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Gaylien romance?


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#551
mrjack

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I actually disagree kind of...? But I'm a proponent of "playersexual" love interests in video games. It's more like... I like imagining the characters and the romance a certain way. One playthrough I'm playing a bisexual male Hawke who romances Fenris, who is gay. In another playthrough, I'm envisioning Hawke as gay this time but Fenris is bisexual. The game lets me do this, so why not? I can create so many different kinds of stories that way. And really it doesn't fundamentally change Hawke or Fenris. 

 

I just like being able to take charge of the story, especially when it comes to romance. I particularly loved romancing Solas (of course had to mod it to do so with a guy) because I could easily headcanon that my inquisitor was asexual. I really, really like that. 

 

However, I also like having very much defined background characters. I'm sick and tired of the pantheon of straight couples that overshadow every game I've ever played, including BioWare games. I want to see more gay, lesbian, bi, and so on characters. 

 

I love being able to romance whoever I want in games like Skyrim. (Of course, me being the contrary sort, I always want to romance the unavailable ones... hello Brynjolf and Ulfric romance mods!) I suppose you could call everyone in Skyrim bisexual. However I don't think that's the case canonically. They're video game characters whose sexuality is fluid and player-controlled, just like almost every other aspect of the game. In the same way I sit down to write a story and decide to make a character straight, then midway through the story change my mind and make her bi. *shrugs* She's still the same character. I just came up with a great idea that involves her having a girlfriend. And maybe if I decided to reuse that character in another story, I'd make her lesbian, just because it works better in that story.

 

In short, they are characters, not real people... but that isn't to say representation doesn't matter because it does. So, it's a tricky line to walk. I'm just not fond of blanket statements.

 

I understand what you're saying and appreciate you're desire to "control" the sexuality of characters for game play reasons. What you're asking for is many versions of the same character, each version being the most appealing depending on your playthrough.

 

As a game that you actively take part in, you can control so much of the world you play in. Very little is static in the game world and having this almost god-like ability to control the fates of the people in it is certainly enjoyable.

 

At some point though, we have to look at the characterisation of NPCs and give up that control so we can be told a story. In Skyrim, I could marry almost anyone but they didn't feel like real people beyond very shallow personalities so the trade-off for that freedom wasn't worth it to me.

 

That's not to say I'm necessarily against making all Lis bi (and calling the mechanic playersexual). LIs make up a very small portion of the game population so it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief. I just think we should just call them and treat them as what they are, which is bisexual people. They are not straight except for the player character which is what playersexual implies.

 

You obviously enjoy head canon and so do I to an extent but I also like to give up control and be taken on a ride. I like characters that are what they are and my character be dammed. I don't really like to "harden" Leliana or Alistair or choose between dark side/light side Jaesa in SWTOR. I'm not saying that you can't influence characters but having that direct control over who they are lessens them as individuals to me.


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#552
vbibbi

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I actually disagree kind of...? But I'm a proponent of "playersexual" love interests in video games. It's more like... I like imagining the characters and the romance a certain way. One playthrough I'm playing a bisexual male Hawke who romances Fenris, who is gay. In another playthrough, I'm envisioning Hawke as gay this time but Fenris is bisexual. The game lets me do this, so why not? I can create so many different kinds of stories that way. And really it doesn't fundamentally change Hawke or Fenris.

I am not sure what the difference in outcome is if playing as if Fenris was bi and in a same sex relationship versus if he were gay and in a same sex relationship. I understand that it would slightly change his identity, but the only noticeable difference I can think of would be his hooking up with Isabela, which wouldn't occur if he were locked into a romance.

 

If DA2 had a situation where the LI is tempted away by a third party there might have been a difference, as that person could be male or female for Fenris, but as it stands, I'm really not sure how allowing the character to be playersexual rather than bisexual has any difference.



#553
daveliam

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Also, count me in on the group of people who really don't mind all bisexual LI's.  I prefer the variety of sexualities approach, but I have no issues with 4 bisexual LI's.  In fact, given how much easier it is to implement, I see some strong reason why to go this route sometimes.  Just not all the time.  And, I agree with mrjack, it wouldn't be 'playersexual' in my opinion.  It's just four bisexual individuals and they are bisexual regardless of whether their sexuality comes up in the game or not.  As long as they are romanceable by both male and female PCs. 


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#554
CuriousArtemis

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I am not sure what the difference in outcome is if playing as if Fenris was bi and in a same sex relationship versus if he were gay and in a same sex relationship. I understand that it would slightly change his identity, but the only noticeable difference I can think of would be his hooking up with Isabela, which wouldn't occur if he were locked into a romance.

 

If DA2 had a situation where the LI is tempted away by a third party there might have been a difference, as that person could be male or female for Fenris, but as it stands, I'm really not sure how allowing the character to be playersexual rather than bisexual has any difference.

 

It could be that this is all a cover up to reveal my undying hatred of Fenris x Isabela :lol:



#555
CuriousArtemis

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Also, count me in on the group of people who really don't mind all bisexual LI's.  I prefer the variety of sexualities approach, but I have no issues with 4 bisexual LI's.  In fact, given how much easier it is to implement, I see some strong reason why to go this route sometimes.

 

imo the worst thing about the varieties approach is that inevitably the one you want is unavailable to you because of race or gender, and damn, then you're stuck being inundated with everyone else's happy fanfics, fanarts, blah blah blah etc. of the one you want with the "wrong" gender or race lol I'M NOT SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE REALLY I'M NOT.

 

;_;

 

I just know the only time I was ever really happy with all my options is when... I got all the options. a.k.a. DA2.


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#556
mrjack

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I just know the only time I was ever really happy with all my options is when... I got all the options. a.k.a. DA2.

 

I'm rarely happy with the options but I think I might just be picky. Just in BW games we've had Zev, Fenris, Anders, Dorian, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Theron and Koth and the only two I've been happy with are Kaidan and Theron. I would have liked Alistair maybe (because he's funny) and to flirt with Vega like Femshep can (because he's hot) but I've never been super jealous over the characters available to women (except Kaidan in ME1 because I already knew he would be bi in 3) especially if they're the super sappy Prince Charming types. If they had actually made Alistair bi and he tried to give me a single red rose, I would have strangled him with it. Well not really but it's creeping me out thinking about it.

 

I bet there are guys who would love that though.


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#557
Battlebloodmage

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I think the main reason why I call it playersexual instead of bisexual is that usually when you could romance them as any gender, their default gender is usually straight. To be fair, I don't see the difference between romancing someone as a guy or a girl. Garrus can say everything he said to maleShep and it's still the exact same romance, the character's personality doesn't change. Plus, it's more about developers cutting corners when the romance for bisexual is the exact same thing, they should have added some variety in term of romancing like some change dialogues or some changes in scenes 



#558
CuriousArtemis

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I'm rarely happy with the options but I think I might just be picky. Just in BW games we've had Zev, Fenris, Anders, Dorian, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Theron and Koth and the only two I've been happy with are Kaidan and Theron. I would have liked Alistair maybe (because he's funny) and to flirt with Vega like Femshep can (because he's hot) but I've never been super jealous over the characters available to women (except Kaidan in ME1 because I already knew he would be bi in 3) especially if they're the super sappy Prince Charming types. If they had actually made Alistair bi and he tried to give me a single red rose, I would have strangled him with it. Well not really but it's creeping me out thinking about it.

 

I bet there are guys who would love that though.

 

Yes the rose thing is ................. well I did begin a modded romance with Alistair and when that scene happened my Surana was sorta like, "Awww, that's cute..... you're a loser lol" :lol:

 

But I still would've liked the OPTION to romance him, considering how integral to the plot he is, and really, he is pretty adorable, and I do like romantic relationships. I would've also liked the option to romance Cullen, Solas, Blackwall, and Joker. Yeah Joker was available to no one but *heavy breathing* MShoker is so my OTP; as it is, their friendship almost eclipse my actual canon OTP of MShenko just because of how close they obviously are.

 

But yeah I've been more than content with Zevran, Fenris, Anders, and Kaidan. I have enjoyed all four of those guys. And I will throw in Isabela for my female Hawke. My super canon FemHawke romance.


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#559
Master Warder Z_

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 Yeah Joker was available to no one but *heavy breathing* 

 

Yuck.



#560
daveliam

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imo the worst thing about the varieties approach is that inevitably the one you want is unavailable to you because of race or gender, and damn, then you're stuck being inundated with everyone else's happy fanfics, fanarts, blah blah blah etc. of the one you want with the "wrong" gender or race lol I'M NOT SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE REALLY I'M NOT.

 

;_;

 

I just know the only time I was ever really happy with all my options is when... I got all the options. a.k.a. DA2.

I'm rarely happy with the options but I think I might just be picky. Just in BW games we've had Zev, Fenris, Anders, Dorian, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Theron and Koth and the only two I've been happy with are Kaidan and Theron. I would have liked Alistair maybe (because he's funny) and to flirt with Vega like Femshep can (because he's hot) but I've never been super jealous over the characters available to women (except Kaidan in ME1 because I already knew he would be bi in 3) especially if they're the super sappy Prince Charming types. If they had actually made Alistair bi and he tried to give me a single red rose, I would have strangled him with it. Well not really but it's creeping me out thinking about it.

 

I bet there are guys who would love that though.

 

Yeah, I've rarely been happy with the m/m options.  The only ones that I've really been happy with are Kaidan and Dorian.  Anders' story is a great one, even if I can't stand the character.  And Bull is.....okay, I guess.  But Zevran and Fenris do nothing for me.  I used to think that I was happy with Sky but he just doesn't hold up.  It's a little too "Are you sure you are gay?  Like, really gay?  And you aren't into those two hot girls?  They'll even make out with each other if you want?  No?  Okay, then I guess I'm interested too....."



#561
Battlebloodmage

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I'm rarely happy with the options but I think I might just be picky. Just in BW games we've had Zev, Fenris, Anders, Dorian, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Theron and Koth and the only two I've been happy with are Kaidan and Theron. I would have liked Alistair maybe (because he's funny) and to flirt with Vega like Femshep can (because he's hot) but I've never been super jealous over the characters available to women (except Kaidan in ME1 because I already knew he would be bi in 3) especially if they're the super sappy Prince Charming types. If they had actually made Alistair bi and he tried to give me a single red rose, I would have strangled him with it. Well not really but it's creeping me out thinking about it.

 

I bet there are guys who would love that though.

What you are against is what I love and want in a male romance. Something romantic and sappy. Notice how many of the male romance are either filled with dramas and angst or the relationship is very much like a friendship with sex. There is a lack of romantic scenes in general otherwise. I would love for the LI to give me flower and think of me, maybe not even a flower, maybe he found a toy that looks like me or something that remind him of me. It's these little things that lack in male/male romance in general, the romance in a romance. The guys I like are Theron, Kaidan, Cullen, Alistair, Danse, MacCready. These guys are all everyday guys. I hope they have someone like that in the next game. 


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#562
Robert Cousland

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Edit: Im bi myself, so I say, bring on the gay.



#563
vbibbi

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I'm rarely happy with the options but I think I might just be picky. Just in BW games we've had Zev, Fenris, Anders, Dorian, Bull, Kaidan, Steve, Theron and Koth and the only two I've been happy with are Kaidan and Theron. I would have liked Alistair maybe (because he's funny) and to flirt with Vega like Femshep can (because he's hot) but I've never been super jealous over the characters available to women (except Kaidan in ME1 because I already knew he would be bi in 3) especially if they're the super sappy Prince Charming types. If they had actually made Alistair bi and he tried to give me a single red rose, I would have strangled him with it. Well not really but it's creeping me out thinking about it.
 
I bet there are guys who would love that though.

  

If Alistair had given one of my male Wardens a single rose, they would have told him not to bother until he's able to pick a full bouquet.

I think the main reason why I call it playersexual instead of bisexual is that usually when you could romance them as any gender, their default gender is usually straight. To be fair, I don't see the difference between romancing someone as a guy or a girl. Garrus can say everything he said to maleShep and it's still the exact same romance, the character's personality doesn't change. Plus, it's more about developers cutting corners when the romance for bisexual is the exact same thing, they should have added some variety in term of romancing like some change dialogues or some changes in scenes


Just so I'm understanding your view, how would you classify DA2 Anders? His "default" male Hawke romance is gay and his "default" female Hawke is straight. Since he only ever mentions a relationship with Karl to male Hawke.

#564
Pasquale1234

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Those labels are fine if you want to get specific but a pan guy is still a bi guy


Except that the entire point of the pan designation is to acknowledge the fact that gender and sex are not simple binaries. There are trans folk in various stages of transitioning, genderqueer, intersexed, hermaphrodite, etc. people, too.
 

I actually disagree kind of...? But I'm a proponent of "playersexual" love interests in video games. It's more like... I like imagining the characters and the romance a certain way. One playthrough I'm playing a bisexual male Hawke who romances Fenris, who is gay. In another playthrough, I'm envisioning Hawke as gay this time but Fenris is bisexual. The game lets me do this, so why not? I can create so many different kinds of stories that way. And really it doesn't fundamentally change Hawke or Fenris.


I also prefer that LIs not be gender-gated.

I've really never understood the apparent need a lot of people have for each character to have some set, predefined sexuality. The only character whose orientation is of any concern to me is the one I want to romance.

Representation is great, but I'm not sure that either MEU or Thedas has an understanding of sexuality that exactly mirrors our own. In some ways, I sort of hope not - because I think our understanding of human sexuality is still in its infancy. And - since I value function over form and inclusiveness over... whatever might be gained by gender-gating, DA2's model is my favorite thus far.

#565
Robert Cousland

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If Alistair had given one of my male Wardens a single rose, they would have told him not to bother until he's able to pick a full bouquet.


Just so I'm understanding your view, how would you classify DA2 Anders? His "default" male Hawke romance is gay and his "default" female Hawke is straight. Since he only ever mentions a relationship with Karl to male Hawke.

 

*Throws a whole freaking flower garden at you*

 

Personally, I view Anders as bi.



#566
daveliam

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Your homophobia is showing.

 

Im bi myself, so I say, bring on the gay.

 

I'm not sure if I'm seeing where there's homophobia in that post.  Were you being serious or sarcastic?  I'm curious as to why you said this.



#567
Biotic Apostate

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Oh Sky. "You shot down those hot babes, brah! I'm getting a sudden gay tingling in my body! Care to investigate? Y/y"

 

I personally liked Anders, Kaidan, and Steve. Weird, because I thought the execution of m/m romances in ME3 was really weak. Neither Bull, nor Dorian did anything for me sadly. Maybe in Andromeda *fingers crossed*

Maybe let's skip the roses, but I'd like a happy, sappy romance. Kaidan was close, but I prefer to choose synthesis, so he does end up alone.


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#568
mrjack

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I think the main reason why I call it playersexual instead of bisexual is that usually when you could romance them as any gender, their default gender is usually straight. To be fair, I don't see the difference between romancing someone as a guy or a girl. Garrus can say everything he said to maleShep and it's still the exact same romance, the character's personality doesn't change. Plus, it's more about developers cutting corners when the romance for bisexual is the exact same thing, they should have added some variety in term of romancing like some change dialogues or some changes in scenes 

 

I agree that there should be differences and that an LI should acknowledge that I am a man in romance content. None of this gender neutral pronoun crap please.

 

Yes the rose thing is ................. well I did begin a modded romance with Alistair and when that scene happened my Surana was sorta like, "Awww, that's cute..... you're a loser lol" :lol:

 

But I still would've liked the OPTION to romance him, considering how integral to the plot he is, and really, he is pretty adorable, and I do like romantic relationships. I would've also liked the option to romance Cullen, Solas, Blackwall, and Joker. Yeah Joker was available to no one but *heavy breathing* MShoker is so my OTP; as it is, their friendship almost eclipse my actual canon OTP of MShenko just because of how close they obviously are.

 

But yeah I've been more than content with Zevran, Fenris, Anders, and Kaidan. I have enjoyed all four of those guys. And I will throw in Isabela for my female Hawke. My super canon FemHawke romance.

 

I don't hate Joker but he's a wise@ss and he's always got an opinion on everything. I tell him to shut the hell up whenever I get the chance. EDI can have him. I wanted a crack at Blackwall until I met him in game and found him to be a bit boring. Cullen is too earnest and stuffy. You can be proud and noble and still have an edge. I *thought* I was would totally be into Solas because he was voiced by Gareth David-Lloyd (Ianto, I love you) but he's just some bald-headed bag lady who talks down to me all the time.

 

The romances I've been disappointed I couldn't pursue are for my female characters. Ashley for Femshep and Cassandra for Femquisitor. I never did finish a FemHawke PT so I will try out Isabella at some point. I know it's a bit weird but all my characters have to be gay because all the characters in all the hundreds of other games I've played have been straight. 



#569
Steelcan

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Except that the entire point of the pan designation is to acknowledge the fact that gender and sex are not simple binaries. There are trans folk in various stages of transitioning, genderqueer, intersexed, hermaphrodite, etc. people, too.
 

I also prefer that LIs not be gender-gated.

I've really never understood the apparent need a lot of people have for each character to have some set, predefined sexuality. The only character whose orientation is of any concern to me is the one I want to romance.

Representation is great, but I'm not sure that either MEU or Thedas has an understanding of sexuality that exactly mirrors our own. In some ways, I sort of hope not - because I think our understanding of human sexuality is still in its infancy. And - since I value function over form and inclusiveness over... whatever might be gained by gender-gating, DA2's model is my favorite thus far.

And I'm gonna disagree, gated romances are often better than the ones that aren't.  Solas's and Cullen's are usually brought up as the standout romances, both are restricted.

 

But on a more meta level I prefer it because sexuality is not something that can be cut off firmly from all other traits of someone's personality it informs and is informed by a person's other experiences and personality.


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#570
Robert Cousland

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I'm not sure if I'm seeing where there's homophobia in that post.  Were you being serious or sarcastic?  I'm curious as to why you said this.

 

Dammit, I reblogged from the wrong person.

 

Ah well, fixed the post.



#571
Battlebloodmage

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If Alistair had given one of my male Wardens a single rose, they would have told him not to bother until he's able to pick a full bouquet.


Just so I'm understanding your view, how would you classify DA2 Anders? His "default" male Hawke romance is gay and his "default" female Hawke is straight. Since he only ever mentions a relationship with Karl to male Hawke.

Original intention for them was to be playersexual not bisexual. That's why Anders only mention Karl to maleHawke. He backtracked before making them all bisexual. I go with the original intention since that's what they think of while writing the characters. 



#572
Battlebloodmage

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And I'm gonna disagree, gated romances are often better than the ones that aren't.  Solas's and Cullen's are usually brought up as the standout romances, both are restricted.

 

But on a more meta level I prefer it because sexuality is not something that can be cut off firmly from all other traits of someone's personality it informs and is informed by a person's other experiences and personality.

Those romances wouldn't change if they're available to males. Maybe the reason why these romances stand out because the perception of these romances are only available to female. I don't remember the last time a gay romance is even sappy or romantic like that. Solas specifically was avoided because they don't want to make a deprived bisexual, something I honestly don't see since he's more misguided than outright evil, and there are other options to balance him out even if he's just pure evil. 



#573
daveliam

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Original intention for them was to be playersexual not bisexual. That's why Anders only mention Karl to maleHawke. He backtracked before making them all bisexual. I go with the original intention since that's what they think of while writing the characters. 

 

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of things about characters that are "original intention", but writers are able to change their original intention.  It's the benefit of being the writer.  I think that original intention clearly plays a role, but end product and their interpretation of that product really does trump original intention and our interpretations.


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#574
Master Warder Z_

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he's more misguided than outright evil

 

You can't get much worse then global holocaust but sure he ain't evil because he feels bad about it?

 

._.

 

Psychopathy is acting without conscience but there is no need for evil to be without it, immoral and depraved decisions can be done with reluctance, it doesn't change them from being outright monstrous. Baldy is evil, even he won't debate you on the morality of what he does because there isn't a defense for it.



#575
mrjack

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You're homophobia is showing.

 

What? I'm gay.

 

If you mean that I like to be treated like a stereotypical "man" in relationships, that's just my personality. I'm not really comfortable with the mushy stuff. Nothing wrong with wanting to be treated like a princess, it's just not my thing.

 

EDIT: Never mind, mistakes happen.

 

maybe he found a toy that looks like me or something that remind him of me

 

I could get on board with him carving a toy because it's more practical than flowers and show that he has a skill. If he just found it in a field or something, I'd be like "Why are you giving someone else's garbage?"