1472 réponses à ce sujet

[Midnight Bliss]

The entire romance itself was written in a way that allow Sbarge to voice Kaidan to refer to both FemShep and BroShep as the same time. If you notice it right, ME3's Kaidan stop casually referring FemShep as a woman and even in romance, he will use third person to refer to her ("The person I loved" "its not everyday you have an armed standoff with someone you love." ) because they know it would fit in with a modded situation. His entire transcript was quite sanitized and gender-neutral when compared to his romance transcript in ME1.

 

I wouldn't say BroShep/Kaidan was heavily cut, since everything is the same with some minor dialogue changes and position change. But much of FemShep/Kaidan-romance content was in ME1. In ME3, they were just two lovers who gave up keeping their relationship a secret and merely reaffirming their commitment together. In this case, its understandable why the ME3 romance itself felt brief.

I never noticed the gender ambiguous in ME3. I think after seeing how hard Kaidan and Shep have to fight to be together and how deeply in love they are in ME3 it's like their relationship transcends "I love you more than any woman/man", and it's like no, I love you more than any person, any friend, any past love, any infatuation or attraction. It's funny for me because that dialogue quirk would have cast a negative shadow on most romances, but for FemShepxKaidan it just felt like another manifestation of their relationship and completely normal.

 

It just reaffirms for me how Fem Shep and Kaidan really are made for each other.

[Panda]

I'm not claiming anything is perfect. Far from it. Although, I think it's a little unfair to have all these expectations of BioWare when other video games, and the entertainment industry in general, doesn't even bother touching this subject.

 

That being said, BioWare is trying and they are genuinely getting better. My point is to just be conscientious that what they are pulling off isn't easy and there is no precedent for it in video games. As I said, there are a multitude of reasons for why incorporating more sexual orientations has been slow (money constraints, time constraints, business practicality of who the majority of the market is, sexuality of the writers, avoiding controversy and scandals, etc.).

 

A lot of planning has to go into all these characters and what sexual orientations they prefer. It's akin to walking on eggshells and the last thing BioWare wants to do is muck it all up and cause a nightmare far worse than the aftermath of ME3's ending. Just simply saying "they should have done all sexual orientations from the start" is unrealistic and completely disregards how development and business works.

 

I'd also argue Anders was technically the first example of a gay companion in DAII. Yes, he could also be straight, but that was due to BioWare trying to cater to straight, gay, and lesbian gamers all at once with the least amount of effort.

 

Well Bioware is not only gaming company that does m/m and f/f romances. Bethesda pretty much goes with player-sexual romances these days- I know that many hate the word here, but I think it's best one to describe what they have. Every romanceable character is available for you in both Skyrim and Fallout 4 regardless your gender. Not best approach for presentation probably, but pretty fair for everyone and nobody is left out without any romance options. Fallout 4 itself has 4 male characters gay protagonist can romance so for those wanting to options and not caring about LI's having different sexualities- this is quite appealing option for sure.

 

Volition did same with Sains Row 4, every romanceable character was into player no matter gender. So I guess in general m/m and f/f romances are becoming more normal in the games so I don't know if BW can be anymore hold in high pedestal with LGBT+ content- they are one of best game companies with it, but surely not only one's who have romances for players who are interested in gay romances.

[Battlebloodmage]

Well Bioware is not only gaming company that does m/m and f/f romances. Bethesda pretty much goes with player-sexual romances these days- I know that many hate the word here, but I think it's best one to describe what they have. Every romanceable character is available for you in both Skyrim and Fallout 4 regardless your gender. Not best approach for presentation probably, but pretty fair for everyone and nobody is left out without any romance options. Fallout 4 itself has 4 male characters gay protagonist can romance so for those wanting to options and not caring about LI's having different sexualities- this is quite appealing option for sure.

 

Volition did same with Sains Row 4, every romanceable character was into player no matter gender. So I guess in general m/m and f/f romances are becoming more normal in the games so I don't know if BW can be anymore hold in high pedestal with LGBT+ content- they are one of best game companies with it, but surely not only one's who have romances for players who are interested in gay romances.

Recently Fire Emblem, a Japanese company finally added gay romance as well. It may not be much with just one option but consider it's a Japanese company, it is really a big deal. Fallout 4 while playersexual also has certain characters express interest in certain direction, Hancock is definitely bisexual, he will have both guys and girls come up and tell them if they come for "another" visit, MacCready hits on both Piper and Cait while was previously married, Piper has a crush on Magnolia. Fallout 2 has gay marriage all the way back in the 2D era. 

 

I do see Bioware as one of the pioneers who open up the door for gay relationship. I'm grateful to them for that. Maybe I just have higher expectations when it comes to them. 

[Jalepeno Fire]

Of course Bioware doesn't care about gay men, if they did there would have been a gay romance that was actually made for gay men by now. Nevermind the fact their priorities are money, appealing to everyone, and making everything as non offensive as possible all the time so it's going to be impossible for a real gay male romance because a realistic, honest raw and graphic portrayal of two men in love, in a relationship is going to be offensive to some uptight twit or religious goon somewhere no matter how well written or how likable the characters are, and it's going to cause controversy for the game, which might make it not sell quite as well and therefore disallows it's existence.

 

And if anyone has any doubts about my assertion their concern for gay men is dubious at best here,

-

•Sky- Barely any content, censorship kiss scene. = censored downgrade of the heterosexual romance, no thanks.

 

•Zevran- Dirty bisexual stereotype who admits he greatly prefers women and basically trades his ass and penis sexually with dudes in order to assassinate them.

 

•Anders- Previously heterosexual character who magically started liking men for "representation" and whose bisexuality is dependent on playing a male Hawke so Femhawkes won't have to feel disgusted their mage boyfriend takes it from behind.

 

•Fenris- Magical bisexual. (Probably the only vaguely believable person on this list since I don't think he mentions being interested in either sex independent of Hawke)

 

•Kaidan- Heterosexual man with an in house fan mod style homosexual romance that is completely out of place for his character.

 

•Steve- Poorly implemented romance that involves way too many "gay" dialogue checks, overly dark lighting to try and mask the fact it's two men being intimate and less content than it's heterosexual counterparts.

 

•Iron Bull- Arguably heterosexual since Adoribull was added for inclusion and felt borderline out of character, and he comes off entirely heterosexual otherwise.

 

•Dorian- The ultimate gay male stereotype and queer man cliché who was marketed toward women who want a gay BFF | women who want a "gay boyfriend/husband' | enlightened "progressive" men who think sex acts with males makes them seem tolerant and show they aren't bigots | yaoi hounds | easy to placate gay people/gay rights organizations | - complete with the obligatory dad who hates gays and coming out story, thinking two men can only have sex and not love and acting shocked when told otherwise, being sassy, sarcastic and loving fashion, constantly complimenting women and showering them with adulation, and the ever predictable we have to break up/separate story finale done as seen in 85% of gay male romance stories since antiquity.

 

This.

 

Add Kaidan saying EDI's body looked really "good" in ME3 too.

 

It's moot though because all that is still within the Bro Shep vacuum, which is effectively overruled by the fact everything outside that story arc clearly indicates he's heterosexual.

You know, your posts really seem to indicate you don't exactly understand bisexuality. It's not a straight down the middle equal attraction of both sexes. So Kaidan is more sexually attracted to women, so what? How does that take away his love of sausage? 

[Prince Enigmatic]

 

The only scene that BroShep aren't privy to was when FemShep and Kaidan declare their love for each other before they kiss and precede to either sex scene or a cuddling scene. I can understand the general disgruntlement especially since it is by far the most well-animated intimate scene in the game but Kaidan was holding a woman who is shorter, smaller and lighter than him. There's no way around this without making BroShep look ridiculous. 

 

 

This never bothered me, because yes BroShep would have looked ridiculous. And I don't think BioWare needed to have to animate or create a different scene that features their declaration of love when the one with Kaidan and BroShep before Cerberus HQ is fine anyway.

 

And with the extended cut, BroShep and Kaidan get to declare their love during the Normandy evac (and I'm pretty sure all romances get similar sorts of scenes) so another reason I was never personally disgruntled by this.

[Prince Enigmatic]

 

 

•Kaidan- Heterosexual man with an in house fan mod style homosexual romance that is completely out of place for his character.

 

 

I would argue that it's not. For one, there have been in depth looks at BroShep and Kaidan scenes in ME1 and ME2 that many have interpreted as something more than friendship. I'm not saying that this is canon or an indication of BioWare trying to hint, but for many this validates that Kaidan taking an interest in a BroShep isn't out of the loop. 

 

And I don't know if it is a mod or not, I've seen PCs having modded ME1 and ME2 so that BroShep and Kaidan can have a romance in those games, but in ME3 BioWare allowed BroShep's to pursue a romance with Kaidan, and your comment about the lighting for the love scene between Shepard and Cortez doesn't apply to the scene for BroShep and Kaidan in my opinion so it doesn't strike me as a fan mod style romance. That would indicate that only BroShep and Kaidan's romance were modded and therefore not canon or an actual romance, since Kaidan and FemShep are the only valid romance.

 

Also, I have a friend who for years dated only women, and most assumed he was straight. Then, he met a guy who he really liked, and he's been together with him for a while now. I'm not saying this is true for every supposed heterosexual man out there, but in the case of my friend, and in my opinion Kaidan, you can be attracted to one sex then find that you can also be attracted to another and it shouldn't be viewed as out of character.

[Panda]

Recently Fire Emblem, a Japanese company finally added gay romance as well. It may not be much with just one option but consider it's a Japanese company, it is really a big deal. Fallout 4 while playersexual also has certain characters express interest in certain direction, Hancock is definitely bisexual, he will have both guys and girls come up and tell them if they come for "another" visit, MacCready hits on both Piper and Cait while was previously married, Piper has a crush on Magnolia. Fallout 2 has gay marriage all the way back in the 2D era. 

 

I do see Bioware as one of the pioneers who open up the door for gay relationship. I'm grateful to them for that. Maybe I just have higher expectations when it comes to them. 

 

Japanese games seem to be quite divided with LGBT+ stuff, in other hand you have tons of erotic "yaoi/yuri" games, but then only hetero relationships in other games. It's nice that they have been mixing them up a little, LGBT+ content shouldn't be locked in erotic deparment.

 

I didn't really know about that stuff in terms of Fallout, quite interesting. I'd still say the game is bit gender/sexual orientation-blind, but it's nice that there is nods like that at least. And I have also noticed that NPCs seem to flirt with you even if you are same gender as them which was quite new for me in the game. Was quite surprised when some Goodneighbour guards started flirting with my male character You don't really see that in Bioware's games, just random guys cat-calling your fem!Shep and random Asaris stroking face of your Shepard (and is it just me or are they more into stroking male Shepards face??).

 

Bioware are quite awesome usually with LGBT+ content and pioneers in it also, but I don't think having gay romance option is anymore mindblowing and something that Bioware should get points for. It's more of normalty and what is expected from not only them, but from similar games.

[Battlebloodmage]

Japanese games seem to be quite divided with LGBT+ stuff, in other hand you have tons of erotic "yaoi/yuri" games, but then only hetero relationships in other games. It's nice that they have been mixing them up a little, LGBT+ content shouldn't be locked in erotic deparment.

 

I didn't really know about that stuff in terms of Fallout, quite interesting. I'd still say the game is bit gender/sexual orientation-blind, but it's nice that there is nods like that at least. And I have also noticed that NPCs seem to flirt with you even if you are same gender as them which was quite new for me in the game. Was quite surprised when some Goodneighbour guards started flirting with my male character You don't really see that in Bioware's games, just random guys cat-calling your fem!Shep and random Asaris stroking face of your Shepard (and is it just me or are they more into stroking male Shepards face??).

 

Bioware are quite awesome usually with LGBT+ content and pioneers in it also, but I don't think having gay romance option is anymore mindblowing and something that Bioware should get points for. It's more of normalty and what is expected from not only them, but from similar games.

Yaoi is made by females and consumed by females. the Japanese at large, cultural wise, doesn't view homosexual males in positive light. In most of the mainstream stuffs, whenever someone is found out to be gay, the characters often act in disgust, most often characters are being portrayed as creeps, weirdos, or rapists like the Angel guy in One Punch Man. 

 

The game actually has quite a few gay characters and couples. In the beginning of Fallout before the bomb fell, you can see a lesbian couples embracing each other while the bomb is about to drop, Mel during Big Dig will talk about how good looking you are, and talk to Bobbi during a chat that you're not bad in the eyes only if you're playing as a male character. One of the scientists during the Vault 81 talked about how a female outsider tricked her out of her caps and run off with all of her money saying that she would be back but she never did. That is why she's so bitter toward outsider. Even in previous Fallout games, we have characters like Arcade and Veronica, gay marriage, a lesbian couple who adopt a ghoul guy. While relationship wise, the characters are playersexual (which is more about player agency and freedom more than anything), Beth also doesn't get enough credit for include a bunch of gay NPCs in their games.

 

I agree with the last point. I hope we get to the point where having gay characters and gay romance is not a big deal. There are still a lot of misconceptions when gay contents are still considered to be adult content, I see people keep using these arguments that games will get higher rating like T will become M and things like that if they include gay relationship into anything. One of the most common argument I see with games like Harvest Moon.

[Panda]

Yaoi is made by females and consumed by females. the Japanese at large, cultural wise, doesn't view homosexual males in positive light. In most of the mainstream stuffs, whenever someone is found out to be gay, the characters often act in disgust, most often characters are being portrayed as creeps, weirdos, or rapists like the Angel guy in One Punch Man. 

 

The game actually has quite a few gay characters and couples. In the beginning of Fallout before the bomb fell, you can see a lesbian couples embracing each other while the bomb is about to drop, Mel during Big Dig will talk about how good looking you are, and talk to Bobbi during a chat that you're not bad in the eyes only if you're playing as a male character. One of the scientists during the Vault 81 talked about how a female outsider tricked her out of her caps and run off with all of her money saying that she would be back but she never did. That is why she's so bitter toward outsider. Even in previous Fallout games, we have characters like Arcade and Veronica, gay marriage, a lesbian couple who adopt a ghoul guy. While relationship wise, the characters are playersexual (which is more about player agency and freedom more than anything), Beth also doesn't get enough credit for include a bunch of gay NPCs in their games.

 

I agree with the last point. I hope we get to the point where having gay characters and gay romance is not a big deal. There are still a lot of misconceptions when gay contents are still considered to be adult content, I see people keep using these arguments that games will get higher rating like T will become M and things like that if they include gay relationship into anything. One of the most common argument I see with games like Harvest Moon.

 

Outside of yaoi, gay characters tend to be "okama" 's when it comes to anime and games. I remember seeing somewhere that Japanese people tend to associate all gay people with gay performers (often described as okamas) in tv and thus have one sided image of gay people, I think it was interview during gay pride in Japan or sth like that so you get pretty stereotypical gay characters in animes, often used as comic relieves. It's usually better with lesbian/bisexual female characters thought, Psycho Pass and Shingeki no Kyojin for example have both lesbian couple who don't seem to be there either for comic relief nor fantasy purposes. Can't really remember seeing gay couple non shonen-ai/yaoi anime though.

 

The idea of restricting LGBT+ behind adult and mature stuff is bit old also. Marvel had policy like that as well- after not including any LGBT+ content in decades (I think it was actually banned from comics in US long time). I think it promotes the idea that gay relationships are something to unnatural and more sexual in nature than hetero one's and that's not good idea to promote. It would be good if more children stuff included LGBT+ as well- sadly the parents are in way of that even if children aren't.

 

But huh enough of that. Nowdays in games at least it really seems like LGBT+ characters are getting better and there is more LI's available for LGBT+ romances as well. And since Bioware is such progressive company.. I think they are out of excuses by now- Ryder is heterosexual won't work anymore. I'm expecting ME:A to go into DAI's direction- cast of LI's that have different sexualities and enough options for everyone- this is probably ideal way to do LI's.

[daveliam]

Of course Bioware doesn't care about gay men, if they did there would have been a gay romance that was actually made for gay men by now. Nevermind the fact their priorities are money, appealing to everyone, and making everything as non offensive as possible all the time so it's going to be impossible for a real gay male romance because a realistic, honest raw and graphic portrayal of two men in love, in a relationship is going to be offensive to some uptight twit or religious goon somewhere no matter how well written or how likable the characters are, and it's going to cause controversy for the game, which might make it not sell quite as well and therefore disallows it's existence.

 

And if anyone has any doubts about my assertion their concern for gay men is dubious at best here,

-

•Sky- Barely any content, censorship kiss scene. = censored downgrade of the heterosexual romance, no thanks.

 

•Zevran- Dirty bisexual stereotype who admits he greatly prefers women and basically trades his ass and penis sexually with dudes in order to assassinate them.

 

•Anders- Previously heterosexual character who magically started liking men for "representation" and whose bisexuality is dependent on playing a male Hawke so Femhawkes won't have to feel disgusted their mage boyfriend takes it from behind.

 

•Fenris- Magical bisexual. (Probably the only vaguely believable person on this list since I don't think he mentions being interested in either sex independent of Hawke)

 

•Kaidan- Heterosexual man with an in house fan mod style homosexual romance that is completely out of place for his character.

 

•Steve- Poorly implemented romance that involves way too many "gay" dialogue checks, overly dark lighting to try and mask the fact it's two men being intimate and less content than it's heterosexual counterparts.

 

•Iron Bull- Arguably heterosexual since Adoribull was added for inclusion and felt borderline out of character, and he comes off entirely heterosexual otherwise.

 

•Dorian- The ultimate gay male stereotype and queer man cliché who was marketed toward women who want a gay BFF | women who want a "gay boyfriend/husband' | enlightened "progressive" men who think sex acts with males makes them seem tolerant and show they aren't bigots | yaoi hounds | easy to placate gay people/gay rights organizations | - complete with the obligatory dad who hates gays and coming out story, thinking two men can only have sex and not love and acting shocked when told otherwise, being sassy, sarcastic and loving fashion, constantly complimenting women and showering them with adulation, and the ever predictable we have to break up/separate story finale done as seen in 85% of gay male romance stories since antiquity.

 

This.

 

Add Kaidan saying EDI's body looked really "good" in ME3 too.

 

It's moot though because all that is still within the Bro Shep vacuum, which is effectively overruled by the fact everything outside that story arc clearly indicates he's heterosexual.

 

Ugh.  Really?  A "no true Scotsman" approach? 

 

Am I happy with all of the m/m options that we've had?  Nope.  Do I think that many of them were written with a heterosexual woman in mind and then adapted to offer another gay option?  Yep.  Does any of this mean that they "don't count" or that "Bioware doesn't care about gay men"?  Nope.

 

When you take such an emotional, hyperbolic, and (frankly) boldly untrue stance, you don't do much to back up your point.  I not only have doubts about your assertion, I disagree with your statement outright for all the reasons that I've already stated.  Are you seriously going to insinuate that my "concerns for gay men are dubious at best"?

 

You know, your posts really seem to indicate you don't exactly understand bisexuality. It's not a straight down the middle equal attraction of both sexes. So Kaidan is more sexually attracted to women, so what? How does that take away his love of sausage? 

 

Exactly.  While I'm totally sick of the "bisexual guy who really just prefers women and is really only bisexual in order to offer another option for gay guys, it doesn't mean that they don't count". 

 

In other words:  Was his bisexuality implemented well?  Of course not.  Does that mean that it's "mod" and that his bisexuality isn't canon?  Of course not.

[Bowlcuts]

Ah, now I understand why the romance sub-forum was removed.

[Battlebloodmage]

Ah, now I understand why the romance sub-forum was removed.

I know right? Miranda people were getting way too extreme. Maybe you should post this in the blonde thread where people ogle blonde women and posting a bunch of pictures there as well instead of a thread with an actual discussion going on currently. 

[Steelcan]

I know right? Miranda people were getting way too extreme. Maybe you should post this in the blonde thread where people ogle blonde women and posting a bunch of pictures there as well instead of a thread with an actual discussion going on currently. 

oi, heard you were talkin' smack

[Battlebloodmage]

oi, heard you were talkin' smack

Would you rather we have a tea party and talk about ponies instead? I like Twilight Sparkle. 

[Steelcan]

Would you rather we have a tea party and talk about ponies instead? I like Twilight Sparkle. 

A. it wasn't just us Miranda people, the Talimancers were a blight upon society as a whole long before, and Priestly decided to just ban the whole thing than do his job

 

B. got a problem with posting pictures of blonde women in a thread about blonde hair?  Seems rather condescending to me

[Lady Artifice]

The blonde thread isn't just about women.

[Grieving Natashina]

The blonde thread isn't just about women.

Nor is it just about LIs either. That ended up coming up, because people enjoy talking about it. I'd say that the bulk of the conversation was more about the silliness of the hooplah surrounding the Blonde Shep; refuting old findings that stated that blondes and red heads were going extinct.; that blonde is not usually rendered very well in the ME series, and that even DA:I's blondes were lacking in depth of color. There's pics sure, but the conversation is fun and civil.

As far as the old Romance sub-forum, I heard it took both the ME and DA fans to get that closed. I've seen way too many debates from both fanbases to say it was any one group's fault.

Back to the topic: I wouldn't find a female Krogan to romance. Too bad they are pretty rare, and if we see more than one in ME:A (or beyond,) I'd be pleasantly surprised.

[Battlebloodmage]

A. it wasn't just us Miranda people, the Talimancers were a blight upon society as a whole long before, and Priestly decided to just ban the whole thing than do his job

 

B. got a problem with posting pictures of blonde women in a thread about blonde hair?  Seems rather condescending to me

It wasn't targeting that thread but the people who likely to make those comments that just target gay threads specifically, the blonde thread just happens to have those things at the moment. I honestly don't care, but I just refer to the kind of hypocrisy these people who make comments that don't make these comment in threads with romance or requests like that on straight ones. It just seems like there's other ulterior motives rather than "sick of romance threads" and things like that. My point that with all these threads about romance and things like that, the gay ones are the one that get these kinds of comments targeted. Maybe they need to learn to ignore threads they don't like. 

[Midnight Bliss]

You know, your posts really seem to indicate you don't exactly understand bisexuality. It's not a straight down the middle equal attraction of both sexes. So Kaidan is more sexually attracted to women, so what? How does that take away his love of sausage? 

Myself and aoibhealfae explained what the problem is and it had nothing to do with some requirement for a 50/50 attraction to both sexes. Your argument isn't incorrect, and would be potentially compelling for characters like Anders and Iron Bull but when it comes to Kaidan there's simply too much evidence of his heterosexuality across an entire series of content, and ultimately this "maybe he likes dick a little" argument just ends up sounding nonsensical and no different than people saying Castiel was in love with Dean Winchester because of Dean keeping his jacket and that "Cass get out of my ass" joke.

 

So far all the "Kaidan might be bi, just a little" arguments keep boiling down to people's gut feeling, fantasy, or the BW inclusive project & player vacuum in ME3. My position unemotional and based on facts, and supported by numerous evidence in his story line. My position makes me sad, because I absolutely love Kaidan and everything about him, and would love a boyboy romance option like him with a story like that.

 

I would argue that it's not. For one, there have been in depth looks at BroShep and Kaidan scenes in ME1 and ME2 that many have interpreted as something more than friendship. I'm not saying that this is canon or an indication of BioWare trying to hint, but for many this validates that Kaidan taking an interest in a BroShep isn't out of the loop. 

 

And I don't know if it is a mod or not, I've seen PCs having modded ME1 and ME2 so that BroShep and Kaidan can have a romance in those games, but in ME3 BioWare allowed BroShep's to pursue a romance with Kaidan, and your comment about the lighting for the love scene between Shepard and Cortez doesn't apply to the scene for BroShep and Kaidan in my opinion so it doesn't strike me as a fan mod style romance. That would indicate that only BroShep and Kaidan's romance were modded and therefore not canon or an actual romance, since Kaidan and FemShep are the only valid romance.

 

Also, I have a friend who for years dated only women, and most assumed he was straight. Then, he met a guy who he really liked, and he's been together with him for a while now. I'm not saying this is true for every supposed heterosexual man out there, but in the case of my friend, and in my opinion Kaidan, you can be attracted to one sex then find that you can also be attracted to another and it shouldn't be viewed as out of character.

I'm curious what these scenes are, if you find them please post links if you can.

 

That's a save tweak, yes.

 

I've heard of that sort of thing, and honestly it might have worked if him being bisexual actually existed outside the player's vacuum somewhere. My argument isn't that a situation like you described can't happen, my argument is that the situation you describe isn't the case with Kaidan's boyboy romance.

 

Ugh.  Really?  A "no true Scotsman" approach? 

 

Am I happy with all of the m/m options that we've had?  Nope.  Do I think that many of them were written with a heterosexual woman in mind and then adapted to offer another gay option?  Yep.  Does any of this mean that they "don't count" or that "Bioware doesn't care about gay men"?  Nope.

 

When you take such an emotional, hyperbolic, and (frankly) boldly untrue stance, you don't do much to back up your point.  I not only have doubts about your assertion, I disagree with your statement outright for all the reasons that I've already stated.  Are you seriously going to insinuate that my "concerns for gay men are dubious at best"?

Bioware writers have repeatedly tried accuse fans of being homophobic for criticism of their gay content, when most of their gay characterization isn't even that good or flattering. So no, I don't think Bioware cares about gay men one bit, because if they did they would make a gay male romance for gay men, not for women and enlightened straight males. The mere of act of standing on a liberal pedestal and screaming about tolerance, and simply allowing gay people to be in the room somewhere doesn't make someone the crusader for homosexuality and inclusiveness BW has tried to paint themselves as in recent years.

 

Also, trying to determine how much those romances do or don't count is subjective, and has nothing to with my point.

 

I'm neither emotional nor hyperbolic, and I've backed up every claim I've made, you disagree, but everything I've said stands on it's own and doesn't get marginalized because you disagree.

 

Oh, and if I thought your concern for gay men is dubious at best I'd have said so flat out, I wouldn't bother to insinuate anything. I don't believe that, which is why I never said it.

[In Exile]

Myself and aoibhealfae explained what the problem is and it had nothing to do with some requirement for a 50/50 attraction to both sexes. Your argument isn't incorrect, and would be potentially compelling for characters like Anders and Iron Bull but when it comes to Kaidan there's simply too much evidence of his heterosexuality across an entire series of content, and ultimately this "maybe he likes dick a little" argument just ends up sounding nonsensical and no different than people saying Castiel was in love with Dean Winchester because of Dean keeping his jacket and that "Cass get out of my ass" joke.

 

So far all the "Kaidan might be bi, just a little" arguments keep boiling down to people's gut feeling, fantasy, or the BW inclusive project & player vacuum in ME3. My position unemotional and based on facts, and supported by numerous evidence in his story line. My position makes me sad, because I absolutely love Kaidan and everything about him, and would love a boyboy romance option like him with a story like that.

 

I don't buy it. I thought Kaiden and MaleShep had plenty of sexual tension. 

[aoibhealfae]

Kaidan isn't really a person who like to beat around the bushes. He's a kind of assertive guy who don't stop himself from voicing his thoughts and if he's interested in you, he will go ahead and chase you. He never was interested in BroShep from the start. You can headcanon Kaidan having a crush since 2183 but he even said it himself, he was too career focused, it was until at the end of the world that he starts to see BroShep as something more than a close friend. Even unromanced, he still sees Shepard as his family. 

 

Sbarge didn't even think about portraying Kaidan as bisexual either. In his ME3 interviews, he was just as surprised with how much gaymers want his character (considering the barrage who prefer him dead in ME1 and how Bioware treat Ashley as the default VS). I am just as happy when they allowed BroShep to romance Kaidan (frankly any amount of love my space husband receive is welcome) but it is a stretch to consider him as a closet gay from the start since he's really not. I think much of his attractiveness over Cortez was the fact that Kaidan's initial unavailability make him an alluring fantasy to have and Cortez's story was a turn off and people don't want the baggage (which I do understand which is why I avoid Thane).

 

Either way, people's preferences are subjective and it is an RPG so you're free to come up with whatever you want to make your narrative work for you personally. I do agree that Bioware can be inconsistent but I am still optimistic even if we're still stuck with Mac "Liara4evry1" Walters.

[daveliam]

Bioware writers have repeatedly tried accuse fans of being homophobic for criticism of their gay content, when most of their gay characterization isn't even that good or flattering. So no, I don't think Bioware cares about gay men one bit, because if they did they would make a gay male romance for gay men, not for women and enlightened straight males. The mere of act of standing on a liberal pedestal and screaming about tolerance, and simply allowing gay people to be in the room somewhere doesn't make someone the crusader for homosexuality and inclusiveness BW has tried to paint themselves as in recent years.

 

Also, trying to determine how much those romances do or don't count is subjective, and has nothing to with my point.

 

I'm neither emotional nor hyperbolic, and I've backed up every claim I've made, you disagree, but everything I've said stands on it's own and doesn't get marginalized because you disagree.

 

Oh, and if I thought your concern for gay men is dubious at best I'd have said so flat out, I wouldn't bother to insinuate anything. I don't believe that, which is why I never said it.

 

If you want to see a developer who 'doesn't care about gay men one bit', look at the hundreds of developers that do not include gay men in their games at all.  But to suggest that one of the very few developers who actually does include us in their games and, beyond that, actually goes out of their way to do panels at major events discussing how important it is to include LGBT characters in their games, "doesn't care about gay men one bit" is flat out ridiculous.  Could they do things better?  Yes and they are the first to admit that.  But they have been on the boards and at panels and on social media asking for feedback on this.  Again, evidence to suggest that your statement is, unequivocally, false.

 

No, whether they "count" or not is not subjective.  If a character is romanceable by a PC of the same sex, they count.  Period.  Again, you might not like the character or the implementation but that doesn't mean that they don't count. 

 

Your points don't stand on their own because they aren't based in fact.  They are based in your opinion of the facts.  That is a huge distinction.  Here are the facts:  Bioware includes gay men in their games, has asked for feedback on how to do this better, and has advocated for the importance of including this content in the industry.  They have included 8 m/m romances in their games in the past:  Sky, Zevran, Anders, Fenris, Kaidan, Steve, Iron Bull, and Dorian.  All 8 of those characters are not mods and count as m/m romances because a male PC can romance those male characters.  Those are the facts that stand alone.

 

When you make the statement:  "And if anyone has any doubts about my assertion, their concern for gay men is dubious at best here", you are, in fact saying, that anyone who disagrees with your statements has dubious concern for gay men themselves.  And I absolutely disagree with your statements, but I certainly do not have dubious concern for gay men. 

[Midnight Bliss]

If you want to see a developer who 'doesn't care about gay men one bit', look at the hundreds of developers that do not include gay men in their games at all.  But to suggest that one of the very few developers who actually does include us in their games and, beyond that, actually goes out of their way to do panels at major events discussing how important it is to include LGBT characters in their games, "doesn't care about gay men one bit" is flat out ridiculous.  Could they do things better?  Yes and they are the first to admit that.  But they have been on the boards and at panels and on social media asking for feedback on this.  Again, evidence to suggest that your statement is, unequivocally, false.

 

No, whether they "count" or not is not subjective.  If a character is romanceable by a PC of the same sex, they count.  Period.  Again, you might not like the character or the implementation but that doesn't mean that they don't count. 

 

Your points don't stand on their own because they aren't based in fact.  They are based in your opinion of the facts.  That is a huge distinction.  Here are the facts:  Bioware includes gay men in their games, has asked for feedback on how to do this better, and has advocated for the importance of including this content in the industry.  They have included 8 m/m romances in their games in the past:  Sky, Zevran, Anders, Fenris, Kaidan, Steve, Iron Bull, and Dorian.  All 8 of those characters are not mods and count as m/m romances because a male PC can romance those male characters.  Those are the facts that stand alone.

 

When you make the statement:  "And if anyone has any doubts about my assertion, their concern for gay men is dubious at best here", you are, in fact saying, that anyone who disagrees with your statements has dubious concern for gay men themselves.  And I absolutely disagree with your statements, but I certainly do not have dubious concern for gay men.

• You love BW? Good for you! Oh, and nice dramatic buzz words at the end trying to invalidate my opinion, too bad you did not succeed.

 

• That means they count to you, not to me. Nice usage of putting "Period." after one of your opinions in an attempt to invalidate the fact I don't agree with you though. It didn't work like any of the other times, but it certainly is wonderfully melodramatic, I will give you that.

 

• It was obvious the bits about the eight characters were my opinions because what else would they be? My opinions stand on their own whether you like it or not because nothing I said was factually incorrect. At worst, my perception of the facts or my characterization of one of the eight was incorrect, which is a topic where I would have gladly welcomed an intelligent discussion with you, but you were too busy being argumentative and trying to prove me wrong for that.

 

• I was saying if anyone doubts my assertion that Bioware's concern for gay men is dubious at best, here's proof. Nothing more. You're just being melodramatic because you want to feel offended and misuse my statement to fuel this fiction of yours that I believe anyone who disagrees with me has dubious concern for gay men themselves. You read too far into my post and I even corrected you by saying I didn't believe that, but here you are still prattling on and trying to be right. Get over yourself.

 

I know the whole starting a fight with anyone with whom you disagree in lieu of an intelligent conversation is the popular thing to do now, but you probably could have saved a lot of time if you had just asked me for a clarification if you honestly believed I was saying your or somebody else's opinions didn't matter, because I would have gladly heard you out and probably have updated my comment to remove the problem bits of any existed, but that would have required you approach me like a person and not allowed for all this ridiculous posturing and grandstanding, so I guess that's where your priorities are.

 

 

Also, fascinating how your post has now completely thematically switched gears since your original claim of "Kaidan is bisexual. Period." got debunked. I wonder if there's a connection?  

[Prince Enigmatic]

Some think Kaidan is bisexual, others do not. Sexuality really shouldn't be a matter of opinion, but there you go.

 

Either way, by stating a romance is modded, not canon or valid or worthy or the like is going to invite people like myself and others to present arguments to that claim, because it's ok for you to think a romance is better than another, thats a matter of opinion, but when someone says a romance is modded and doesn't count because it contradicts or in some way affects a completely separate romance in a completely separate playthrough of a game about player choices and options, it becomes less about a matter of opinion and more a statement that others aren't playing the game properly and that choices they made in their play through aren't the right ones. This is my interpretation here on those comments. I would imagine going to a Garrus or Tali thread and saying something like the romance doesn't count because there was no indication Garrus or Tali liked Shepard in ME1 would invite similar responses that would counter that claim. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Japanese games seem to be quite divided with LGBT

 

Its a hot topic issue in a lot of Asia for a myriad of reasons, I mean they have to sell this product after all and if its only going to appeal to a certain market, it has to warrant expense and time. Like any game, the cost has to warrant the reward. Nothing really strange about it, its just how it is over there. Same process across the entire world, if you want to include something that may raise issues with the product, you have to make damn sure that you have enough of a audience left to recoup costs or else you fall into a money pit and that can sink whole companies.

 

So ultimately that is why it is as it is and I can't fault it, I will not honestly ask people to put their own job at risk to include some certain element, a good example of this? Outside of the erotic gaming industry subset you have mature games that feature censored or clipped erotic scenario like Brothers Conflict a dating simulator aimed at females who have a erm...brother fetish, this is a VERY controversial game that hit mild success but only after a lot of the more questionable aspects were cut in preproduction, I mean this is just a extreme example but that's Japan. I mean I admit to having a penchant for purchasing certain erotic Japanese games, but I am a very minor portion of that industry, I am the importing consumer, they have to make 80 to 90% of their money in their own country, I mean that's why kink has to fit kink ya know?

 

It all comes down to profit projections, its just how it is.