Blast should deal 300-400% weapon damage. 

 

Aside, my suggestion was more random musings than an actual suggestion, as I made clear to state... Twice.

[SkillSpray]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nitpicking your suggestions.

 

I completely agree with the idea of removing fade shield and beefing up AW's armor, so he feels more like a warrior (I stated that in an earlier post). By giving SB a 100% modifier he would deal even less damage with it than he does now with SB. IF the devs speed up the animation, there's a limit to how much they can do that before it starts looking funny, to deal any reasonable amount of damage with it (being the autoattack, etc)

Virtuoso's palm deals damage much more often (i'd guess at the same rate as basic autoattacks with a staff on any other mage), therefore no multiplier on it.

 

Now, the swing timers are comparable to a 2 handed weapon, therefore the damage should be also comparable. I actually revisited my single player campaign now, and the Knight Enchanter's SB (400% multiplier in single player) does more or less the same damage as my inquisitor's autoattacks (2 handed reaver). This is by no means broken, as the damage of SB alone is still underwhelming. SB spamming would be equivalent to a katari autoattacking his way till he extracts in multiplayer. I was merely implying that the SB nerf was unwarranted.

 

Why I quoted this bit is that it was already like this earlier, it's a matter of multipliers. The other suggestions would require a patch. 

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Why I quoted this bit is that it was already like this earlier, it's a matter of multipliers. The other suggestions would require a patch. 

 

Just so we're clear... My suggestion will see the light of day about the same time Sid Barrett reforms Pink Floyd. No patch in the world will bring my suggestion around lol.

 

But for the sake of playing into supposition, I think I should better clarify what I meant so you can understand an apples-to-apples comparison:

 

First, I don't want to remove Fade Shield. Please go back and reread that. I thought it was a pretty cool idea (obvious bias there).

 

Virtuoso's palm blast basic attack deals, like, what? 1.2 attacks per second? Single target, no multi-hit finisher like a normal mage's staff. It's actually painfully under powered compared to any standard mage. Keep in mind I am just talking the basic attack (for anyone about to argue how powerful the Virtuoso is).

 

Now, with Spirit Blade on the Arcane Warrior, the attack speed I think averages out to about 0.9 attacks per second, if you count the animation delay after the second strike before the chain resets. This could easily be sped up to around 1.5 a.p.s. safely. Mixing this with the fact that every swing is AoE and that it would be pure Spirit Damage, this would easily give the Arcane Warrior a more powerful basic attack than every other mage (without being overpowered). Again, we're talking just the basic attack, not abilities.

 

Now, that is just the basic attack. My idea would be to gear all of the Arcane Warrior's abilities toward CQC. However, one thing you have to consider is offense versus defense balance. If you put a lot of power into offense by, say, giving the basic attack a 3-4x multiplier, this means that defenses would have to be shunted to make the class feel more balanced. That would mean you would have essentially a Warrior that would be, in effect, squishier than the Avvar.

 

My idea was to give him a stronger basic attack than all other mages, then build him with a choice of one or two offensive skills, a few buffing skills, and a bit more defensive skills. The idea on being more defensively-minded is because that is his weakness. Even with buffed armour, a mage (I believe) has lower health values than a warrior, meaning he will still be squishy.

 

So say we had 10 active abilities to choose from. I would break it down like this:
2 offensive damage abilities.

- One would be some kind of advanced Spirit Blade skill that does heavy damage but has a cooldown, maybe like a Mighty Blow (for example)

- One would be some kind of reverse-gap-closer like the revamp to Pull of the Abyss, but upgrade would add a heavy Spirit Blade Slash at the end (think Grapple Chain + Give Them The Boot, only Arcane Warrior style).

3 support (buffing) abilities

- One offensive damage buff, maybe something like Horn of Valour's damage bonus

- One offensive speed bonus, maybe like Rampage but without life-steal (don't need that with Fade Shield Guard generation)

- One other I can't think of.

5 defensive/utility abilities

- One defensive temporary immunity, Fade Cloak works perfectly here.

- One team defensive buff, Rally would fit well here.

- One movement utility ability, Fade Step would work, but maybe tweak it to fit more (upgrade dealing Spirit Damage instead of Cold/Chilling)

- Two others I can't think of.

 

 

Again I will reiterate that my suggestion will almost certain remain just in my head, as the extent of the overhaul is immense. It won't happen. You don't need to worry lol.

[Spin-Orbit]

I argue my non SB build is also superior to SB builds for a lot of reasons, including survive-ability, because in part control based builds work better, and it is a LOT more team friendly (on top of more damage, even before SB was nerfed).

Drasca your missing the point of this thread. It is not to see who has better build, or how to make the best build for AW. Its how to make AW work and keep the unique aspects of the warrior/mage.

That got me thinking: What if Spirit Blade replaced basic attack for the Arcane Warrior? Hes meant to be a melee mage, isn't he? Speed up the attack speed of Spirit Blade just a little bit, make it cost no mana, and deal 100% Spirit Weapon Damage.
 
What does that do?

• Makes the Arcane Warrior unique in several facets, including being the only character that deals pure Spirit Damage with a basic attack (being that there are no enemies resistant and several that are weak to it)
• Gives the Arcane Warrior and "always on" melee option, freeing up four slots for any other skills.
• Makes the Arcane Warrior a more valuable ranged/melee hybrid

Now, the second issue and complaint heard frequently with the Arcane Warrior is Fade Shield, the passive that is almost forced on players at level 2. The problem with this, as Luke has mentioned many times, is that Barrier in general is OP. This got me thinking again: One of the major benefits of the Arcane Warrior in Dragon Age: Origins was the ability to wear heavier armours. Why not up the Arcane Warrior's armour level to that of a 2h warrior and make Fade Shield a Guard generation instead of Barrier? 30% of damage dealt generated as Guard may be pretty hefty...
 
What does that do?

• Makes the Arcane Warrior more of the warrior and less of the spandex-wearing ballerina.
• Fade Shield would have a significantly better Guard generation rate that the Katari, making up for the lower overall Health of the Arcane Warrior.

Next, my biggest peeve of the Arcane Warrior is his complete lack of self/team-buffs. The Arcane Warrior to me was not designed as a Controller, which he really favours in DAIMP having all of the Rift Mage abilities/passives. He should replace Veilstrike with some kind of mage equivalent to Walking Fortress, Horn of Valour, Rally, or Rampage. Dispel should be replaced with a sort of Spell Purge. Essentially, all abilities that are targetable AoE should be reworked geared more toward a melee play style, or replaced with abilities that better benefit melee.
 
What does that do?

• Replaces the crowd-controlling skills already possessed in part by other mages with unique skills that fit the warrior-mage concept.
• Gives the Arcane Warrior suvivability and utility at higher levels.

Essentially kind of like an AoE version of Grapple Chain, quickly bringing enemies into melee range, where the Arcane Warrior is meant to be.

Now, the swing timers are comparable to a 2 handed weapon, therefore the damage should be also comparable. I actually revisited my single player campaign now, and the Knight Enchanter's SB (400% multiplier in single player) does more or less the same damage as my inquisitor's autoattacks (2 handed reaver). This is by no means broken, as the damage of SB alone is still underwhelming. SB spamming would be equivalent to a katari autoattacking his way till he extracts in multiplayer. I was merely implying that the SB nerf was unwarranted.

I agree with you and all seems to center around the SB and FS. Besides the fact as Angelus pointed out that the passive are too much like a range mage rather than in the thick of things warrior.

In DA:O they solved the issue of SB by the longsword Spellweaver, it was his staff and hit hard as a good longsword. In addition he was able to cast spells in melee range. So these would be quick short animation spells. In DA:I they changed the weapon to SB but as suggested it can be his basic attack if hit harder as well as melee based spells possibly ice/fire mine centered on the AW type of spells.

Some of these ideas are great in my opinion and not necessarily require a extensive modification.

[rich]

Hi Spin-Orbit,

 

First of all, thanks for moderating this very multi-dimensional topic. It's tough to be unbiased like you are doing. J My general view is AW is the best carrying class, or safety valve class in case of a major oh **** moment needing multiple rez’s, or easier intro into perilous class, or some might say tied with duelist for being the most versatile class with strong defense and several ranged + up close abilities. 

 

One suggestion: we all have different experiences in the game (routine/threatening/perilous difficulties, venatori/red templar/demons factions [some enemies are more/less immune to AW attacks], leaderboard stats/non-leaderboard stats, inquisition weapons/ full equipment set, different levels/builds, skill/no skill), so we aren’t doing a clean apples to apples comparison all the time. Could you please help give us a baseline to work from (ie 80/80/80 stats, BIS equipment, nightmare mode)? That way it’s easier to understand where we are all coming from.

 

These are the levers off the top of my head available to tweak AW (some repeated from other folks):

 

1) Give some enemies + damage bonus versus barrier (ie +200%). For nightmare mode?

2) Give some enemies dispel ability, to remove/reduce barriers. For nightmare mode?

3) Give some enemies greater resistance to AW attacks ie lightning etc. For nightmare mode?

- Note some enemies are immune to chain lightning such as pride demon and some venatori mages on perilous, so it is hard for CL spamming AW’s to mow those guys down easily.

4) Reduce/remove exp for AW’s self-barriering fade shield. I don’t know if the warrior folks gets exp for guard generation.. I imagine it should be the same for both AW’s and warriors self barrier/guard generation.

5) Reduce max fade shield barrier, ie 30% less than current

6) Reduce fade shield generation to 20% (from 30%)

7) Side note- Virtuoso can also generate a pretty beefy barrier, for the whole party. Is the Virtuoso’s barrier (or any mage’s barrier) overpowered?

 

I’m pretty OK with SB as it is. I use SB with conductive current damage bonus, to finish off enemies for dramatic effects. I use the other skills to whittle down enemies. The top of the line mage staff (dragon staff) is fire based, so staff basic attacks are useless against the fire dragon. SB with dragon staff dragon-damage bonus ends up being pretty decent in my opinion. 

 

PS3 / richh2000 

 

Drasca your missing the point of this thread. It is not to see who has better build, or how to make the best build for AW. Its how to make AW work and keep the unique aspects of the warrior/mage.



I agree with you and all seems to center around the SB and FS. Besides the fact as Angelus pointed out that the passive are too much like a range mage rather than in the thick of things warrior.

In DA:O they solved the issue of SB by the longsword Spellweaver, it was his staff and hit hard as a good longsword. In addition he was able to cast spells in melee range. So these would be quick short animation spells. In DA:I they changed the weapon to SB but as suggested it can be his basic attack if hit harder as well as melee based spells possibly ice/fire mine centered on the AW type of spells.

Some of these ideas are great in my opinion and not necessarily require a extensive modification.