1472 réponses à ce sujet

[Hair Serious Business]

Well, I'm sure they won't pull something like that again. i have hope for the next game that they would do the gay romance right, not the Kelly and Asari are not real lesbians, and maleShep is straight but femShep is bi. They have more excuses than my aunt Margaret. I have worries with Mac Walter is still on the team, but I hope that we get the same equal treatment other romance options have. I don't ask for any special treatment but equal treatment, at the end of the day, really. 

 

Agreed.

 

All asaris are pansexuals so counting them as either hetero or homosexual is ridicules. Kelly...who? I recall sleeping with her only to have someone to feed my fish  I seriously want something Dorian like for ME:A.....minus "My dad is homophobe, we didn't agree so I ran away", sorry I love everything about my fabulous Moustache-Sparkles but that was a bit cringe-worthy in here of how classical stereotypical it was.

[vbibbi]

Considering the Mass Effect team is part of BioWare, yeah that's pretty ridiculous.

 

You do realize that before BioWare Montreal started developing MEA, all BioWare's main games were developed at BioWare Edmonton? They have different writers, but it was the same developers making both series. BioWare Montreal was just a supplemental studio previously.

 

You are making a subjective argument claiming Kaidan and Cortez are "inferior." The truth of the matter is BioWare didn't have to include any romances at all. Back in the days of KotOR 1, they didn't even show kissing... I'm curious as to what you think a great romance is, as the heterosexual romance options weren't that great in the trilogy either. Aside from Miranda, I really didn't like any of the choices male Shepard had among female companions.

 

You can be cynical and just believe fan pressure made BioWare include these characters, but ultimately it's BioWare's decision to make. They write these characters and they decide how they want to be used. Even with a different studio developing the game, Mac Walters (lead writer on ME3) is still the creative director and is in charge of the direction the game goes. We'll see how much exactly changes, but given your response I'm not sure anything BioWare does will live up to your standards.

I mean...Jade Empire faded to black before we could see a same sex couple kiss, but it showed the heterosexual couple kissing.

 

The argument that Bioware didn't have to include any romances, so be happy with what you did receive is a little strange. Yeah I'm glad they finally added m/m romances in ME3, but I don't think I should feel grateful that they've finally included a romance for me, since they "didn't have to" include any romances.

[Revan Reborn]

I mean...Jade Empire faded to black before we could see a same sex couple kiss, but it showed the heterosexual couple kissing.

 

The argument that Bioware didn't have to include any romances, so be happy with what you did receive is a little strange. Yeah I'm glad they finally added m/m romances in ME3, but I don't think I should feel grateful that they've finally included a romance for me, since they "didn't have to" include any romances.

Jade Empire was the first BioWare game to show kissing. KotOR 1, two years before it, didn't even show a kiss.

 

My argument is there was no precedent for what BioWare was doing at all. Be happy that they actually care and are trying to cater to as many sexual orientations as they can. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither is adding a complex and voluminous list of different romances targeted at different demographics.

 

The majority of gamers in the industry are heterosexual males. No other studio bothers catering to other demographics when it comes to romance. The fact BioWare is doing it at all is a major step in the right direction and a huge achievement. They've also have consistently gotten better and continue to provide more as they genuinely want to please as many people as possible.

 

I was just clarifying it made sense why ME1 and ME2 didn't have a lot of options. Instead of criticizing BioWare that they "don't care about gay men," perhaps they actually do and it just takes time for them to really do this kind of content justice. I'm not telling you to "be happy with what you get." What I am saying is it is getting better and there was a reason getting this kind of content into BioWare games took so long to start.

[Jalepeno Fire]

Kaidan's "gay" scenes are shorter because Kaidan is a heterosexual character and BW gave an in game BoyBoy mod in order to permit a romance for Bro Sheps in M3 in some bad attempt at being "socially progressive" and "inclusive", and this modded romance nothing more than his real romance with most of the content removed due to it being gender specific.

Kaidan has no place in these conversations about how much BW or the ME team care about gay men or gay romance stories, because he isn't gay or bisexual.

By that logic Garrus and Tali were both canon asexual considering they weren't LI's and showed zero attraction to Shepard throughout the game and they suddenly turned straight in ME2.

Although I would rather they just have the gay/bi LI like that from the start instead of them being into dudes after three games. (but the same could be said for Shepard).

[Midnight Bliss]

Well regardless of whether there is a mod or not, BioWare chose to implement it into the game, and the fact that the option exists for MaleSheps to romance Kaidans, trying to be more inclusive or not, and despite it being shortened from the FemShep one for whatever reason, the fact that the option is there, in the main game and the two DLCs Leviathan and Citadel, hardly says to me that Kaidan is a heterosexual character, at least not in ME3 or any of the subsequent DLC. 

The problem is that it's never mentioned anywhere, it's never acknowledged and it's completely dependent on a player decision. It's just a mod that they gave players because they didn't want to make James gay and let him be the romance. (I'm not saying he should have been gay, but he would have been the only choice)

Bare in mind I'm saying this as somebody who loves Kaidan to death and would love a gay LI like him in a BW game, but with an actual gay character.

 

I don't have a problem with people who enjoyed his boyboy romance though, he's so wonderful I certainly understand why people would want to play it out in spite of it's flaws, especially since BW other gay romance choices are all kind of terrible.

 

By that logic Garrus and Tali were both canon asexual considering they weren't LI's and showed zero attraction to Shepard throughout the game and they suddenly turned straight in ME2.

Although I would rather they just have the gay/bi LI like that from the start instead of them being into dudes after three games. (but the same could be said for Shepard).

Tali and Garrus were always straight, it just never came up in ME1, and them having/not having an attraction to Shepard is irrelevant.

 

So no, that's a false equivalency because Kaidan was established as heterosexual from the beginning and never had gay feelings of any type outside that mod, and even that was just his canon straight romance with a Bro Shep slapped on and most of the content removed.

[Jalepeno Fire]

The problem is that it's never mentioned anywhere, it's never acknowledged and it's completely dependent on a player decision. It's just a mod that they gave players because they didn't want to make James gay and let him be the romance. (I'm not saying he should have been gay, but he would have been the only choice)
Bare in mind I'm saying this as somebody who loves Kaidan to death and would love a gay LI like him in a BW game, but with an actual gay character.

I don't have a problem with people who enjoyed his boyboy romance though, he's so wonderful I certainly understand why people would want to play it out in spite of it's flaws, especially since BW other gay romance choices are all kind of terrible.

Tali and Garrus were always straight, it just never came up in ME1, and them having/not having an attraction to Shepard is irrelevant.

So no, that's a false equivalency because Kaidan was established as heterosexual from the beginning and never had gay feelings of any type outside that mod, and even that was just his canon straight romance with a Bro Shep slapped on and most of the content removed.

Yeah, I was kind of confused by the Kaidan thing. I did romance him in my cannon run but I really would have preferred if he was available from the start. Personally I kind of liked the way the romance started in 3 though, it felt more emotional than sexual. (definitely a change from Zevran in Origins.) You're right though, the fact that Kaidan was into Shep in 3 doesn't change the fact that he was straight in 1 and 2 (minus "losing you was like losing a limb"). The whole thing's similar to what they did with Anders in DA2.

[vbibbi]

Jade Empire was the first BioWare game to show kissing. KotOR 1, two years before it, didn't even show a kiss.

 

My argument is there was no precedent for what BioWare was doing at all. Be happy that they actually care and are trying to cater to as many sexual orientations as they can. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither is adding a complex and voluminous list of different romances targeted at different demographics.

 

The majority of gamers in the industry are heterosexual males. No other studio bothers catering to other demographics when it comes to romance. The fact BioWare is doing it at all is a major step in the right direction and a huge achievement. They've also have consistently gotten better and continue to provide more as they genuinely want to please as many people as possible.

 

I was just clarifying it made sense why ME1 and ME2 didn't have a lot of options. Instead of criticizing BioWare that they "don't care about gay men," perhaps they actually do and it just takes time for them to really do this kind of content justice. I'm not telling you to "be happy with what you get." What I am saying is it is getting better and there was a reason getting this kind of content into BioWare games took so long to start.

 

But this demonstrates that same sex romances aren't (or weren't) the same level of priority as heterosexual romances. If it's a question of resources, Jade Empire decided to focus on the three straight romances and leave the two same sex ones with less content. No even mentioning that we had to jump through hoops to even enable the same sex romances. If it's a matter of offending people, why would someone who is offended by seeing a same sex couple kiss have even gotten to that point in the game? What reasonable explanation is there that the kiss scenes were treated differently? I don't see how it's relevant to mention that it was the first kissing scene in any of their games.

 

Since there was no precedent, it seems like it would have been easier for Bioware to treat all orientations exactly the same from the start. Kind of like how people now say that Kaidan and Anders are character-assassinated by "turning" them bi and forcing the gay agenda down their throats. Bioware created issues by retroactively "catching up" to equal romances when they could have avoided it by making everything equal to start with.

Yeah, I was kind of confused by the Kaidan thing. I did romance him in my cannon run but I really would have preferred if he was available from the start. Personally I kind of liked the way the romance started in 3 though, it felt more emotional than sexual. (definitely a change from Zevran in Origins.) You're right though, the fact that Kaidan was into Shep in 3 doesn't change the fact that he was straight in 1 and 2 (minus "losing you was like losing a limb"). The whole thing's similar to what they did with Anders in DA2.

It's a very nebulous topic so there's no way to really debate the issue, but I got a not completely straight vibe from both ME1 Kaidan and DAA Anders. This isn't proof in itself that they were planned bi, but IMO it is a bit of bi erasure if a character is assumed completely straight if they show an interest in the opposite sex. True, it would have been better if Kaidan had been m/m from the start, but since there is no romance in DAA there's no objective fact showing that Anders is not attracted to men. One of his banters with Nathaniel sounds very flirting from the English voice acting. Who knows if that was Bioware's direction or the VA's choice, though.

[Revan Reborn]

But this demonstrates that same sex romances aren't (or weren't) the same level of priority as heterosexual romances. If it's a question of resources, Jade Empire decided to focus on the three straight romances and leave the two same sex ones with less content. No even mentioning that we had to jump through hoops to even enable the same sex romances. If it's a matter of offending people, why would someone who is offended by seeing a same sex couple kiss have even gotten to that point in the game? What reasonable explanation is there that the kiss scenes were treated differently? I don't see how it's relevant to mention that it was the first kissing scene in any of their games.

 

Since there was no precedent, it seems like it would have been easier for Bioware to treat all orientations exactly the same from the start. Kind of like how people now say that Kaidan and Anders are character-assassinated by "turning" them bi and forcing the gay agenda down their throats. Bioware created issues by retroactively "catching up" to equal romances when they could have avoided it by making everything equal to start with.

Do I really have to spell this out for you? Of course same sex romances weren't "the same level of priority as heterosexual romances." Same sex romances appeal to a small minority of the entire fan base. Most gamers are heterosexual males, so of course BioWare is going to appeal to the largest demographic for the most amount of profit. Had BioWare, instead, decided to only focus on same sex romances and not heterosexual romances at the start, the game would have suffered financially. This is a business and you are not going to jeopardize your entire product's value on a minority of your player base.

 

I just believe your expectations are unrealistic and not in touch with reality. Not to mention, many of the writers for BioWare at the time were white, heterosexual males. Do you really believe they have the in-depth understanding to fully grasp other sexual orientations they do not identify with? If you are straight, you probably don't have a very good grasp of the attraction a gay couple would have with one another. Again, BioWare was laying the ground work to see if they could even do romances and it was far easier and financially smarter to start with the largest demographic and see how it was perceived.

 

Once they had a handle on the feature, they were able to branch out and do romances for other sexual orientations. Do you not remember the controversy over DAII? The whole debacle about "player sexual companions"? People were in an uproar just because most of the companions could be straight or gay based on how Hawke interacted with them. People saw this as bastardizing the understanding of bisexuality, which is why BioWare took a 180 degree turn and made sexual orientation for companions static and not based on player choices.

 

Sexual orientation is a hot topic and the last thing that would have made sense is for BioWare to try and accommodate every sexual orientation from the start when they had no idea if it would work and if people would even like it. Contrary to believe, BioWare doesn't have infinite funds or infinite time to make these games. They have to prioritize and not everything can make it into the final product. Not to mention, romance isn't even the point of a BioWare game to start. It's an optional gameplay feature that can be entirely ignored if people choose to do so. It is nowhere as important as actual gameplay and the story.

[daveliam]

Kaidan's "gay" scenes are shorter because Kaidan is a heterosexual character and BW gave an in game BoyBoy mod in order to permit a romance for Bro Sheps in M3 in some bad attempt at being "socially progressive" and "inclusive", and this modded romance nothing more than his real romance with most of the content removed due to it being gender specific.

 

Kaidan has no place in these conversations about how much BW or the ME team care about gay men or gay romance stories, because he isn't gay or bisexual.

 

I completely disagree with this.  You can't arbitrarily dismiss Kaidan because you don't like how he was implemented.  He was a bisexual character.  Period.

 

Jade Empire was the first BioWare game to show kissing. KotOR 1, two years before it, didn't even show a kiss.

 

My argument is there was no precedent for what BioWare was doing at all. Be happy that they actually care and are trying to cater to as many sexual orientations as they can. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither is adding a complex and voluminous list of different romances targeted at different demographics.

 

The majority of gamers in the industry are heterosexual males. No other studio bothers catering to other demographics when it comes to romance. The fact BioWare is doing it at all is a major step in the right direction and a huge achievement. They've also have consistently gotten better and continue to provide more as they genuinely want to please as many people as possible.

 

I was just clarifying it made sense why ME1 and ME2 didn't have a lot of options. Instead of criticizing BioWare that they "don't care about gay men," perhaps they actually do and it just takes time for them to really do this kind of content justice. I'm not telling you to "be happy with what you get." What I am saying is it is getting better and there was a reason getting this kind of content into BioWare games took so long to start.

 

I strongly agree with you that Kanye-esque "Bioware doesn't care about gay men" statement is absolutely untrue and unfair to Bioware.

 

However, the ME team was historically very unfair to gay men.  The whole "Shepard can't be gay unless you mean a lesbian, in which case, sure because that's hot" nonsense really was a pretty terrible approach to managing the requests for m/m content.  I totally understand why some gay guys are still a little gun-shy when it comes to the ME series.  Let's look at the numbers (only counting those who give the paramour achievement):

• Straight men - six options (5 of whom are companions who appear in multiple games)
• Straight women - four options (all of whom are companions who appear in multiple games)*
• Lesbians - three options (one of whom is a companion who appears in multiple games)
• Gay men - two options (one of whom is a companion who appears in multiple games)**

* Recognizing that, out of those four options - two of them are ended without the player's consent

** Recognizing that none of the options are available for romance until the final game

 

That's really not a great track record.  Gay men not only get the least amount of options, but also are the only demographic from this list that doesn't get a multi-game romance arc.  I'm a bit concerned about this still and I will be until I hear from them that gay guys are getting options again in this game. 

 

And, again, I agree with you that Rome wasn't built in a day and that we should celebrate Bioware for the progress that they have made.  But let's not forget these dates:

 

2000 - Baldur's Gate II

• First romances for straight males
• First romances for straight females
• First straight male companions (in games with romance)
• First straight female companions (in games with romance)

2003 - KOTOR

• First romance for lesbians
• First lesbian companion

2005 - Jade Empire

• First romance for gay males
• First bisexual female companion
• First bisexual male companion

2014 - Dragon Age: Inqusition

• First gay male companion

 

That's 14 years after introducing romances that we finally got a gay male companion.  That's a really long time.  And it was, literally, just the last game.  And, in total, there have only ever been 8 romances for gay males.  EVER.  In any Bioware game.  There are more romances for straight males in SWTOR alone than there are for gay males in every single Bioware game combined.  We've made progress, but let's not pretend that this isn't an issue that's still fresh.  Because it is.

 

I've said before and I mean it:  As long as they offer us two options, I'll be happy.  But until I hear the ME team (recognizing that it's a different team) say that we're getting this, I'll be guarded.  I'm not 100% sure that an ME game will treat me fairly.

[Revan Reborn]

<snip>

I'm not claiming anything is perfect. Far from it. Although, I think it's a little unfair to have all these expectations of BioWare when other video games, and the entertainment industry in general, doesn't even bother touching this subject.

 

That being said, BioWare is trying and they are genuinely getting better. My point is to just be conscientious that what they are pulling off isn't easy and there is no precedent for it in video games. As I said, there are a multitude of reasons for why incorporating more sexual orientations has been slow (money constraints, time constraints, business practicality of who the majority of the market is, sexuality of the writers, avoiding controversy and scandals, etc.).

 

A lot of planning has to go into all these characters and what sexual orientations they prefer. It's akin to walking on eggshells and the last thing BioWare wants to do is muck it all up and cause a nightmare far worse than the aftermath of ME3's ending. Just simply saying "they should have done all sexual orientations from the start" is unrealistic and completely disregards how development and business works.

 

I'd also argue Anders was technically the first example of a gay companion in DAII. Yes, he could also be straight, but that was due to BioWare trying to cater to straight, gay, and lesbian gamers all at once with the least amount of effort.

[vbibbi]

Do I really have to spell this out for you? Of course same sex romances weren't "the same level of priority as heterosexual romances." Same sex romances appeal to a small minority of the entire fan base. Most gamers are heterosexual males, so of course BioWare is going to appeal to the largest demographic for the most amount of profit. Had BioWare, instead, decided to only focus on same sex romances and not heterosexual romances at the start, the game would have suffered financially. This is a business and you are not going to jeopardize your entire product's value on a minority of your player base.

I'm not saying Bioware doesn't care about gay men. But you're not making a strong argument to me that they DO care, when you say that they weren't on the same level as straight romances. If they do care but to a lesser degree, that's just lip service trying to not offend anyone without actually putting additional content in. And if the attitude that the majority of gamers are straight men is a business model, Bioware is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by designing games to cater to one group instead of making it appeal to a broader audience. Companies don't just stick with their current customer base, they want to increase profit and try to gain new customers.
 

I just believe your expectations are unrealistic and not in touch with reality. Not to mention, many of the writers for BioWare at the time were white, heterosexual males. Do you really believe they have the in-depth understanding to fully grasp other sexual orientations they do not identify with? If you are straight, you probably don't have a very good grasp of the attraction a gay couple would have with one another. Again, BioWare was laying the ground work to see if they could even do romances and it was far easier and financially smarter to start with the largest demographic and see how it was perceived.

How are my expectations unrealistic? We've started off with zero same sex romances and now have multiple ones in the most recent games. We don't have any knowledge yet of MEA romances, of course.

To my knowledge, none of the writers were turian or quarian or asari and yet we still had those romances. I don't know why a gay romance requires a gay writer.

Honestly, as a gay person it's a little insulting that we were able to romance extraterrestrial creatures before a human of the same gender.
 

Once they had a handle on the feature, they were able to branch out and do romances for other sexual orientations. Do you not remember the controversy over DAII? The whole debacle about "player sexual companions"? People were in an uproar just because most of the companions could be straight or gay based on how Hawke interacted with them. People saw this as bastardizing the understanding of bisexuality, which is why BioWare took a 180 degree turn and made sexual orientation for companions static and not based on player choices.

Yeah they took fan feedback into account when designing romances in the next game. Something that wouldn't be possible if they don't even include any same sex romances to begin with. There's no feedback to provide.
 

Sexual orientation is a hot topic and the last thing that would have made sense is for BioWare to try and accommodate every sexual orientation from the start when they had no idea if it would work and if people would even like it. Contrary to believe, BioWare doesn't have infinite funds or infinite time to make these games. They have to prioritize and not everything can make it into the final product. Not to mention, romance isn't even the point of a BioWare game to start. It's an optional gameplay feature that can be entirely ignored if people choose to do so. It is nowhere as important as actual gameplay and the story.

It's all hindsight, but given the popularity of LGBT characters in their games, and the steady societal acceptance of LGBT people in the world (not universally yet I know) Bioware has benefited from depicting characters of different sexual orientations. Even people who complain about it are providing press. And any publicity is good publicity.

The resources tactic is weak, IMO. So DAO had the resources to do two straight and two bisexual romances, but ME2 only had resources to do 6 straight romances?

[vbibbi]

I'm not claiming anything is perfect. Far from it. Although, I think it's a little unfair to have all these expectations of BioWare when other video games, and the entertainment industry in general, doesn't even bother touching this subject.

 

That being said, BioWare is trying and they are genuinely getting better. My point is to just be conscientious that what they are pulling off isn't easy and there is no precedent for it in video games. As I said, there are a multitude of reasons for why incorporating more sexual orientations has been slow (money constraints, time constraints, business practicality of who the majority of the market is, sexuality of the writers, avoiding controversy and scandals, etc.).

 

A lot of planning has to go into all these characters and what sexual orientations they prefer. It's akin to walking on eggshells and the last thing BioWare wants to do is muck it all up and cause a nightmare far worse than the aftermath of ME3's ending. Just simply saying "they should have done all sexual orientations from the start" is unrealistic and completely disregards how development and business works.

 

I'd also argue Anders was technically the first example of a gay companion in DAII. Yes, he could also be straight, but that was due to BioWare trying to cater to straight, gay, and lesbian gamers all at once with the least amount of effort.

I still don't see how not including same sex romances in ME1 or 2 was reasonable, since Bioware already had precedent for same sex romances in previous games. And DAO had same sex romances. DAO started development in 2002. Mass Effect started development in 2005. The idea that Bioware was testing the waters by not including same sex romances in ME1 doesn't work if the waters have already been tested and they're concurrently working on another game that includes s/s.

 

The nature of social change isn't to agree with the status quo. Yes, Bioware is one of the few game companies that tackles sexual orientation, at least less as titillation and as an honest depiction. It was one of the pioneers in the gaming world. I do appreciate the work they've done, but that doesn't mean I should be grateful and sit down. Bioware should want to improve everything about their games, including same sex romances, not just coast because other companies aren't at their level.

[Revan Reborn]

I'm not saying Bioware doesn't care about gay men. But you're not making a strong argument to me that they DO care, when you say that they weren't on the same level as straight romances. If they do care but to a lesser degree, that's just lip service trying to not offend anyone without actually putting additional content in. And if the attitude that the majority of gamers are straight men is a business model, Bioware is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by designing games to cater to one group instead of making it appeal to a broader audience. Companies don't just stick with their current customer base, they want to increase profit and try to gain new customers.
 

How are my expectations unrealistic? We've started off with zero same sex romances and now have multiple ones in the most recent games. We don't have any knowledge yet of MEA romances, of course.

To my knowledge, none of the writers were turian or quarian or asari and yet we still had those romances. I don't know why a gay romance requires a gay writer.

Honestly, as a gay person it's a little insulting that we were able to romance extraterrestrial creatures before a human of the same gender.
 

Yeah they took fan feedback into account when designing romances in the next game. Something that wouldn't be possible if they don't even include any same sex romances to begin with. There's no feedback to provide.
 

It's all hindsight, but given the popularity of LGBT characters in their games, and the steady societal acceptance of LGBT people in the world (not universally yet I know) Bioware has benefited from depicting characters of different sexual orientations. Even people who complain about it are providing press. And any publicity is good publicity.

The resources tactic is weak, IMO. So DAO had the resources to do two straight and two bisexual romances, but ME2 only had resources to do 6 straight romances?

If BioWare didn't care about gay men, there wouldn't be any gay romances at all. End of story. They don't have to invest resources into romances that they don't care about. They have a limited budget and they could prioritize it in other places if they didn't care. It's really that simple.

 

There is no "if" about it. Straight men are the majority of gamers and always have been. They probably always will be. You don't seem to recognize how dangerous a topic sexual orientation can be for a product. Especially if BioWare were to do a terrible job, there would be a severe backlash. It's why most developers don't have same sex romances at all. Name one other game that puts in the amount of time and effort BioWare does for same sex romances.

 

There's a difference between sexual orientation and fictional aliens. One is real. The other is not. If you are not gay, bi, pansexual, etc., it may be difficult for you to write a story about an orientation you do not identify with. Would you really be okay if an all white, straight male team haphazardly wrote romances for all orientations based on what they "think" being gay or bi means? We've already seen BioWare get attacked harshly for how sexuality was handled in DAII.

 

ME and DA have two separate writing teams and two separate creative directors. What one team does in no way influences the choices of another. Considering ME2 was the first multiplatform game in the series, as ME1 was a X360 exclusive released a year later on PC, EA probably wanted to make the game as appealing as much as possible. Thus, they relied on appealing to the majority of the gaming market to do so.

 

I still don't see how not including same sex romances in ME1 or 2 was reasonable, since Bioware already had precedent for same sex romances in previous games. And DAO had same sex romances. DAO started development in 2002. Mass Effect started development in 2005. The idea that Bioware was testing the waters by not including same sex romances in ME1 doesn't work if the waters have already been tested and they're concurrently working on another game that includes s/s.

 

The nature of social change isn't to agree with the status quo. Yes, Bioware is one of the few game companies that tackles sexual orientation, at least less as titillation and as an honest depiction. It was one of the pioneers in the gaming world. I do appreciate the work they've done, but that doesn't mean I should be grateful and sit down. Bioware should want to improve everything about their games, including same sex romances, not just coast because other companies aren't at their level.

DAO had straight and bisexual companions. DAO did not have an actual gay or lesbian companion. Leliana and Zevran would swing either way and did not prefer one sex over the other.

 

I'm not saying you should "sit down." I'm saying you should recognize the work they have done and continue to do. Instead, we have people lashing out suggesting the "ME team doesn't care about gay men" which is absolutely absurd. If they didn't care, they wouldn't do any of this. They are improving and they will continue to get better. That doesn't mean you can't at least appreciate what they are doing a little bit.

[daveliam]

Two things:

1.) Anders is a bisexual character. Not gay. Confirmed. There's no wiggle room to say he's gay and this really needs to stop being 'a thing'. Because it's false.

2.). Can anyone provide any actual evidence that including s/s content is 'dangerous' for a game? Seriously? Because we have a lot of evidence of games that include it and are commercial successes. So until someone can link to any contemporary evidence that including s/s romance will hurt sales, I will dismiss this as hyperbole and/or anecdotal and/or assumption.

[daveliam]

Also, I agree that Bioware deserves credit. But deserving credit doesn't absolve you from past mistakes nor does it shield you from continued critique. Again, I think they are actually the best company for this content. But to act as if the issue is easily hand waved away because 'it takes time' is both naive and dismissive of the fact that they've been including s/s content for 13 years. That IS time. And progress HAD been made but it also needs to continue to happen.

[vbibbi]

If BioWare didn't care about gay men, there wouldn't be any gay romances at all. End of story. They don't have to invest resources into romances that they don't care about. They have a limited budget and they could prioritize it in other places if they didn't care. It's really that simple.

So which is it? Bioware didn't care about gay men in ME1 and 2, but then finally did in ME3? Or they always cared but it took time to show that they cared? The fact that there were female same sex romances in the first two games (including the pole dancing outfit Kelly wears in ME2) with no male s/s indicates to me that the team was more concerned with the straight male gaze, and ME3 finally introduced male s/s romances after fans complained about the lack of options for two games. That's not something I really feel like "thanking" them for and congratulating them. I'm glad it happened and I enjoyed the content I received in ME3, but I'm cynical enough to think it wasn't motivated by a desire to appease current fans and hopefully gain new ones.
 

There is no "if" about it. Straight men are the majority of gamers and always have been. They probably always will be.

This sounds like a broad assumption rather than anything coming from research. I'm sure straight men are one of the larger gaming demographics, but as I said before, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy if games are designed for straight men to the exclusion of other audiences. Am I more likely to buy a game if I know there is a positive portrayal of LGBT characters in it? Yes. It's not the only factor, but everything else even, I would buy a game with that over a game that didn't have it.

 

You don't seem to recognize how dangerous a topic sexual orientation can be for a product. Especially if BioWare were to do a terrible job, there would be a severe backlash. It's why most developers don't have same sex romances at all. Name one other game that puts in the amount of time and effort BioWare does for same sex romances.

But as I pointed out, Bioware had already included several same sex romances in previous games to ME. And none of them bombed because of them, so why would they now be afraid to include it?

Following my point, I don't play many non-Bioware games, or at least ones that include romance mechanics, because they don't have same sex romance options. I don't play many games, so the little time I spend on them I'm going to spend on a company that has same sex options if it makes sense.
 

There's a difference between sexual orientation and fictional aliens. One is real. The other is not. If you are not gay, bi, pansexual, etc., it may be difficult for you to write a story about an orientation you do not identify with. Would you really be okay if an all white, straight male team haphazardly wrote romances for all orientations based on what they "think" being gay or bi means? We've already seen BioWare get attacked harshly for how sexuality was handled in DAII.

 
This veers into off topic with the composition of the writing team, so I won't venture into that. But I will say that professional writers should be able to write from a perspective that is not their own. This is a game about being in space in the future, it's not firmly based in reality. But the writers are expected to still write relateable characters with interesting stories. And while I would like more diversity in the backgrounds of writers, it's not a guarantee of the writing content one way or the other. I really liked Kaidan's same sex romance in ME3 despite it being shorter than the female version, but didn't care for the Dorian romance in DAI, which was written by a gay man.
 

DAO had straight and bisexual companions. DAO did not have an actual gay or lesbian companion. Leliana and Zevran would swing either way and did not prefer one sex over the other.

And? I'm not sure why that matters. DAO spent their "romance budget" on four characters, two who can have same sex romances. ME2 spent its "romance budget" on six characters, none of whom have same sex romances. That indicates that the DA team is more interested in their LGBT consumers than the ME team (at that time).

[Midnight Bliss]

I completely disagree with this.  You can't arbitrarily dismiss Kaidan because you don't like how he was implemented.  He was a bisexual character.  Period.

There's nothing arbitrary about it because he's not bisexual. I don't subscribe to this new growing trend where characters suddenly have a different sexual preference halfway through a series with no context or explanation for it, or these male "bisexual" characters who are only bisexual in a vacuum, with the part in the vacuum always mysteriously being all the boyboy content.

Kaidan takes this a step further because he doesn't even have boyboy romance content and instead, just gets a poorly made in house mod version of his real romance story arc, which is heterosexual.

[Jedi Comedian]

I really liked Kaidan's same sex romance in ME3 despite it being shorter than the female version, but didn't care for the Dorian romance in DAI, which was written by a gay man.

Same here.

[Robert Cousland]

Shame we cant have a relationship involving three people, that would be a lot of fun.

[Jedi Comedian]

There's nothing arbitrary about it because he's not bisexual. I don't subscribe to this new growing trend where characters suddenly have a different sexual preference halfway through a series with no context or explanation for it, or these male "bisexual" characters who are only bisexual in a vacuum, with the part in the vacuum always mysteriously being all the boyboy content.
Kaidan takes this a step further because he doesn't even have boyboy romance content and instead, just gets a poorly made in house mod version of his real romance story arc, which is heterosexual.

We got to bed him in the end, that's all that matters to me.

[aoibhealfae]

The thing about Kaidan; he is not an ambiguous pansexual character and he did show multiple interest of his preference for women (and asari). He always show interest in FemShep and even unromanced until the end, he still say that he always has feelings for her. He became instantly captivated by the female dancers in Chora's Den. He talk about Rahna as the girl he had feelings for. After Liara was picked up and if BroShep took interest in her, he will say that he saw Liara first. When no interest was shown, he will say he look at Liara like the way he'd appreciate art. At Noveria, when Quinn talk about sexy Benezia in pinstripe dress, Kaidan inserted that he had seen something like that on fetish sites. If unromanced or Liara was romanced, Kaidan will take an interest in Ashley and vice versa. In ME3, he will say something that he would have been a goner if an Ardat-Yakshi hit on him. Of course, everything is up to interpretation but his specific line that mention his preference for BroShep is at the Apollo's Cafe and nothing prior to that. 

 

If anything, Conrad Verner should have been a potential LI since he didn't hide the fact that he is openly admiring Shepard regardless of their gender. Even James and Garrus should have been make a potential new LI for BroShep from the start since they're both available majority of the game with more interactions than Kaidan.

 

In fact, the only one who had his bisexuality taken from him was BroShep himself, not Kaidan. The real issue here is that Bioware was more afraid of the backlash against BroShep being gay. He was the face of their franchise after all, and their entire marketing was created to appeal the 18-35 male demographic. 

[Prince Enigmatic]

Of course, everything is up to interpretation but his specific line that mention his preference for BroShep is at the Apollo's Cafe and nothing prior to that. 

 

 

 

Arugably his first line that indicates his liking, not preference, for BroShep, is Kaidan asking him if he is flirting with him after BroShep's first visit to Kaidan at Huerta (after Kaidan awakes). Kaidan makes a line about how his L2 implant has gotten better with age, and BroShep can say maybe its Kaidan, triggering that line. Also, depending on at what time in the game you lock-in Kaidan's romance at Apollo's, you can visit Kaidan in the Crew Quarters after the mission to rescue Jacob and the Cerberus scientists on Gellix.

BroShep asks Kaidan if he is flirting with him this time, and Kaidan says clearly he isn't very good at it, so he needs practice with him.

 

So there are actually two times before the meeting at Apollo's Cafe where Kaidan can mention his attraction to BroShep, not his preference because preference indicates he is solely interested in BroShep and men, which is not the case as you have previously mentioned before with Kaidan's comments about his attraction to women and asari also. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Jade Empire was the first BioWare game to show kissing. KotOR 1, two years before it, didn't even show a kiss.

 

My argument is there was no precedent for what BioWare was doing at all. Be happy that they actually care and are trying to cater to as many sexual orientations as they can. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither is adding a complex and voluminous list of different romances targeted at different demographics.

 

The majority of gamers in the industry are heterosexual males. No other studio bothers catering to other demographics when it comes to romance. The fact BioWare is doing it at all is a major step in the right direction and a huge achievement. They've also have consistently gotten better and continue to provide more as they genuinely want to please as many people as possible.

 

I was just clarifying it made sense why ME1 and ME2 didn't have a lot of options. Instead of criticizing BioWare that they "don't care about gay men," perhaps they actually do and it just takes time for them to really do this kind of content justice. I'm not telling you to "be happy with what you get." What I am saying is it is getting better and there was a reason getting this kind of content into BioWare games took so long to start.

I have never said Bioware doesn't care about gay men, quote me where I said that. Seriously, they have lesbian relationship but not gay relationship, specifically with a all female blue pansexual aliens. There is also Kelly and some other random Asari romances. They can't write gay romances, but then they perfectly ok with writing a bunch of lesbian romances. There aren't enough options argument doesn't hold candle as well with 3 options the protagonist each has in ME2, then you also don't have any explanation for why the scenes were cut short for ME3 between the two Kaidan. ME team doesn't care about gay romance is not even the same as saying that ME team hates gays or anything. It could even just mean what you said that they are afraid of controversy and just decide to cater to straight guys instead like with the lesbian options and straight relationships. I also talked about them having to do it due to the fans and maybe even the higher up. It didn't seem like a genuine effort from them based on how the gay romance was implemented where Kaidan's scenes were cut in many parts.

[aoibhealfae]

Arugably his first line that indicates his liking, not preference, for BroShep, is Kaidan asking him if he is flirting with him after BroShep's first visit to Kaidan at Huerta (after Kaidan awakes). Kaidan makes a line about how his L2 implant has gotten better with age, and BroShep can say maybe its Kaidan, triggering that line. Also, depending on at what time in the game you lock-in Kaidan's romance at Apollo's, you can visit Kaidan in the Crew Quarters after the mission to rescue Jacob and the Cerberus scientists on Gellix.

BroShep asks Kaidan if he is flirting with him this time, and Kaidan says clearly he isn't very good at it, so he needs practice with him.

 

So there are actually two times before the meeting at Apollo's Cafe where Kaidan can mention his attraction to BroShep, not his preference because preference indicates he is solely interested in BroShep and men, which is not the case as you have previously mentioned before with Kaidan's comments about his attraction to women and asari also. 

 

If you play as a female Shepard who is faithful or unfaithful without any locked-romance or a female Shepard who is unromanced but give him the whiskey, Kaidan will flirt the exact same to them as with BroShep.

 

Only these are reserved only for BroShep;

Kaidan: It's just--you plan a career, you focus, then suddenly the world's ending and it's too late to... find someone.

Shepard: Someone?

Kaidan: Yeah, "someone." Someone strong and confident. Someone I admire, respect, enjoy being with. Someone handsome...

Kaidan: Tall order, I know. But I don't really have to look far. Shepard.

Kaidan: That's what I want. What do you want?

 

compared to FemShep ME1-romanced

Kaidan: The war isn't the only thing keeping me up at night... I wonder about us.

Shepard: Us?

Kaidan: I love you, Shepard. I always have.

Kaidan: I want to understand what this is between us... and make it real.

Kaidan: That's what I want. What do you want?

 

and FemShep new romance

Kaidan: The war isn't the only thing keeping me up at night... I wonder about us.

Shepard: Us?

Kaidan: I... I have feelings for you, Shepard. And I want more.

Kaidan: I want to understand what this is between us... and make it real.

Kaidan: That's what I want. What do you want?

 

The entire romance itself was written in a way that allow Sbarge to voice Kaidan to refer to both FemShep and BroShep as the same time. If you notice it right, ME3's Kaidan stop casually referring FemShep as a woman and even in romance, he will use third person to refer to her ("The person I loved" "its not everyday you have an armed standoff with someone you love." ) because they know it would fit in with a modded situation. His entire transcript was quite sanitized and gender-neutral when compared to his romance transcript in ME1.

 

I wouldn't say BroShep/Kaidan was heavily cut, since everything is the same with some minor dialogue changes and position change. But much of FemShep/Kaidan-romance content was in ME1. In ME3, they were just two lovers who gave up keeping their relationship a secret and merely reaffirming their commitment together. In this case, its understandable why the ME3 romance itself felt brief.

The only scene that BroShep aren't privy to was when FemShep and Kaidan declare their love for each other before they kiss and precede to either sex scene or a cuddling scene. I can understand the general disgruntlement especially since it is by far the most well-animated intimate scene in the game but Kaidan was holding a woman who is shorter, smaller and lighter than him. There's no way around this without making BroShep look ridiculous. 

[Midnight Bliss]

If BioWare didn't care about gay men, there wouldn't be any gay romances at all. End of story. They don't have to invest resources into romances that they don't care about. They have a limited budget and they could prioritize it in other places if they didn't care. It's really that simple.

Of course Bioware doesn't care about gay men, if they did there would have been a gay romance that was actually made for gay men by now. Nevermind the fact their priorities are money, appealing to everyone, and making everything as non offensive as possible all the time so it's going to be impossible for a real gay male romance because a realistic, honest raw and graphic portrayal of two men in love, in a relationship is going to be offensive to some uptight twit or religious goon somewhere no matter how well written or how likable the characters are, and it's going to cause controversy for the game, which might make it not sell quite as well and therefore disallows it's existence.

 

And if anyone has any doubts about my assertion their concern for gay men is dubious at best here,

-

•Sky- Barely any content, censorship kiss scene. = censored downgrade of the heterosexual romance, no thanks.

 

•Zevran- Dirty bisexual stereotype who admits he greatly prefers women and basically trades his ass and penis sexually with dudes in order to assassinate them.

 

•Anders- Previously heterosexual character who magically started liking men for "representation" and whose bisexuality is dependent on playing a male Hawke so Femhawkes won't have to feel disgusted their mage boyfriend takes it from behind.

 

•Fenris- Magical bisexual. (Probably the only vaguely believable person on this list since I don't think he mentions being interested in either sex independent of Hawke)

 

•Kaidan- Heterosexual man with an in house fan mod style homosexual romance that is completely out of place for his character.

 

•Steve- Poorly implemented romance that involves way too many "gay" dialogue checks, overly dark lighting to try and mask the fact it's two men being intimate and less content than it's heterosexual counterparts.

 

•Iron Bull- Arguably heterosexual since Adoribull was added for inclusion and felt borderline out of character, and he comes off entirely heterosexual otherwise.

 

•Dorian- The ultimate gay male stereotype and queer man cliché who was marketed toward women who want a gay BFF | women who want a "gay boyfriend/husband' | enlightened "progressive" men who think sex acts with males makes them seem tolerant and show they aren't bigots | yaoi hounds | easy to placate gay people/gay rights organizations | - complete with the obligatory dad who hates gays and coming out story, thinking two men can only have sex and not love and acting shocked when told otherwise, being sassy, sarcastic and loving fashion, constantly complimenting women and showering them with adulation, and the ever predictable we have to break up/separate story finale done as seen in 85% of gay male romance stories since antiquity.

 

The thing about Kaidan; he is not an ambiguous pansexual character and he did show multiple interest of his preference for women (and asari). He always show interest in FemShep and even unromanced until the end, he still say that he always has feelings for her. He became instantly captivated by the female dancers in Chora's Den. He talk about Rahna as the girl he had feelings for. After Liara was picked up and if BroShep took interest in her, he will say that he saw Liara first. When no interest was shown, he will say he look at Liara like the way he'd appreciate art. At Noveria, when Quinn talk about sexy Benezia in pinstripe dress, Kaidan inserted that he had seen something like that on fetish sites. If unromanced or Liara was romanced, Kaidan will take an interest in Ashley and vice versa. In ME3, he will say something that he would have been a goner if an Ardat-Yakshi hit on him. Of course, everything is up to interpretation but his specific line that mention his preference for BroShep is at the Apollo's Cafe and nothing prior to that.

This.

 

Add Kaidan saying EDI's body looked really "good" in ME3 too.

 

Arugably his first line that indicates his liking, not preference, for BroShep, is Kaidan asking him if he is flirting with him after BroShep's first visit to Kaidan at Huerta (after Kaidan awakes). Kaidan makes a line about how his L2 implant has gotten better with age, and BroShep can say maybe its Kaidan, triggering that line. Also, depending on at what time in the game you lock-in Kaidan's romance at Apollo's, you can visit Kaidan in the Crew Quarters after the mission to rescue Jacob and the Cerberus scientists on Gellix.

BroShep asks Kaidan if he is flirting with him this time, and Kaidan says clearly he isn't very good at it, so he needs practice with him.

 

So there are actually two times before the meeting at Apollo's Cafe where Kaidan can mention his attraction to BroShep, not his preference because preference indicates he is solely interested in BroShep and men, which is not the case as you have previously mentioned before with Kaidan's comments about his attraction to women and asari also. 

It's moot though because all that is still within the Bro Shep vacuum, which is effectively overruled by the fact everything outside that story arc clearly indicates he's heterosexual.