In DA:O they solved the issue of SB by the longsword Spellweaver, it was his staff and hit hard as a good longsword.
Oh how I miss Spellweaver... So many fond memories...
In Awakening I turned Anders into an Spirit Healer / Arcane Warrior / Battle Mage (+ Haste spell) using Spellweaver... He nearly rivaled my dual-wielding Champion / Reaver / Berserker (+Warden Blood attack speed Spell) on damage, plus he literally never took damage... So bloody overpowering, but oh so fun...
Why are you arguing for a non-Spirit Blade build? Please reread the following:
Spirit Blade was and should be the focal point of the Arcane Warrior as a class. It’s an exclusive ability. But, currently, playing primarily ranged is the most productive way to play the character.
Also,
Do yourself a favor and quit claiming Non-Spirit Blade builds did more damage than Spirit Blade builds before the Spirit Blade nerf, because that was only the case for about two weeks. Before the fix to Gathering Storm, Spirit Bladeless AW’s were non-existent. Only after the fix to Gathering Storm was a build without Spirit Blade worth doing.
It is widely accepted that ever since the Nerf to Spirit Blade AND MORE IMPORTANTLY the fix to Gathering Storm you’re better off replacing Spirit Blade ASAP. If anything is currently a crutch it’s the Non-SB AW.
Most of your analysis is fantastic and spot on. However you're missing some things. You forget how useful weakness, stagger and knockdown are, (FC/Mind Blast/SF), and the option to Dispel.
The part about PotA however is also not true, as evidenced by no SB + Pota based builds. Mine in particular maximized the weakness, paralyze and sleep combos and synergies. Currently Wavebend fancies one that replaces CL with Dispel. I'm not the only one who can pull off my build.
What isn't true about what I say about POA below? I never advocated a Spirit Blade + POA build.
Playing the Arcane Warrior this way makes it harder to stay alive, though. POA does no direct damage and as a result doesn’t generate barrier. It also takes time to cast and costs a significant amount of mana. Because of this the class is more susceptible to being hit without a barrier active and becomes less survivable. Lesser geared and lower promoted players can’t stay alive AS WELL while doing this.
I didn’t forget how useful weakness, stagger and knockdown are nor the option to dispel. All of those are the result of POA and or properly executing sleep combos (use of Stonefist), which I covered in my post. Lets be honest though, how often are dispel detonations really going to happen in a PUG setting? Never.
I would also like to point out that using POA and executing said sleep combos wasn’t nearly as effective until the Gathering Storm fix. Before the Gathering Storm fix many people ran POA with Spirit Blade. Yarpen was one of them. Like I mentioned above its obvious to everyone Spirit Blade is better left unused in its current state. Your evidence is not evidence.
Those not familiar with mine can go here to combo king under AW:
http://forum.bioware...rite-mp-builds/
There is a skill element involved of course, but that's always been the case if you want higher performance.
Doubt anyone came here looking for build advise but if anyone is having issues with survival / solo ability using the above build just substitute Frost Step for POA. Frost Step gives you an ability that costs no Mana and offers great mobility. It can be used defensively or offensively to generate barrier and has a low cool-down.
The other minor point of contention is this number is completely wrong, because of poor math understanding of the combat formula. Not as big of a deal though considering MP has since been rebalanced with different values.
You're right its not a big deal. The original damage in the tool-tip was 300%. Luke has confirmed the upgrade to spirit blade added an extra 100%.
As it was erroneous and not described in the upgrade and I never tested it, I'm unsure whether it was being added as an ability multiplier or a damage multiplier.
From my testing, there isn't an ultimate AW build that works for everything. The best build(s) will usually depend on the faction you're playing against and will depend on your staff elemental type.
I use a variety of builds and am still using SB (yup).
Just to weigh in with my opinions on the AW as a whole:
Spirit Blade and Fade Shield need a complete rework. As I've mentioned previously Fade Shield scales outrageously with your weapons - the problem with reducing it is that it becomes useless for new players with low damage weapons if the damage is too low. I have a few ideas on how to fix both of these but they're basically completly new and if I'm going to do that I'd like to just rebuild the whole AW tree to make it more of a melee/mage hybrid.
As Drasca points out there are a LOT of variables that you're not aware of for these decisions but I still appreciate any feedback, I just filter out/ignore some of it when it conflicts with those variables 
I would also like to point out that using POA and executing said sleep combos wasn’t nearly as effective until the Gathering Storm fix. Before the Gathering Storm fix many people ran POA with Spirit Blade. Yarpen was one of them. Like I mentioned above its obvious to everyone Spirit Blade is better left unused in its current state. Your evidence is not evidence.
Spirit Blade and Fade Shield need a complete rework
No, they don't. Spirit Blade was totally fine before it was nerfed into the ground. Fade shield has always been the issue here, we've been saying it from day one. I can't think of anyone whos made a single complaint about Spirit Blade since this forum has existed. It really irritates me when we get completely blindsided by the devs with nerfs like this. Instead of actually reworking a mechanic (which would take work) we just have a skill nerfed because its an easy band aid that can just be slapped on. We saw this with Rampage/Dragon Rage and we have it now with Spirit Blade. I would trust say, Drascas word over any bioware developer as to whats overpowered or not, because he has played a lot more than any dev and is competent at all difficulties, whereas the devs on twitch struggle to even complete a perilous round with a full team. I remember watching a livestream where a dev didn't even know what Fade Cloak was.
Let me make this perfectly clear, since it obviously hasn't been these past 6 months: Spirit Blade is not overpowered, fade shield is.
Fade Shield would be perfectly balanced if it just had a cap on the strength of the barrier you can generate, lets say 1000 hit points. Enough to sponge a few arrows on perilous, and it scales nicely with difficulty. Enemies on lower difficulties deal less damage so you dont need to generate as much shields to reap the benefits of it, because the net result is the same (sponging a few hits before its destroyed).
Another thing to possibly look at is mana generation. You can currently cycle stone fist/chain lightning/POTA/ whatever with no mana issues whatsoever. That allows high mana cost abilities to be spammed as soon as they are available. With options like fade cloak/step, this means that you can have barrier generation almost 100% of the time. If mana generation wasn't so strong, then you wouldn't be able to spam these abilities so much.
I use a variety of builds and am still using SB (yup).
You still play the AW? C'mon man.
No, they don't. Spirit Blade was totally fine before it was nerfed into the ground. Fade shield has always been the issue here, we've been saying it from day one. I can't think of anyone whos made a single complaint about Spirit Blade since this forum has existed. It really irritates me when we get completely blindsided by the devs with nerfs like this. Instead of actually reworking a mechanic (which would take work) we just have a skill nerfed because its an easy band aid that can just be slapped on. We saw this with Rampage/Dragon Rage and we have it now with Spirit Blade. I would trust say, Drascas word over any bioware developer as to whats overpowered or not, because he has played a lot more than any dev and is competent at all difficulties, whereas the devs on twitch struggle to even complete a perilous round with a full team. I remember watching a livestream where a dev didn't even know what Fade Cloak was.
Let me make this perfectly clear, since it obviously hasn't been these past 6 months: Spirit Blade is not overpowered, fade shield is.
Fade Shield would be perfectly balanced if it just had a cap on the strength of the barrier you can generate, lets say 1000 hit points. Enough to sponge a few arrows on perilous, and it scales nicely with difficulty. Enemies on lower difficulties deal less damage so you dont need to generate as much shields to reap the benefits of it, because the net result is the same (sponging a few hits before its destroyed).
Another thing to possibly look at is mana generation. You can currently cycle stone fist/chain lightning/POTA/ whatever with no mana issues whatsoever. That allows high mana cost abilities to be spammed as soon as they are available. With options like fade cloak/step, this means that you can have barrier generation almost 100% of the time. If mana generation wasn't so strong, then you wouldn't be able to spam these abilities so much.
It is widely accepted that ever since the Nerf to Spirit Blade AND MORE IMPORTANTLY the fix to Gathering Storm you’re better off replacing Spirit Blade ASAP. If anything is currently a crutch it’s the Non-SB AW.
Popular does not make for correct. The Non SB build was doing better even before the GS fix.
Playing the Arcane Warrior this way makes it harder to stay alive, though. POA does no direct damage and as a result doesn’t generate barrier.
What isn't true about what I say about POA below?
That part is incorrect, as Pota makes it easier to survive through control, force multiplication gathering enemies in a central spot, weakness and its passive benefits.
Lets be honest though, how often are dispel detonations really going to happen in a PUG setting? Never.
As for the sleep combos...
Dispel is a clunky spell.
Mind Blast / Dispel detonations are Nightmare Combos. Sleep combos are putting enemies to sleep via shock + weaken. I'm not a huge fan of NM combos, that said, looks like plenty of folks here don't have trouble pulling NM combos off-- Like yarpen though I prefer MB
I don't need 'everyone' to use my build to be better, as it isn't a popularity contest. I only need to make it do better than the previous builds out there. On Perilous the non FS / SB builds did better on every important metric: Damage, Survival, Control and Exp. SB and FS builds did less damage, provided less exp and control of the enemy, as putting the enemy into eldtrich detonations, knockdown, weaken, shock, paralyze (xp), sleep (xp), into one spot (kill faster), and with team combos (more exp), provides a much more platform for faster killing and inherently generates more support exp as Chill (frost step) / SB (blocked) does not.
if anyone is having issues with survival / solo ability using the above build just substitute Frost Step for POA
Frost step is a terrible noob ability for threatening and below, best for when you're moving rather than killing, but worse when you're struggling against bigger attacks. It slows down killing speed and enemy predictability. Wavebend absolutely loves this ability, but even he swaps it out when survival became an issue.
I would trust say, Drascas word over any bioware developer as to whats overpowered or not, because he has played a lot more than any dev and is competent at all difficulties, whereas the devs on twitch struggle to even complete a perilous round with a full team. I remember watching a livestream where a dev didn't even know what Fade Cloak was.
Spirit Blade and Fade Shield need a complete rework. As I've mentioned previously Fade Shield scales outrageously with your weapons - the problem with reducing it is that it becomes useless for new players with low damage weapons if the damage is too low. I have a few ideas on how to fix both of these but they're basically completly new and if I'm going to do that I'd like to just rebuild the whole AW tree to make it more of a melee/mage hybrid.
As Drasca points out there are a LOT of variables that you're not aware of for these decisions but I still appreciate any feedback, I just filter out/ignore some of it when it conflicts with those variables
So basically the gist is that not much is going to happen with this class.. certainly not in the near term.. potentially not ever.
I am fine with this, tbh.
No, they don't. Spirit Blade was totally fine before it was nerfed into the ground. Fade shield has always been the issue here, we've been saying it from day one. I can't think of anyone whos made a single complaint about Spirit Blade since this forum has existed. It really irritates me when we get completely blindsided by the devs with nerfs like this
I can think of plenty of complaints against SB. I don't really want to drag up the historical posts, but it annoyed me greatly when all I saw was SB spamming. Proto wrote a great post about exactly why that's annoying earlier on this thread.
I have no immediate solutions on the SB issue though. I agree with Luke in that both SB and FS need a complete rework.
I am surprised by all this Arcane Warrior discussions...Currently the AW is viable, some might say overpowered, but not perfectly balanced. What i am missing here is the fact we have so many threads about the AW and almost zero about other underpowered or unbalanced classes. How does a hunter even compare to an archer? how can an assassin or alchemist compare to a duelist? why is it that i can't properly provoke multiple mobs on legionnaire/templar which is clearly meant to tank? how can guard even compete against barrier? why are we talking about AW being overpowered while a virtuoso can stand in the front row, spam barrier, buff party members, debuff mobs (even dispel some heavy damaging effects like the lightning floor AoE in the FC Z5 dragon fight) and single target/AoE target dmg mobs (also, there's an infinite mana bug which enables you to spam songs)?
While playing in PUGs often, most Arcane Warriors still die repeatedly. You get the feelings, in some threads/posts, here, that the AW is impossible to kill. I think only advanced players can play the AW to an extend he can barely die. 80-90% of the people still find AW not overpowered, only an viable alternative.
To sum up my point here: I'm more worried playing on Legionnaire, Templar, Assassin, Alchemist and Hunter which are, in my opinion grave underpowered.
I can think of plenty of complaints against SB. I don't really want to drag up the historical posts, but it annoyed me greatly when all I saw was SB spamming. Proto wrote a great post about exactly why that's annoying earlier on this thread.
I have no immediate solutions on the SB issue though. I agree with Luke in that both SB and FS need a complete rework.
There is no issue with Spirit Blade. Never was. It was the SB spam that generated FS at such a huge rate that it never depleted, thus making you invulnerable. If fade shield was nerfed/overhauled then SB would no longer be an issue.
What i am missing here is the fact we have so many threads about the AW and almost zero about other underpowered or unbalanced classes.
Please do make these discussion threads. They are worth discussing.
AW have always been awful classes in any game I have ever played. Always over powered, always. I do agree with pork on this one, the blade itself was certainly not over powered, the barrier gen was. At least it is being looked at, in any case even with the initial ultra powered AW I often played at range anyway with pota.
Popular does not make for correct. The Non SB build was doing better even before the GS fix.
Then why did it take the GS fix for you to post your build? No, it certainly was not.
That part is incorrect, as Pota makes it easier to survive through control, force multiplication gathering enemies in a central spot, weakness and its passive benefits.
Yes its easier to control, if the spell actually pulls the mobs in and you don't get sniped during the clunky and slow placement and casting animation. As I said in the initial post, its tougher for the lower-geared and lower-promoted players to pull this play-style off. I agree POA is great if you aren't going to die to stray arrows while casting it. Unfortunately, that scenario happens more often than you're likely to admit. This is why we see so many Arcane Warriors in the higher difficulties without POA. They can't survive with it. As a result, they play the Frost Step variation and use Chain Lightning and Stone Fist, hopefully. You forget I advocated that the only way for an Arcane Warrior to be useful in a team-oriented way is by using POA and or creating the combos. We agree on that.
I can see how you wouldn't get this though, you have probably never had the opportunity to play "your" build with less than 30/30/30 and that's being generous. In reality you've probably never played it without far more promotions than that nor without a top 5 staff and good accessories.
Mind Blast / Dispel detonations are Nightmare Combos. Sleep combos are putting enemies to sleep via shock + weaken. I'm not a huge fan of NM combos, that said, looks like plenty of folks here don't have trouble pulling NM combos off-- Like yarpen though I prefer MB
You were the one who brought up Dispel detonations, I just pointed out they rarely happen. I guess you agree. I've posted a vid of Snakebite using Mind Blast on his Necro while I put things to sleep on the AW. It works great. Just isn't going to occur for a PUG.
Frost step is a terrible noob ability for threatening and below, best for when you're moving rather than killing, but worse when you're struggling against bigger attacks. It slows down killing speed and enemy predictability. Wavebend absolutely loves this ability, but even he swaps it out when survival became an issue.
Looooool. L2FrostStep. Must be those clunky mouse and keyboard controls again. I agree with Wavebend, one of the more fun abilities in the game. Do I use it all the time? No, but it certainly is useful. Staple on my Keeper.
I have a few ideas on how to fix both of these but they're basically completely new and if I'm going to do that I'd like to just rebuild the whole AW tree to make it more of a melee/mage hybrid.
I honestly was not expecting you to be of the same opinion, Luke... I just chalked up my idea for a rework as "warm fuzzy thoughts" that would never happen.
Even if my ideas are still too extreme or generally not workable, I still support a complete rework of the AW as a whole. He really should be a melee-focused mage, not a mage with a single melee ability.
Looooool. L2FrostStep. Must be those clunky mouse and keyboard controls again.
Frost step just doesn't cut it anymore. I liked it a lot (even more than CL) because it didn't put enemies to sleep, allowing all potential weakened bonuses to trigger, didn't cost mana and didn't have any casting time. I wouldn't say I found a better alternative, but sometimes you have to swap things up a little bit..
Spirit Blade and Fade Shield need a complete rework. As I've mentioned previously Fade Shield scales outrageously with your weapons - the problem with reducing it is that it becomes useless for new players with low damage weapons if the damage is too low. I have a few ideas on how to fix both of these but they're basically completly new and if I'm going to do that I'd like to just rebuild the whole AW tree to make it more of a melee/mage hybrid.
My other thought on this: Instead of reworking the AW, why not just actually create a new kit that is a melee/mage hybrid - like you want. Every new DLC contains new kits - make this one of them. I think this would also be more in line with your 'undisclosed' company variables / decision making process.
I think this is also the better idea because you are not replacing content (cutting out original and adding something to take its place), you are just adding new content - this is always better.
My other thought on this: Instead of reworking the AW, why not just actually create a new kit that is a melee/mage hybrid - like you want. Every new DLC contains new kits - make this one of them. I think this would also be more in line with your 'undisclosed' company variables / decision making process.
I think this is also the better idea because you are not replacing content (cutting out original and adding something to take its place), you are just adding new content - this is always better.
Battlemage concept?
Battlemage concept?
You mean from DA:O - Awakenings? I think that would be awesome.
My other thought on this: Instead of reworking the AW, why not just actually create a new kit that is a melee/mage hybrid - like you want. Every new DLC contains new kits - make this one of them. I think this would also be more in line with your 'undisclosed' company variables / decision making process
You mean... like the Avvar? 2Her, check, elemental abilities check... if he weren't in the Avvar culture, he'd be considered a mage by the Chantry.
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