1472 réponses à ce sujet

[Midnight Bliss]

Some think Kaidan is bisexual, others do not. Sexuality really shouldn't be a matter of opinion, but there you go.

 

Either way, by stating a romance is modded, not canon or valid or worthy or the like is going to invite people like myself and others to present arguments to that claim, because it's ok for you to think a romance is better than another, thats a matter of opinion, but when someone says a romance is modded and doesn't count because it contradicts a completely separate romance in a completely separate playthrough of a game about player choices and options, it becomes less about a matter of opinion and more a statement that others aren't playing the game properly and that choices they made in their play through aren't the right ones. This is my interpretation here on those comments. I would imagine going to a Garrus or Tali thread and saying something like the romance doesn't count because there was no indication Garrus or Tali liked Shepard in ME1 would invite similar responses that would counter that claim. 

The problem is the people who said he's bisexual can't seem to come up with a shred of proof to support that statement's validity.

 

I never said that people who do the boyboy Kaidan romance are stupid | bad | wrong | should stop | shouldn't be allowed to talk about it | and so on... So quite frankly I'm not sure where the argument is when I already said that I understood why people wanted to do that romance and got the appeal of it.

 

Kaidan is my favorite BW character and I have to deal with reading annoying comments about him sucking, mischaracterizations about him and lies about his story line all the time, but it only makes me enjoy him while I play ME more and motivates me to snap right back at those Kaidan-haters.

I'd welcome an intelligent discussion about my perspective with a fellow Kaidan lover who was a gay romancer, but instead got some garbage about how I think everyone who disagrees with me has dubious concern for gays and tripe about how I'm wrong and not entitled to speak my mind and disagree with this SJW narrative that BW is some amazing dream come true for gay male romance stories because other people say so.

 

 

[daveliam]

The problem is the people who said he's bisexual can't seem to come up with a shred of proof to support that statement's validity.

 

Here's your proof:

 

Kaidan can be romanced by both men and women in ME3. 

 

That's it.  That's all the evidence you need because that's all the evidence required to demonstrate that he's bisexual.  Anything beyond that is you jumping through mental hoops to try to discredit the romance to support your own narrative that "Bioware doesn't care at all about gay men".

[Prince Enigmatic]

The problem is the people who said he's bisexual can't seem to come up with a shred of proof to support that statement's validity.

 

I never said that people who do the boyboy Kaidan romance are stupid | bad | wrong | should stop | shouldn't be allowed to talk about it | and so on... So quite frankly I'm not sure where the argument is when I already said that I understood why people wanted to do that romance and got the appeal of it.

 

Kaidan is my favorite BW character and I have to deal with reading annoying comments about him sucking, mischaracterizations about him and lies about his story line all the time, but it only makes me enjoy him while I play ME more and motivates me to snap right back at those Kaidan-haters.

I'd welcome an intelligent discussion about my perspective with a fellow Kaidan lover who was a gay romancer, but instead got some garbage about how I think everyone who disagrees with me has dubious concern for gays and tripe about how I'm wrong and not entitled to speak my mind and disagree with this SJW narrative that BW is some amazing dream come true for gay male romance stories because other people say so.

 

I too am a huge fan of Kaidan, he is my favourite male human character (and probably human character in the trilogy). 

 

I understand you are not saying that people who have BroSheps who romance Kaidan are stupid or wrong. I am just confused by the fact that you clearly love Kaidan (woop!) and am more than happy for everyone to get the opportunity to choose to romance him, and the statement about the romance being a mod. It just seemed contradictory. 

[The Boss]

Ugh.  Really?  A "no true Scotsman" approach? 
 
Am I happy with all of the m/m options that we've had?  Nope.  Do I think that many of them were written with a heterosexual woman in mind and then adapted to offer another gay option?  Yep.  Does any of this mean that they "don't count" or that "Bioware doesn't care about gay men"?  Nope.
 
When you take such an emotional, hyperbolic, and (frankly) boldly untrue stance, you don't do much to back up your point.  I not only have doubts about your assertion, I disagree with your statement outright for all the reasons that I've already stated.  Are you seriously going to insinuate that my "concerns for gay men are dubious at best"?
 
 
Exactly.  While I'm totally sick of the "bisexual guy who really just prefers women and is really only bisexual in order to offer another option for gay guys, it doesn't mean that they don't count". 
 
In other words:  Was his bisexuality implemented well?  Of course not.  Does that mean that it's "mod" and that his bisexuality isn't canon?  Of course not.

 
I don't think you understand what the term "no true scotsman" means, considering it doesn't apply here at all.  Especially in regards to Kaidan, a character who isn't gay, has no inklings of being gay or into men, and openly shows his preference for and attraction to women in general, including a comment on a female robot's body being attractive as well as female aliens.  That's not bisexual, that's called heterosexual.  People are bringing up experiences they have with their friends or bisexuals they know, when that isn't the point.  You have to go by what the character themselves is like, and going by what we see of Kaidan, he is someone who is open about what he likes, and he clearly is into women, period.  Kaidan is a pretty straight forward guy, if he liked men he would've straight up said so.  Why would he only mention women if he were into both?  Look at the setting itself, it's in the future and no one seems to have any issues with men being attracted to men, no one minds or takes issue with Steve being into men.  If Kaidan were into men, he'd have no reason to feel like he'd have to "hide it" or keep it under wraps; and he's an open enough guy he'd treat it the same as he does with women and simply mentions he likes them.  The fact is, he likes women, he wants women, he isn't shy of saying what he likes and wants, and what he wants is WOMEN.  He's straight, end of story. 
 
Now how is simply stating the truth and what is seen in the actual story of the game and what the character's personality and actions are like,  "emotional/hyperbolic/untrue"?  And as far as something not counting, the simple fact of the matter is people need to get higher standards and not simply accept what is being laid out before them.  People wouldn't do this with racial stuff, if some series of games had barely any real representation of Black people, and in the game some character says "Oh hey guys, I'm actually 1/12th African", you think people would honestly accept that?  Why are people so willing to do that with gay/bi stuff then in media?   I find a good rule of thumb is, if people wouldn't accept something when applied to other races, it shouldn't be acceptable when applied to gays/bis either.  Imagine the uproar black people would have if there were a romance with a character that for all intents and purposes looked white, and then if you make a black player character you get maybe a scene with the character going "man, I know how it is, my dad is black", and that doesn't even come up any other time in the story.  Could you imagine how ridiculous that would be?  Black people wouldn't accept that crap.  They'd get mad and demand something better.  That wouldn't count as a "Black" character or be considered acceptable, yet I'm seeing these odd situational bisexuals and male characters who conveniently only mention wanting women being considered "gay/bi".  Come on now.  You need higher standards than that and people need to expect more out of Bioware.  Rome wasn't built in a day, but it also wasn't built on complacency as a foundation either.

[Jalepeno Fire]

Myself and aoibhealfae explained what the problem is and it had nothing to do with some requirement for a 50/50 attraction to both sexes. Your argument isn't incorrect, and would be potentially compelling for characters like Anders and Iron Bull but when it comes to Kaidan there's simply too much evidence of his heterosexuality across an entire series of content, and ultimately this "maybe he likes dick a little" argument just ends up sounding nonsensical and no different than people saying Castiel was in love with Dean Winchester because of Dean keeping his jacket and that "Cass get out of my ass" joke.

Yeah, except Dean Winchester is straight and never has sex with a guy (that Destiel stuff is just fan fiction by the same yaoi fangirls who came up with "Wincest") whereas Kaidan gets pounded by Shepard in a canon male romance. He's also romanceable by a female Shepard. Hence "BISEXUAL".

Really though, I'm done with this argument. Good day, sir.

 

[The Boss]

Here's your proof:
 
Kaidan can be romanced by both men and women in ME3. 
 
That's it.  That's all the evidence you need because that's all the evidence required to demonstrate that he's bisexual.  Anything beyond that is you jumping through mental hoops to try to discredit the romance to support your own narrative that "Bioware doesn't care at all about gay men".

That's a really low standard to have for a bisexual/gay character to be honest. "Well the character was hetero all this time, only showed interest in women all this time, but hey, in the third game they slapped on some halfassed male romance that feels incomplete and clearly lesser than the one with a woman, it counts as gay!" Really? It's like the point is flying way above your head. And you're coming into this with a clearly overly emotional mindset as if people are painting Bioware as dastardly villains trying to blackball gays from games, which isn't the case. It's simply based on fact, based on the characters that have appeared in their games so far. They obviously aren't that concerned with gay men, if they're coming up with these characters with ambiguous sexualities, sexualities that aren't even reflected in the actual story of the game and the character's personality, odd checks in place to make sure no straight guy "accidentally" gets hit on by the scary gay man, and blatant stereotypes of gay men. Truly caring about gay men would be designing a cool male character that is no different in design philosophy from a hetero male character, he just happens to be gay, simple as that.

[daveliam]

That's a really low standard to have for a bisexual/gay character to be honest. "Well the character was hetero all this time, only showed interest in women all this time, but hey, in the third game they slapped on some halfassed male romance that feels incomplete and clearly lesser than the one with a woman, it counts as gay!" Really? It's like the point is flying way above your head.

 

No, I think it's flying over your head because it doesn't count as "gay", it counts as "bisexual".  I'm not thrilled about the fact that pretty much all of the bisexual male characters in Bioware games show a preference towards females, but showing a preference towards one gender over another doesn't negate someone's bisexuality.  Again, I don't think it's well implemented, but a male character who can be romanced by both male and female characters is bisexual.  That's the definition of bisexuality:  being attracted to both men and women and, whether you like it or not, Kaidan shows attraction to both male and female characters in ME.  Hence, he's bisexual. 

 

Honestly, it's not terribly complicated, so I'm not sure why people are having a difficult time with this concept.

[The Boss]

whether you like it or not, Kaidan shows attraction to both male and female characters in ME.  Hence, he's bisexual.

So what are these male characters he shows attraction to? Because there's quite a few female examples that have been mentioned, I've seen no one mention any males besides that odd "romance". Kaidan is straight and shows attraction to female characters, and has no qualms about mentioning that.

Like I said, low standards. People are so desperate to have "progressive" stories and characters they'll take pretty much anything, which is honestly quite sad.

[vbibbi]

It sounds like an issue of content versus method. Yes, the method of revealing Kaidan/Anders was not the best and I would have preferred it had been done better (for Anders, though I don't know if this means removing his comments about women in DAA or just adding a comment about a man). I can consider Kaidan being bisexual in ME3 a retcon if I'm being cynical (so...daily) but a retcon is still canon, it's just not well-planned canon.

 

I'm not going to lie, I am so glad that he is bisexual, because he is my favorite Bioware romance. Of course I wanted him to be a bisexual LI in 1 and 2 (though his scene in 2 is identical regardless of if he's a LI or not, right?). Yeah it would have been nice to have him show overt attraction to men prior to ME3. But in that line of thought, it's restrictive to say that because we've only heard his comments on women that means he automatically doesn't find men attractive. His comments on asari can be seen as being excited about the sex appeal of space exploration, since he mentions loving those stories as a kid.

 

And unfortunately, Bioware exists in the real world where they have to temper their inclusive messages in real world markets. Yes the future is supposed to be more accepting and let go of homophobia et al, but we don't actually see any "overt" homosexual men in the first two ME games do we? And if the future is so progressive, shouldn't gay men be more visible and doing the same kinds of jobs anyone else is doing? I do think it's a shame that Bio decided not to be more inclusive in the first two games, since they had already shown same sex romances in previous games. And even now when we have games with multiple same sex romances, almost all LGBT content is confined to those romances and not actually visible in the rest of the game setting.

 

A lot of words to say that Kaidan is canonically bisexual. The implementation of it wasn't great but I will take it and want Bioware to do better next time. If future games have similar treatment of gay men, though, that's going to be another issue entirely.

[daveliam]

So what are these male characters he shows attraction to? Because there's quite a few female examples that have been mentioned, I've seen no one mention any males besides that odd "romance". Kaidan is straight and shows attraction to female characters, and has no qualms about mentioning that.

Like I said, low standards. People are so desperate to have "progressive" stories and characters they'll take pretty much anything, which is honestly quite sad.

 

SHEPARD!  He shows attraction to male Shepard!  That's the male character he shows attraction to.  There doesn't need to be more than that for him to be bisexual.

 

It sounds like an issue of content versus method. Yes, the method of revealing Kaidan/Anders was not the best and I would have preferred it had been done better (for Anders, though I don't know if this means removing his comments about women in DAA or just adding a comment about a man). I can consider Kaidan being bisexual in ME3 a retcon if I'm being cynical (so...daily) but a retcon is still canon, it's just not well-planned canon.

 

I'm not going to lie, I am so glad that he is bisexual, because he is my favorite Bioware romance. Of course I wanted him to be a bisexual LI in 1 and 2 (though his scene in 2 is identical regardless of if he's a LI or not, right?). Yeah it would have been nice to have him show overt attraction to men prior to ME3. But in that line of thought, it's restrictive to say that because we've only heard his comments on women that means he automatically doesn't find men attractive. His comments on asari can be seen as being excited about the sex appeal of space exploration, since he mentions loving those stories as a kid.

 

And unfortunately, Bioware exists in the real world where they have to temper their inclusive messages in real world markets. Yes the future is supposed to be more accepting and let go of homophobia et al, but we don't actually see any "overt" homosexual men in the first two ME games do we? And if the future is so progressive, shouldn't gay men be more visible and doing the same kinds of jobs anyone else is doing? I do think it's a shame that Bio decided not to be more inclusive in the first two games, since they had already shown same sex romances in previous games. And even now when we have games with multiple same sex romances, almost all LGBT content is confined to those romances and not actually visible in the rest of the game setting.

 

A lot of words to say that Kaidan is canonically bisexual. The implementation of it wasn't great but I will take it and want Bioware to do better next time. If future games have similar treatment of gay men, though, that's going to be another issue entirely.

 

Exactly.  No one is arguing that it was well implemented.  People are just stating that simply because it wasn't well implemented doesn't mean that it "doesn't count" and, especially, that it's evidence that "Bioware doesn't care at all about gay guys".

[Bowlcuts]

I get a warning point for saying mean bad words and threads like these are still open.

 

gg modz.

[vbibbi]

SHEPARD!  He shows attraction to male Shepard!  That's the male character he shows attraction to.  There doesn't need to be more than that for him to be bisexual.

 

I mean if we're being honest, does the mirror count as a male he shows attraction to? Because damn!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I mean if we're being honest, does the mirror count as a male he shows attraction to? Because damn!

Narcissus would say so.

[Master Warder Z_]

I mean if we're being honest, does the mirror count as a male he shows attraction to? Because damn!

 

That would open up another can of worms entirely truth be told.

 

._. That would go into vain narcissism which doesn't really tie into sexuality at all but body image.

[Battlebloodmage]

Yeah, except Dean Winchester is straight and never has sex with a guy (that Destiel stuff is just fan fiction by the same yaoi fangirls who came up with "Wincest") whereas Kaidan gets pounded by Shepard in a canon male romance. He's also romanceable by a female Shepard. Hence "BISEXUAL".

Really though, I'm done with this argument. Good day, sir.

 

to be fair, Jensen Ackles opposes a lot to Destiel. He shut down a girl who has a question about Destiel and talked down to her and said that she ruined it for everyone at the convention, he also objected to a line where Dean said he loves Castiel, so they have to change it. The actor isn't comfortable playing gay characters, so it wouldn't happen. Misha Collins is a total sweetheart though, since he loves to indulge the fans and often even offer his interpretation of how much Dean and Castiel love each other. Still, while the two won't ever develop into a relationship, there is a clear baiting tactic by the producers, there are a lot of homoerotic undertones in the series intentionally make people want to watch the show. They know that the show survive on the gay baiting, which is why they keep bringing out these moments.

 

I don't see Kaidan as bisexual but playersexual (meaning not gay or straight either). I'm happy I can romance Kaidan, but I always feel like he sees me as femShep, he doesn't show any attraction at all to males. It's one thing to say that he has a preference, but he makes many repeated comments about females only. In ME world, gay people are not being discriminated in any way, so there's no reason for why he can't comment on how hot other guys are or some off-handed comments about guys. I feel like Bioware is still afraid to have guys to talk about the attraction toward the same sex because straight people may find it awkward. Straight guys may get creep out or think they're hitting on them and the girls may see the guys as gross and that their prince charming want to sleep with other guys.

[Panda]

Its a hot topic issue in a lot of Asia for a myriad of reasons, I mean they have to sell this product after all and if its only going to appeal to a certain market, it has to warrant expense and time. Like any game, the cost has to warrant the reward. Nothing really strange about it, its just how it is over there. Same process across the entire world, if you want to include something that may raise issues with the product, you have to make damn sure that you have enough of a audience left to recoup costs or else you fall into a money pit and that can sink whole companies.

 

So ultimately that is why it is as it is and I can't fault it, I will not honestly ask people to put their own job at risk to include some certain element, a good example of this? Outside of the erotic gaming industry subset you have mature games that feature censored or clipped erotic scenario like Brothers Conflict a dating simulator aimed at females who have a erm...brother fetish, this is a VERY controversial game that hit mild success but only after a lot of the more questionable aspects were cut in preproduction, I mean this is just a extreme example but that's Japan. I mean I admit to having a penchant for purchasing certain erotic Japanese games, but I am a very minor portion of that industry, I am the importing consumer, they have to make 80 to 90% of their money in their own country, I mean that's why kink has to fit kink ya know?

 

It all comes down to profit projections, its just how it is.

 

I find the profit and market question being bit silly, cause I find that they are often used as excuses to not be daring and to stuck in same old. I don't think that for example ME's f/f & m/m content have dropped the sales at all of the game and I'd think that most of japanese gamers (and gamers of Japanese games cause the one's that gets imported are played worldwide) would have similar situation. I guess some fans would get angry as always, like those who got angry over Kyoto Animation doing fanservice anime for female audiences (Free! Iwatobi swim club) when they have mostly done fanservice animes for male audiences before that. Despite some audience getting mad for content that was not aimed for them, the anime is very popular worldwide- and this is anime studion making animation for entirely different audience than their usual audience is- game that included gay romances without cutting straight romances likely wouldn't even face close to that uproar. 

 

Also in lot of cases it doesn't seem like marketers and companies are aware of the demand and their audiences even or then they just want to ignore part of them intentionally. The thing is that there is enough demand for gay romances in games outside of visual dating novels to justify including money-wise.

[Steelcan]

Huh well TIL being willing to enter a sexual relationship with a man doesn't mean they are actually gay/bi depending

Learn something new every day

[Master Warder Z_]

The thing is that there is enough demand for gay romances in games outside of visual dating novels to justify including money-wise.

 

Eh, depends on the company, the production costs, and other expenses.

 

Something safe usually sales better then a edgy flop as 'Rapelay' will attest, I mean really (Luckily I bought my copy back in 2008 ) I mean if you try to push something just because there is a demand for it, you run the risk of offending the audience. I mean if you want a less extreme version lets try Enzai, a BL VN series, It takes relatively few risks, its pretty straight forward, but that doesn't change it having one of the most engaging story arcs and a very good atmosphere for that kind of story.

 

Its literally like to my knowledge of one of the most successful BL video game series in existence because its niche fanbase supports it so thoroughly.

 

Ultimately this has jack to do with Bioware or ME though, I just figured I'd point out that Japanese businesses have to cater to their own fanbase first and foremost especially in niche markets. So I wouldn't advise against social commentary or speaking a message, I'd just say do it at your own financial risk.

[Battlebloodmage]

Huh well TIL being willing to enter a sexual relationship with a man doesn't mean they are actually gay/bi depending

Learn something new every day

I think people are just disappointed that Kaidan option was just copy and paste version just so they have a bi option to balance out Liara. I love Kaidan, but truth be told, his romance has a bunch of scenes, especially romantic scenes cut out like when Kaidan puts Shep's hand on his face or when Shep sits on top of him or even just simple things like holding hands and walking into the club together. It just feels like a half-ass effort from Bioware when he keeps having Kaidan continuously talking about females in ME3 just like with previous game and not even a mention of Kaidan talking about guys. It just seems like Kaidan was talking to femShep when you know the scenes are just basically cut to remove the feminine parts, so it's like he was talking to a femShep instead of a maleShep. I would say he's straight but playersexual to throw a bone to the gays to get them to shut the hell up instead of it being a genuine effort from them. That's just my impression, at least.

[Steelcan]

I don't want to hear about half assed efforts

#Mirandalorian4lyfe

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't want to hear about half assed efforts

#Mirandalorian4lyfe

I'm not a Miranda fan, but Mirandalorian is amazing. 

 

And yeah, overall the Kaidan fans really aren't in a position to complain about how they didn't get enough resources. 

[Battlebloodmage]

I don't want to hear about half assed efforts

#Mirandalorian4lyfe

Halfass effort for the guys, not the girls. Female version of Kaidan was perfect with the full contents. At least you have a full game in ME2, the gay version of Kaidan is basically just an inferior version from straight Kaidan in the last game. 

 

If we're gonna play woe is me, then Thane fans and that one Jacob fan have it the worst.

[Akrabra]

If we're gonna play woe is me, then Thane fans and that one Jacob fan have it the worst.

Why Thane fans? You know he is dying, you take that risk. 

[Statare]

I'm not a Miranda fan, but Mirandalorian is amazing. 

 

And yeah, overall the Kaidan fans really aren't in a position to complain about how they didn't get enough resources. 

 

They do because that content exists for one version of Shepard and not the other. It would be kind of like if people who romanced X character with default Sheploo face got more content then people who made a custom face because animation issues. It would feel like a corner was cut, and since Kaidan was half of the m/m content in ME3 it was a noticeable lack of content for a specific Shepard subset that already had limited content. It's cumulative.

[Battlebloodmage]

Why Thane fans? You know he is dying, you take that risk. 

Maybe it was the way he died. People were so upset by that. It's one way to die through illness, it's another thing to be killed by space ninja. It's weird how they said they made Thane to appeal to females though, do females like to have their LI die of an illness or to take care of a terminally ill person or something? I didn't romance Thane, but that usually is a common sentiment when it comes to Thane's death.