1472 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

I agree that male bisexual people need to be better portrayed in games and less of the playersexual method. But I still consider Kaidan as bi rather than playersexual. IMO, if he were playersexual his romance dialogue would have contained something like "I've never felt this way toward a man before, but with you it's right, Shepard" or something to that effect. There is no explicit mention of how Shep is the exception to the rule.

Right. I totally agree that having all six of the bisexual guys showing a preference for females or defaulting to females if not romanced is problematic. It's something that I've been critiquing Bioware about for years. They ALMOST got it right with Iron Bull ending up with Dorian but outside of that, which only happens if happen to have both of them in your party long enough to trigger the banter, all of Bull's dialogue is about females. Just for once, I'd like to see a bisexual guy overtly showing a preference for males.

And I agree that I don't see any of this as 'playersexual' any more than all of the other romances are 'playersexual'. Since it's a made up BSN term, people use it in different ways, but I always thought the consensus was that it referred to a character with either no preference outside of the PC (like Merrill was originally thought to be) or a character whose preferences actually changed to meet the PC's gender (as in 'I'm straight' to a female PC and 'I'm gay' to a make PC). But neither of these fit any of the bisexual male LIs. They all show interest in females and at least 3 of them (Zevran, Anders, and Bull) also show at least some interest in males too. We've never had a Bioware LI change his sexuality because of the PCs gender before. It would be like saying that Juhani wasn't actually a lesbian because male Revan can't talk to her about it. It requires mental gymnastics.

[daveliam]

I just hope they don't jam in the gay option to be NPC again.

Yeah. Although, now we've had 4 NPC romances across the Bioware games and it's pretty even.

1 gay guy
1 lesbian
1 bisexual woman
1 straight guy

I wouldn't be too worked up if a gay guy was an NPC in the next game because it's rotating around a bit and we're all getting them.

[Angry_Elcor]

 

Creating this meme taught me something. Apparently, all jests aside, lions are really open-minded when it comes to sex.

[Mysot_Stormrage]

 

Creating this meme taught me something. Apparently, all jests aside, lions are really open-minded when it comes to sex.

 

Yarp, they hump to strengthen hierarchical bonds.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I always thought the consensus was that it referred to a character with either no preference outside of the PC (like Merrill was originally thought to be) 

[vbibbi]

Yeah. Although, now we've had 4 NPC romances across the Bioware games and it's pretty even.

1 gay guy
1 lesbian
1 bisexual woman
1 straight guy

I wouldn't be too worked up if a gay guy was an NPC in the next game because it's rotating around a bit and we're all getting them.

I wouldn't mind the LGBT LIs being NPCs rather than companions in MEA, as long as the romance content was about equal to that of the squadmates. But since ME has less "in field" content for squadmates than DA does, I think it would be easier to implement. Especially if the NPCs are vital to the colony effort, while the squadmates are just the muscle.

 

 

Creating this meme taught me something. Apparently, all jests aside, lions are really open-minded when it comes to sex.

[daveliam]

Damn, your response was really quick this time. I knew you'd eventually respond but that must have broke a record. Do you have some sort of alert that cues you in whenever Merrill is mentioned anywhere?

[Midnight Bliss]

Well, although DA2 romances are now confirmed by WoG to be bisexual, at the time the game came out they were all considered playersexual, at least by fans, and Bioware didn't correct this. And in the game, Anders only mentions his relationship with Karl to a male Hawke. Which, although I don't agree with it and feel he should have mentioned it to female Hawke as well, is an argument that he's playersexual. So there is a little precedence in Bio handling playersexual differently from bisexual in romances.

Ah, I understand your point now. Fair enough.

 

Snip

It's all good, - I am sorry for being bitchy toward you in my previous post.

 

That's exactly the situation with Star Wars the Old Republic, they lied that about wanting to implement sexuality properly while in fact they fear the backlash of having gay romance in a T-rated MMORPG game considering straight males sometimes have 2 options to choose from. After the gay planet, all the romance subsequently are basically just all playersexual with Theron, Lana, and Koth. It's just minimum effort in a way that say, "see? we have it now so stop complaining". Too much for implementing different sexualities for that series. It just turns me off the game completely due to the patronizing, not even because they don't have gay romance in it.

 

There is a difference in waiting to implement something because they want to vs doing something just to fulfill a certain status quo. Games like Fire Emblem and Star Wars the Old Republic implement it make it very obvious they just want to appease the fans. Playersexual meaning that they allow people to romance anyone they want even when characters only express interest in the opposite sex, not that they only attract to just the protagonist. It's the case of the player's agency supercede everything else. I honestly feel like they choose Kaidan because most people have him dead and saves Ashley instead (from statistic), he's not a popular option, and you can kill him off at the start as well. There's no much to lose if he's the gay option. This can be further proven with the copy and paste job from femShep's data. This is what happen when developers choose to include something because their hands are forced instead of wanting to do it because they want to, and I don't think they would ever include gay options if no one has ever spoken up and also pointed out the lesbian options in the game. 

Word.

 

On the topic of them choosing Kaidan because players could kill him there's definitely something to that, especially since I don't even think they wanted to add M/M romances in ME3 did they? I recall seeing some quote floating around that supposedly came from Hudson talking about it.

 

I think if they genuinely wanted to trail blazers in ME3 they would have given James as the bisexual LI, or even the gay LI and made Steve the bisexual one. Boy I can only imagine how giant the explosion would have been from people's heads bursting had they done that.

[Prince Enigmatic]

I wouldn't mind the LGBT LIs being NPCs rather than companions in MEA, as long as the romance content was about equal to that of the squadmates. But since ME has less "in field" content for squadmates than DA does, I think it would be easier to implement. Especially if the NPCs are vital to the colony effort, while the squadmates are just the muscle.

 

 

I like this idea of a potential love interest NPC being somehow tied into the colonies. Like, after missions, you can return to an established colony to visit your love interest at that colony. It would certainly add a lot more to NPC romances. As long as there are no sub-plots involving other alien species invading said colony and kidnapping said love interest. 

 

 

 

It's all good, - I am sorry for being bitchy toward you in my previous post.

 

 

No problem, and you weren't don't worry 

[Shechinah]

Creating this meme taught me something. Apparently, all jests aside, lions are really open-minded when it comes to sex.

 

I believe black swans are known for sometimes forming male pairings and successfully raise eggs that they obtain either from theft or from temporary threesomes with female swans.   

 

It's interesting to see how many animals exhibit this behavior and why.
 

[vbibbi]

I believe black swans are known for sometimes forming male pairings and successfully raise eggs that they obtain either from theft or from temporary threesomes with female swans.   

 

It's interesting to see how many animals exhibit this behavior and why.
 

Those darn thieving gay swans!

[Shechinah]

Those darn thieving gay swans!

 
At least, it's only the thievery of unborn children to raise. That rank surprisingly pretty low on the list of screwed-up things that happens in the animal kingdom.

[mrjack]

Wow, the last few pages have been hard going.

 

Just want to say a few things.

 

Playersexuality is made up. It doesn't exist in real life and I have yet to see it in a BW game. Just as with the "gay for you" trope, which is the m/m fiction analogue, any use of it is rightly lambasted. Anyone who says "I'm not gay or bisexual but I love you even though we are both men" is in serious denial and clearly hates himself that he can't bring himself to to "label"" himself for what he is. It's not difficult. A man who loves or has sex with another man is gay or bisexual.

 

Thankfully, this doesn't describe Kaidan or any other bi LI in a Bioware game. This doesn't mean they don't need to diversify their portrayals of bi men beyond "mostly into women; sometimes into guys". But, I think they need to do this with all sexual minorities in their games and this will only happen over time and at the moment we don't really have a large enough sample size to make a judgement. I know bi guys that talk openly about their attraction to women but not so much their attraction to men; or guys that that will jump into bed with men non-stop but take things slowly and carefully with women. There are as many different types of bi guys as there are straight guys and gay guys. Kaidan, Zev, Anders, Fenris and Bull were all *accurate* portrayals but maybe a little too similar.

 

As for Kaidan's "sudden" bisexuality in ME3. Yes, it was a little surprising but people surprise you. My friend's grandma just came out as a lesbian and so did a guy I used to work with (as a gay man and not a lesbian obviously  ). One was in her late 60s and grew up in a time of sexual repression and the other, in his early 20s, in a time of sexual liberation. Sometimes people just aren't the people they, or anyone else, thought they were.

 

All that said, what the hell does it matter? In Kaidan's case it was a blatant case of the devs trying to turn around their "no gays" policy and I'm grateful for it. K wasn't retconned he was just developed more as a character. I didn't know Liara's was a quarter Krogan until ME3 but it was always the case.

 

As for the romance itself, I thought it was done well and I enjoyed it but there is always room for improvement. I can understand why some people think it was just quickly transplanted from the het version but it is what it is and 2010-2012 was a lot different politically than today. I don't think we'll see so much hesitation and hamfisting going forwards.

 

Back to the main topic (sorry), I hate to be a party pooper but there isn't an ME alien I would be particularly interested in romancing. I have to agree with Ashley when she says she "can't tell the aliens form the animals". If it has scales, hatched from an egg, a beak or claws or looks like a tree, I don't really see the attraction. Give me a hot human guy or a guy that looks like a human in face paint and I'll be all over that....so.... maybe a quarian if they don't turn them into slug people.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Anyone who says "I'm not gay or bisexual but I love you even though we are both men" is in serious denial and clearly hates himself that he can't bring himself to to "label"" himself for what he is. It's not difficult. A man who loves or has sex with another man is gay or bisexual.

Incorrect. There are sexual orientations besides homosexuality and bisexuality that can result in a male being attracted to a male. 

[rocklikeafool]

Incorrect. There are sexual orientations besides homosexuality and bisexuality that can result in a male being attracted to a male. 

No. Just go back to tumblr already.

[mrjack]

Incorrect. There are sexual orientations besides homosexuality and bisexuality that can result in a male being attracted to a male. 

 

Like?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Like?

Three that come to mind are pansexuality, demisexuality, and asexuality(you mentioned love as well instead of just sexually attracted). All three of those can have a male who is attracted, either romantically and/or sexually, to another male yet aren't homosexual or bisexual and don't neccesarily involve the person hating themselves or being in denial.  

[mrjack]

Three that come to mind are pansexuality, demisexuality, and asexuality(you mentioned love as well instead of just sexually attracted). All three of those can have a male who is attracted, either romantically and/or sexually, to another male yet aren't homosexual or bisexual and don't neccesarily involve the person hating themselves or being in denial.  

 

Those labels are fine if you want to get specific but a pan guy is still a bi guy and someone who is demi or ace is either straight, gay or bi as well. It really doesn't have to be more complicated than that. I find the whole idea that someone can reject the "gay" label distasteful. I'm not 100% gay but no-one really cares about specifics of my warped little mind and I'm just fine with people calling me "gay"... or "bi" if you want to be technically accurate. It doesn't help any of us to divide ourselves up like this.

[holdenagincourt]

Seriously, I find it ridiculous that these non-human LIs use gender as the hurdle they're not willing to cross - something about Shepard's personality is attractive to them regardless, since Shepard's a human, Tali and Garrus both have an entirely different DNA base, and no matter how it works, because both parties are different species, the... "equipment" won't be a match... But apparently, because Shepard is identifying as a particular gender, they won't cross THAT line? It makes no sense to me.

 

So yes, bring on the alien LIs for either gender PC!

 

I came here to say this.

 

In my view, my hope goes way beyond a "gaylien" romance and at the same time is more mundane. I would like romances and other interpersonal relationships written for a hypertechnological, fundamentally optimistic galaxy 200 years in the future to be open-ended and inclusive in a way that challenges the audience to expand its mind, rather than fulfills culturally hegemonic expectations.

 

By way of a casual example, the assumption that understandings of sexuality and gender in 2183 are both frozen in time and space circa 2012 North America and are applied bidirectionally by humans and aliens alike (bar the eternally youthful space seductresses who are model swaps of human women) very badly needs to be exploded.

[CuriousArtemis]

Playersexuality is made up. It doesn't exist in real life and I have yet to see it in a BW game. Just as with the "gay for you" trope, which is the m/m fiction analogue, any use of it is rightly lambasted. Anyone who says "I'm not gay or bisexual but I love you even though we are both men" is in serious denial and clearly hates himself that he can't bring himself to to "label"" himself for what he is. It's not difficult. A man who loves or has sex with another man is gay or bisexual.

 

I actually disagree kind of...? But I'm a proponent of "playersexual" love interests in video games. It's more like... I like imagining the characters and the romance a certain way. One playthrough I'm playing a bisexual male Hawke who romances Fenris, who is gay. In another playthrough, I'm envisioning Hawke as gay this time but Fenris is bisexual. The game lets me do this, so why not? I can create so many different kinds of stories that way. And really it doesn't fundamentally change Hawke or Fenris. 

 

I just like being able to take charge of the story, especially when it comes to romance. I particularly loved romancing Solas (of course had to mod it to do so with a guy) because I could easily headcanon that my inquisitor was asexual. I really, really like that. 

 

However, I also like having very much defined background characters. I'm sick and tired of the pantheon of straight couples that overshadow every game I've ever played, including BioWare games. I want to see more gay, lesbian, bi, and so on characters. 

 

I love being able to romance whoever I want in games like Skyrim. (Of course, me being the contrary sort, I always want to romance the unavailable ones... hello Brynjolf and Ulfric romance mods!) I suppose you could call everyone in Skyrim bisexual. However I don't think that's the case canonically. They're video game characters whose sexuality is fluid and player-controlled, just like almost every other aspect of the game. In the same way I sit down to write a story and decide to make a character straight, then midway through the story change my mind and make her bi. *shrugs* She's still the same character. I just came up with a great idea that involves her having a girlfriend. And maybe if I decided to reuse that character in another story, I'd make her lesbian, just because it works better in that story.

 

In short, they are characters, not real people... but that isn't to say representation doesn't matter because it does. So, it's a tricky line to walk. I'm just not fond of blanket statements.

[Battlebloodmage]

Yeah. Although, now we've had 4 NPC romances across the Bioware games and it's pretty even.

1 gay guy
1 lesbian
1 bisexual woman
1 straight guy

I wouldn't be too worked up if a gay guy was an NPC in the next game because it's rotating around a bit and we're all getting them.

To be fair, both teams are different, ME team doesn't care about gay characters but DA does since they have a gay writer and they go out of their way just to write an afterschool special for him. The next game, if they have the straight girl to be the NPC then we'll talk. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Those labels are fine if you want to get specific but a pan guy is still a bi guy and someone who is demi or ace is either straight, gay or bi as well. It really doesn't have to be more complicated than that.

 

Yeah I'm kind of this way, too, but hey, some people like their labels and receive strength and confidence from said labels, so, have at it.

[Prince Enigmatic]

 

I love being able to romance whoever I want in games like Skyrim. (Of course, me being the contrary sort, I always want to romance the unavailable ones... hello Brynjolf and Ulfric romance mods!) 

 

It was a rainy day in Riften when I first discovered I couldn't romance Brynjolf... 

[Prince Enigmatic]

 

I shouldn't complain too much about Skyrim actually... 

[CuriousArtemis]

 

I shouldn't complain too much about Skyrim actually... 

 

....Or the lovely lovely people who mod it for us