1472 réponses à ce sujet

[Prince Enigmatic]

This should be more an issue of Kaidan only being available as a love interest for Male Shepards in Mass Effect 3 than the plausibility of him being bisexual, because the latter just seems to be going round in circles.

 

A man who only seems to express romantic interest in a woman, who then expresses romantic interest in a man, is bisexual (bi = two, twice, binary, men and women etc), no matter when or how far along that expression is. Just because Kaidan only decides to pursue a relationship with a Male Shepard in ME3, doesn't negate the fact that his interest in a Male Shepard in this game makes him bisexual, no matter how difficult it is to visualize Kaidan as also liking men, because of notions of masculinity and same-sex relationships between men, which I would argue seems to be where a majority of people are having difficulty seeing Kaidan as bisexual, but not all. Gay and bisexual men can serve in the military. If it is difficult for some people to see a man in a military setting be gay or bisexual then I don't think this can be argued further.

[Jalepeno Fire]

So it looks like Turians and Quarians are the tops right now. Both would be awesome.

 

Out of any race though, I'd go with Salarian. Romancing a character that's of a race with basically no sex drive would be incredibly interesting and would be sure to provide some real cute and humorous scenes.

 

Oh, and weren't we done with that whole Kaidan argument before Zeta had to bring it up again? I'm not responding to it, I can't take another Abadonn gif. 

[Battlebloodmage]

To be honest, I just want a "leading man" type character to be gay since those types are often straight, this is always true for Bioware games.

 

I'm not so sure about Salarians, I don't ever see any of my character in a asexual relationship. It's not about sex scenes since I'm ok with cut to black in other games, but it's more about headcanon and imagine your characters, and as a sexual person, I find sex in a relationship to be very important and I can't imagine or roleplay as someone who is in a relationship with someone asexual. I would like to explore aspect of relationships like how other aliens view relationship and gender in general. 

[vbibbi]

Kaidan, in ME2, tells Shepard that losing him was like losing a limb. All the camera shots of them talking in ME1 somehow managed to have more sexual tension than actual porn (the lighting, the slow walk, the turn, the staredown - seriously, those two could just have started ripping their shirts off and it would have seemed more natural than their talking). I don't know what game you've played, but Kaiden being into Shepard is not out of character. 

Plus Kaidan is getting all sweaty every time Shep comes up, as he's always rubbing his forehead before standing up.

 

I don't remember how the fem!Shep Kaidan romance goes in ME1. Does she have to make the first move or does he? If fem!Shep does, then it also makes sense that Kaidan isn't going to hit on a superior officer, regardless of gender.

[Midnight Bliss]

For the purposes of this response, assume instances of me saying "Shepard" or "Shep" are in reference to Bro Shep.

 

Kaidan, in ME2, tells Shepard that losing him was like losing a limb. All the camera shots of them talking in ME1 somehow managed to have more sexual tension than actual porn (the lighting, the slow walk, the turn, the staredown - seriously, those two could just have started ripping their shirts off and it would have seemed more natural than their talking). I don't know what game you've played, but Kaiden being into Shepard is not out of character. 

I'll go beyond your post, just for the sake of definitively debunking all this.

 

 

• Kaidan is a submissive man in professional environments, he prefers to follow someone he trusts/respects rather than leading, which is established and reestablished multiple times throughout the series.

 

• Kaidan makes the limb comment because he enjoys being part of the Normandy very much, he also enjoys serving under Shepard very much and he has huge amount of respect for Shepard. So when Shep is killed, for him, given his personality (see above), it is like losing one of his limbs. A person could also argue they're very close "bros" so the death hit him really hard due to losing a close friend.

 

• All the camera shots lightning and "staredown" in ME are gender and romance unspecific, and therefore they don't indicate anything at all. Using these scenes for head canons, fan fiction, or personal stories is awesome, but they have nothing to do with Kaidan's independent canon. Finally, Kaidan was not bisexual in ME1 or ME2 so you claiming Shep independent canon bisexual content exists in those two chapters of the trilogy is ridiculous.

 

• In ME3 Kaidan's not having approached Bro Shep sooner makes no sense and is out of character given how he behaves the two other times he had strong romantic feelings for someone. One could assert that maybe his relationship with Bro Shep was unique, but this would be untrue, because his relationship with Bro Shep in ME1 and ME2 directly parallels FemShep throughout all emotional checkpoints (Lots of respect, enjoying serving under their command, personal admiration/friendship) except sexual attraction/romantic love. One could also assert that it had to do with some sort of hangup about homosexual intimacy, but this doesn't make sense because all evidence suggests that Mass Effect takes place in a post tolerance galaxy, and it be illogical to think Kaidan would have an atypical personal hangup like that when nothing else about his character suggests he's that sort of person. As such, we're forced to conclude that the "explanation" is bullshit, and ultimately existed for the exclusive purpose of trying explaining a playersexual OOC M/M relationship they forced on Kaidan in ME3 in order to appear progressive.

 

• The other "explanation" I've heard tossed around for the M/M romance in 3 was that Kaidan felt Bro Shep was "too busy with work" and didn't say anything. This is also OOC and not believable, because Kaidan is an emotional man and very much influenced by his heart, to the point he has difficulty controlling himself when he's around someone with whom he has strong romantic feelings. Note how Kaidan disregards Brain-Camp's implied rules on fraternization in order to get closer to Rahna and even flies into a biotic rage and kills Vyrnnus in order to protect her, and Rahna isn't even his girlfriend. With FemShep, who he's falling in love with very early in the Trilogy, there are multiple instances of him slipping up and complimenting her when he probably shouldn't, one of the biggest examples of this being the overlook scene on Citadel with Ash, Shep and himself, where he reacts with lots of excitement when Shepard talks about things to love about humanity and it's obvious he's crushing on her hard. He's also willing to walk the line of military regulations on fraternization in order to pursue Shep, and eventually willing to ignore them completely so he can just be with her. Therefore this idea that he, a nesting ride or die for love man, was crushing on Bro Shep but said nothing is simply absurd and completely unbelievable.

 

• Kaidan indicates interest in women numerous times(Getting mesmerized at Cora's Den by the Strippers, saying he cares about Femshep even outside a romance, Telling Broshep he saw Liara first if they pursue her, Talking about Benezia's sexy dress, talking about Asari being so sexy, commenting on EDI's sexbot body looking nice, ECT) but never in men, not a single comment, ever. Which is OOC and unbelievable in a post tolerance galaxy given his personality.

 

• The Bro Shep x Kaidan romance has zero content of it's own, and cut content from the story from which it came. This, when combined with all the evidence above strongly suggests it existences only as a playersexual M/M romance option because of them trying to shove "progressive" content into characters where it didn't belong, and to give a gay Bro Sheps a second LI option.

 

I could probably go further if I put my mind to it, but...

 

Characters don't turn gay or bi because of player fetishization, or because it suits somebody's head canon, and this whole situation should be used as a huge underscore of BW's massive failure at attempting to turn heterosexual characters bi in order to placate their LGB fanbase. What they should have been doing all along was writing new gay, bi and lesbian characters to join their already pre existing casts, who could be interesting and fresh representations of LGB and provide something for the fans to whom they were being created for to love and enjoy and have all to themselves, not degrading pre existing characters by giving them weird and ooc edits to their sexuality.

 

You can get your clique to run and up vote your post in some desperate attempt to validate it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact Kaidan isn't bisexual simply because you want him to be, or because BW tried and failed to assassinate his character with that modded tripe.

I assume you enjoy his M/M romance, and I'm happy for you. Just like I'm happy for everyone who enjoys Kaidan because I love everything about him and am always glad when other people enjoy him, and I'm just fine with compartmentalizing my misgivings about that romance for the sake of more people getting to enjoy Kaidan, but at the end of the day he's still ultimately a heterosexual character.

To you (or, if not, a lot of M/M romancers) he was just the most ideal piece of meat on the rack. But for me, Kaidan is my favorite BW character and his is my favorite romance story (arguably in anything) and I would hope that people might actually listen to myself and other ride or die Kaidan fans who debunked the fiction of his bisexuality multiple times instead being endlessly being contrary and trying to prove he's bisexual with a bunch of fairground arguments and random nonsense.

 

People should take this fracus as an example that for all the way they've come BW still has a long way to go with M/M representation, and should be that much more motivated in wanting a real M/M romance option like Kaidan, and not be satisfied until they get it.

[Eckswhyzed]

Kaidan indicates interest in women numerous times(Getting mesmerized at Cora's Den by the Strippers, saying he cares about Femshep even outside a romance, Telling Broshep he saw Liara first if they pursue her, Talking about Benezia's sexy dress, talking about Asari being so sexy, commenting on EDI's sexbot body looking nice, ECT) but never in men, not a single comment, ever. Which is OOC and unbelievable in a post tolerance galaxy given his personality.

I don't have time for a full response right now but I do want to point out that it's not uncommon for bisexuals to express attraction towards each gender in different ways.

[Midnight Bliss]

I don't have time for a full response right now but I do want to point out that it's not uncommon for bisexuals to show express attraction towards each gender in different ways.

You're right, but other parts of my comment accounted for that. I don't think any one thing I brought up in particular necessarily disproves the bisexuality thing, it's more once you add everything up it becomes impossible to reach any conclusion except the one I previously mentioned.

 

I look forward to a full post from you when / if you have the time though. (Not being sarcastic)

[In Exile]

You're right, but other parts of my comment accounted for that. I don't think any one thing I brought up in particular necessarily disproves the bisexuality thing, it's more once you add everything up it becomes impossible to reach any conclusion except the one I previously mentioned.

 

I look forward to a full post from you when / if you have the time though. (Not being sarcastic)

 

No, you didn't. What you did was post your interpretation. These parts of your post are purely interpretative: 

 

• Kaidan is a submissive man in professional environments, he prefers to follow someone he trusts/respects rather than leading, which is established and reestablished multiple times throughout the series.

 

• Kaidan makes the limb comment because he enjoys being part of the Normandy very much, he also enjoys serving under Shepard very much and he has huge amount of respect for Shepard. So when Shep is killed, for him, given his personality (see above), it is like losing one of his limbs. A person could also argue they're very close "bros" so the death hit him really hard due to losing a close friend.

 

• All the camera shots lightning and "staredown" in ME are gender and romance unspecific, and therefore they don't indicate anything at all. Using these scenes for head canons, fan fiction, or personal stories is awesome, but they have nothing to do with Kaidan's independent canon. Finally, Kaidan was not bisexual in ME1 or ME2 so you claiming Shep independent canon bisexual content exists in those two chapters of the trilogy is ridiculous.

 

You've actually replied to your own post. I've even bolded it for you. Your entire position, really, is that there's no support for the character interpretation that Kaiden was bisexual throughout. The fact that you repeatedly hammer on is the following:

 

• Kaidan indicates interest in women numerous times(Getting mesmerized at Cora's Den by the Strippers, saying he cares about Femshep even outside a romance, Telling Broshep he saw Liara first if they pursue her, Talking about Benezia's sexy dress, talking about Asari being so sexy, commenting on EDI's sexbot body looking nice, ECT) but never in men, not a single comment, ever. Which is OOC and unbelievable in a post tolerance galaxy given his personality.

 

As many people have pointed out in this thread - and ignoring again the underlined point that goes back to the point you've already addressed yourself, in bold -  this is not proof that he isn't bisexual. You can't prove that a character isn't bisexual short of their saying that they aren't bisexual. You can't prove negatives that way. This is all about character interpretation. 

 

Everything else is just a rant. And you are entitled to your view, but there isn't any substance to it apart from your insistence that your character interpretation is absolutely true. Even the central lynchpin of your argument is just character interpretation - that if Kaiden were bi he would talk about how he finds men sexy. But this isn't something he does in ME3, where he is supposedly switched from straight to bi. 

 

Are you arguing that he isn't bi in ME3? Because that's just nonsense.

[Midnight Bliss]

No, you didn't. What you did was post your interpretation. These parts of your post are purely interpretative: 

 

snip

 

As many people have pointed out in this thread - and ignoring again the underlined point that goes back to the point you've already addressed yourself, in bold -  this is not proof that he isn't bisexual. You can't prove that a character isn't bisexual short of their saying that they aren't bisexual. You can't prove negatives that way. This is all about character interpretation. 

 

Everything else is just a rant. And you are entitled to your view, but there isn't any substance to it apart from your insistence that your character interpretation is absolutely true. Even the central lynchpin of your argument is just character interpretation - that if Kaiden were bi he would talk about how he finds men sexy. But this isn't something he does in ME3, where he is supposedly switched from straight to bi. 

 

Are you arguing that he isn't bi in ME3? Because that's just nonsense.

It isn't my interpretation, it's the canon story.

 

So you're claiming any character who doesn't say they aren't bisexual could be interpreted as bisexual?

 

I listed example after example of canon elements of his storyline and character that give credibility to my assertion that he's straight. And so far, the only examples anyone can give to establish this supposed bisexuality are,

Lighting on the Normandy

Idle and walking animations while speaking to him in ME1.

Various head canon stuff.

A comment on Horizon that's being taken out of context.

The fact he never announces "I'm not bisexual".

The playersexual M/M romance in ME3.

(Am I forgetting any?)

 

I think when someone has to resort to referencing Normandy's interior lighting to explain thinking a character is bisexual it's probably a good guess they're just barking up the wrong tree.

 

 

I'm arguing he's straight in the entire trilogy, with a playersexual M/M romance in ME3. - (What I once called a mod in this thread, but since several commenters seemed to think I meant that in a hostile way I've since updated my terminology to avoid further lack of clarity)

[Jedi Comedian]

About the Kaidan thing: had I made ME3 I would have made an entirely new character as the bi male LI, I mean, I prefer a character who is romanceable since the beginning, it does strike me as rather odd that when you romance Kaidan as male in ME3 he acts as if in ME1 Shepard was "so focused back then" and he ignored him or something, when in that game romancing him as male was entirely out of the picture. So I would have prefered if, I don't know, James or even Javik (who should have been featured in the vanilla game, by the way) were the bi male LIs. Just my opinion.

[Eckswhyzed]

So you're claiming any character who doesn't say they aren't bisexual could be interpreted as bisexual?

Well....that's actually not as unreasonable as it sounds. In the world we live in today, we assume that the majority of people we meet are heterosexual. Is there any textual evidence to support this in the Mass Effect universe? Any particular reason why random characters we meet aren't bisexual?

As for the whole FemShep vs. MaleShep reactions, I've always found it odd how we compare characters across playthroughs. In one universe, Shepard is female and Kaidan can express his attraction during the events of Mass Effect 1, in some other parallel dimension Shepard is male and Kaidan doesn't. Is it so unreasonable to believe that 'Kaidan' is different in each universe?

• The Bro Shep x Kaidan romance has zero content of it's own, and cut content from the story from which it came. This, when combined with all the evidence above strongly suggests it existences only as a playersexual M/M romance option because of them trying to shove "progressive" content into characters where it didn't belong, and to give a gay Bro Sheps a second LI option.

By this logic, because MaleShep x Liara romance has zero content of its own, it exists only as a playersexual M/F romance option because of them trying to shove "mainstream" content into characters where it didn't belong, and to give a straight Bro Sheps a second LI option in Mass Effect 1.

Obviously the above paragraph is totally absurd. But the point I'm making is that you can paint nearly any romance you wish to as 'pandering' to a part of the audience. It's a completely unhelpful distinction to make.

[daveliam]

Are you arguing that he isn't bi in ME3? Because that's just nonsense.

 

That's exactly what he's arguing.  That the in-game content in ME3 "doesn't count" because he doesn't like how it was implemented.  Therefore, he claims that Kaidan is a heterosexual character, despite being very clearly bisexual.  <cue gif of redhead in response>

[Prince Enigmatic]

I'm just going to add, that I am pretty sure there was the original intention for Kaidan to be available as a love interest for Male Shepard's in ME1, but was later cut, with some of the voice acting work done but not implemented.

If that were the case, I'm sure this discussion would be void. But since how Kaidan is portrayed in ME1 and ME2 is all that's being considers canon or valid here, with how he is later portrayed as in ME3 not being considered valid because of how late it was added, I think this is ultimately down to interpretation. But I still argue saying something that happens in ME3 isn't canon, no matter how ludicrous that may be, is slightly ludicrous itself. The Illusive Man wasn't even conceived as a character in ME1. That doesn't mean his appearance in ME2 as the head of Cerberus isn't canon, no matter the changes it makes to Cerberus as we originally knew it.

 

Also when another member up votes or likes a post, which I don't think you can actually request, it doesn't validate anything. It merely means either someone likes or agrees with that post. I didn't ask my 'clique' to do anything. That term, and the comment you made there, I take offense to because it implies you think that I just went and asked everyone to like my comment in a desperate attempt to be right, and prove you wrong. That was not the case, and I would have thought anyone would know that. 

Modifié par Prince E, 07 mars 2016 - 12:08 .

[daveliam]

I'm just going to add, that I am pretty sure there was the original intention for Kaidan to be available as a love interest for Male Shepard's in ME1, but was later cut, with some of the voice acting work done but not implemented.

Also when another member up votes or likes a post, which I don't think you can actually request, it doesn't validate anything. It merely means either someone likes or agrees with that post.

If that were the case, I'm sure this discussion would be void. But since how Kaidan is portrayed in ME1 and ME2 is all that's being considers canon or valid here, with how he is later portrayed as in ME3 not being considered valid because of how late it was added, I think this is ultimately down to interpretation. But I still argue saying something that happens in ME3 isn't canon, no matter how ludicrous that may be, is slightly ludicrous itself.

 

Yeah, this is ultimately the issue that I have with that line of argument.  I accept that people (like myself) who feel that Kaidan and mShep had chemistry throughout are making that argument based on subjective interpretation.  If other people don't see it, that's totally fine.  But to argue that content in the game isn't canon because you don't like how it was implemented is, well, it's just wrong.  As in objectively wrong.  If a character can be romanced by both males and females in the game, then that character is bisexual.  Any denial of that fact is just using your own subjective interpretation and, like other subjective interpretations, means nothing to back to up any statements.

 

I like Kaidan but I hate how he was implemented as a m/m romance.  But it doesn't mean that I think he doesn't count.  Because that just doesn't make any logical sense.

[Prince Enigmatic]

 

 

You can get your clique to run and up vote your post in some desperate attempt to validate it all you want, but that doesn't change the fact Kaidan isn't bisexual simply because you want him to be, or because BW tried and failed to assassinate his character with that modded tripe.

 

 

I'm going to add that if anything, people having liked my previous post only shows that people agree that this argument over Kaidan's bisexuality is futile, and should really just stop because it is deviating off course from the actual point of this thread, and judging by the words you have used here in response to the likes of other people's comments, shows that this argument is moving passed courteous civility and moving into more pettier territory. 

[Midnight Bliss]

About the Kaidan thing: had I made ME3 I would have made an entirely new character as the bi male LI, I mean, I prefer a character who is romanceable since the beginning, it does strike me as rather odd that when you romance Kaidan as male in ME3 he acts as if in ME1 Shepard was "so focused back then" and he ignored him or something, when in that game romancing him as male was entirely out of the picture. So I would have prefered if, I don't know, James or even Javik (who should have been featured in the vanilla game, by the way) were the bi male LIs. Just my opinion.

I would have loved James as a bi LI for ME3, I think he definitely should have been the other choice for gay Bro sheps.

 

Well....that's actually not as unreasonable as it sounds. In the world we live in today, we assume that the majority of people we meet are heterosexual. Is there any textual evidence to support this in the Mass Effect universe? Any particular reason why random characters we meet aren't bisexual?

As for the whole FemShep vs. MaleShep reactions, I've always found it odd how we compare characters across playthroughs. In one universe, Shepard is female and Kaidan can express his attraction during the events of Mass Effect 1, in some other parallel dimension Shepard is male and Kaidan doesn't. Is it so unreasonable to believe that 'Kaidan' is different in each universe?

Fair enough.

 

I actually think that is a really, really interesting way of looking at it.

 

Good on you

 

That's exactly what he's arguing.  That the in-game content in ME3 "doesn't count" because he doesn't like how it was implemented.  Therefore, he claims that Kaidan is a heterosexual character, despite being very clearly bisexual.  <cue gif of redhead in response>

Does this whole bitchy passive aggressive routine of yours get old after a while or is it just your thing?

 

 

I'm going to add that if anything, people having liked my previous post only shows that people agree that this argument over Kaidan's bisexuality is futile, and should really just stop because it is deviating off course from the actual point of this thread, and judging by the words you have used here in response to the likes of other people's comments, shows that this argument is moving passed courteous civility and moving into more pettier territory. 

I agree the argument is probably futile.

It's actually weird, because my original comment wasn't even something I ever imagined would blow up across multiple pages to begin with, since like I mentioned to you previously and touched on again in one of my above comments when all is said and done I sort of have a live-let live mentality with things like this, and since it ultimately just leads to more people enjoying the character it's kind of pointless anyway. Damn me being no good at tolerating people who pointlessly try to start drama with me.

 

As for your last point, you didn't seem to object to the antagonism that was coming toward me, so I'm not sure why you'd suddenly object now that some came from me.

[daveliam]

So it looks like Turians and Quarians are the tops right now. Both would be awesome.

Out of any race though, I'd go with Salarian. Romancing a character that's of a race with basically no sex drive would be incredibly interesting and would be sure to provide some real cute and humorous scenes.

Yeah, I liked the idea of a salarian special forces romance, but I suspect too many people wouldn't go for it because they have no sex drive. Maybe just a Garrus-esque 'bro' relationship?

Honestly, I'd be good with any gaylien romance outside of a male drell. Just not interested. Skinny space ninja isn't my thing. Maybe a female drell I could get behind for a lesbian option though.

Realistically, though, I suspect if it happens it would be down to drell, quarian, and turian for the m/m option.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Since there are obvious limitations to the squad in ME:A, and with them all not possibly going to be able to fulfill every wish in terms of which species are included, what their genders and sexuality is, I'm happy for there to be more NPCs available for potential romances as well, just perhaps with more content than we've seen in the past.

Obviously the options in the squad are preferable, since you can take them on missions, and generally there are more interactions to be had with them. But NPCs can easily fulfill the long laundry list of options people have been personally pining for as well, even if it isn't as preferable as having a squadmate fulfill that exact role.

 

I would just be happy with a more equal balance of options, whether that be on the squad or crew or other NPCs. 

[Battlebloodmage]

You know, it wouldn't be a problem if they actually have bisexual males flirting or at least talking about other guys. With the amount of bisexual males Bioware has, they have never gotten even one right. Bisexual in many games are just cases of playersexual. That's the difference. In Fallout 4, I find the game to be playersexual, so people can have freedom and imagine the characters' sexuality but they also have their characters hitting on or express interest to indicate their own sexuality, Piper will get turned on by Magnolia, Cait will flirt with both guys and girls openly, MacCready will hit on the female characters, Hancock is bisexual where he will have both guys and girls coming up to him talking about sleeping with him again soon. I find Kaidan to be one of those cases, he's playersexual. , not bisexual. If and when Bioware implement the next bisexual, I hope they can differentiate between bisexual and playersexual. It gets tired at this point seeing the bisexual characters either only hitting on girls or prefer girls. It's like opposite sex is the default and being with a guy is just happen to be the best of a worst situation. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Since there are obvious limitations to the squad in ME:A, and with them all not possibly going to be able to fulfill every wish in terms of which species are included, what their genders and sexuality is, I'm happy for there to be more NPCs available for potential romances as well, just perhaps with more content than we've seen in the past.

Obviously the options in the squad are preferable, since you can take them on missions, and generally there are more interactions to be had with them. But NPCs can easily fulfill the long laundry list of options people have been personally pining for as well, even if it isn't as preferable as having a squadmate fulfill that exact role.

 

I would just be happy with a more equal balance of options, whether that be on the squad or crew or other NPCs. 

I just hope they don't jam in the gay option to be NPC again. 

[vbibbi]

You know, it wouldn't be a problem if they actually have bisexual males flirting or at least talking about other guys. With the amount of bisexual males Bioware has, they have never gotten even one right. Bisexual in many games are just cases of playersexual. That's the difference. In Fallout 4, I find the game to be playersexual, so people can have freedom and imagine the characters' sexuality but they also have their characters hitting on or express interest to indicate their own sexuality, Piper will get turned on by Magnolia, Cait will flirt with both guys and girls openly, MacCready will hit on the female characters, Hancock is bisexual where he will have both guys and girls coming up to him talking about sleeping with him again soon. I find Kaidan to be one of those cases, he's playersexual. , not bisexual. If and when Bioware implement the next bisexual, I hope they can differentiate between bisexual and playersexual. It gets tired at this point seeing the bisexual characters either only hitting on girls or prefer girls. It's like opposite sex is the default and being with a guy is just happen to be the best of a worst situation. 

I agree that male bisexual people need to be better portrayed in games and less of the playersexual method. But I still consider Kaidan as bi rather than playersexual. IMO, if he were playersexual his romance dialogue would have contained something like "I've never felt this way toward a man before, but with you it's right, Shepard" or something to that effect. There is no explicit mention of how Shep is the exception to the rule.

[Midnight Bliss]

Another poster who can't respond when confronted about their double standards. Lovely.

-------------------------------------

 

You know, it wouldn't be a problem if they actually have bisexual males flirting or at least talking about other guys. With the amount of bisexual males Bioware has, they have never gotten even one right. Bisexual in many games are just cases of playersexual. That's the difference. In Fallout 4, I find the game to be playersexual, so people can have freedom and imagine the characters' sexuality but they also have their characters hitting on or express interest to indicate their own sexuality, Piper will get turned on by Magnolia, Cait will flirt with both guys and girls openly, MacCready will hit on the female characters, Hancock is bisexual where he will have both guys and girls coming up to him talking about sleeping with him again soon. I find Kaidan to be one of those cases, he's playersexual. , not bisexual. If and when Bioware implement the next bisexual, I hope they can differentiate between bisexual and playersexual. It gets tired at this point seeing the bisexual characters either only hitting on girls or prefer girls. It's like opposite sex is the default and being with a guy is just happen to be the best of a worst situation. 

I kind of have a big problem with playersexual characters, considering they typically exist to appease minorities while allowing the developer to not have to commit to having gay/bisexual characters in their story which seems so... Pandering? Cowardly? -shrug

 

I seriously hope ME:A does away with the whole concept of playersexuality entirely and has some real bisexual male characters if they want that to be a thing, or just sticks with gay/lesbians/heterosexuals since this 2-2-2 framework for LIs is getting pretty tired and overplayed as it is anyway.

 

I agree that male bisexual people need to be better portrayed in games and less of the playersexual method. But I still consider Kaidan as bi rather than playersexual. IMO, if he were playersexual his romance dialogue would have contained something like "I've never felt this way toward a man before, but with you it's right, Shepard" or something to that effect. There is no explicit mention of how Shep is the exception to the rule.

No playersexual M/M BW romance ever had dialogue like that so why would you expect it with Kaidan?

[vbibbi]

 

No playersexual M/M BW romance ever had dialogue like that so why would you expect it with Kaidan?

Well, although DA2 romances are now confirmed by WoG to be bisexual, at the time the game came out they were all considered playersexual, at least by fans, and Bioware didn't correct this. And in the game, Anders only mentions his relationship with Karl to a male Hawke. Which, although I don't agree with it and feel he should have mentioned it to female Hawke as well, is an argument that he's playersexual. So there is a little precedence in Bio handling playersexual differently from bisexual in romances.

[Prince Enigmatic]

Another poster who can't respond when confronted about their double standards. Lovely.

 

 

I wasn't aware of any antagonism directed towards you, if you feel I may have directed some of that antagonism, please quote me where you think I have, and if that is the case I will apologize because I never meant to come across as antagonistic.

 

As for others possibly being antagonistic, again I would need to see where you felt their comments were being antagonistic. Also I never said that what you said was antagonistic, I merely meant that I personally felt that it was leaning more towards pettiness and less civility that should be upheld when debating or discussing issues where differing opinions come to the fore.

 

Back on topic of thread, I just hope that whatever choice BioWare ultimately goes with in portraying their characters sexuality, there isn't an uproar again. I remember there was controversy about the first game because of the option to romance aliens, then with ME3 it was because there were same-sex relationships between men. I fear if there were to be an option to romance an alien as a male protagonist, there will be some controversy about that, which I hope not, because I may be naive to think this, but I had hoped the gaming industry and media has matured somewhat since 2012.

[Battlebloodmage]

Another poster who can't respond when confronted about their double standards. Lovely.

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I kind of have a big problem with playersexual characters, considering they typically exist to appease minorities while allowing the developer to not have to commit to having gay/bisexual characters in their story which seems so... Pandering? Cowardly? -shrug

 

I seriously hope ME:A does away with the whole concept of playersexuality entirely and has some real bisexual male characters if they want that to be a thing, or just sticks with gay/lesbians/heterosexuals since this 2-2-2 framework for LIs is getting pretty tired and overplayed as it is anyway.

 

No playersexual M/M BW romance ever had dialogue like that so why would you expect it with Kaidan?

That's exactly the situation with Star Wars the Old Republic, they lied that about wanting to implement sexuality properly while in fact they fear the backlash of having gay romance in a T-rated MMORPG game considering straight males sometimes have 2 options to choose from. After the gay planet, all the romance subsequently are basically just all playersexual with Theron, Lana, and Koth. It's just minimum effort in a way that say, "see? we have it now so stop complaining". Too much for implementing different sexualities for that series. It just turns me off the game completely due to the patronizing, not even because they don't have gay romance in it.

 

There is a difference in waiting to implement something because they want to vs doing something just to fulfill a certain status quo. Games like Fire Emblem and Star Wars the Old Republic implement it make it very obvious they just want to appease the fans. Playersexual meaning that they allow people to romance anyone they want even when characters only express interest in the opposite sex, not that they only attract to just the protagonist. It's the case of the player's agency supercede everything else. I honestly feel like they choose Kaidan because most people have him dead and saves Ashley instead (from statistic), he's not a popular option, and you can kill him off at the start as well. There's no much to lose if he's the gay option. This can be further proven with the copy and paste job from femShep's data. This is what happen when developers choose to include something because their hands are forced instead of wanting to do it because they want to, and I don't think they would ever include gay options if no one has ever spoken up and also pointed out the lesbian options in the game.