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Gaylien romance?


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#851
Battlebloodmage

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I bring this up because after seeing how stretched the word budget was for DA:I with so many companions and so many romance options I have come the preference of, that i would rather have fewer companions with deeper stories than lots of companions with very shallow stories. Yet fewer companions has obvious issues.

 

One of the issues is that romances, specifically LGBT romances have to serve two functions. One they have to be representation and provide the ability for people to romance the gender they want. This creates a dynamic that can cause problems within the LGBT community. First if you use any kind of representation formula you need a lot of characters that are romanceable because lets face it the world is diverse in who likes inny bits and who likes dangly bits. The more characters you add or the more romances you add the more development cost. And companies always try to reduce costs, Bioware tried to do the no set sexuality in DA2 and that created a huge backlash as people claimed it implied that was making a statement that sexuality isn't fixed. Or people got mad because it made every companion bisexual. So while it gave people the ability to snog the gender they wanted it upset people who wanted games to be more representative of the world.

 

Perhaps the problem was trying to use romance options to do both duties. What if you had people that are part of the LGBT community but they are not romance options like your second in command, the engineer, or whomever. They just members of the crew who happen to be non straight and you only know about their sexuality because of conversations about loved ones. When someone talks about their wife or husband by using these gender specific titles you have just identified their sexuality without saying...

 

"Hey Protagonist just wanted to let you know I'm [blank]."

 

"Err.. thanks... I guess? I didn't ask and don't really care so why did you need to just out of the blue tell me your sexuality?"

 

If games just had LGBT characters to do the representation heavy lifting and then had 4 romance options all "bi" two women and two men to give players choice on what gender they snog. Would that be a workable model? It would allow the protagonist to be whatever they wanted in terms of sexuality and because non romanceable characters would have set sexualities of Lesbian, Gay, Bi and/or Trans we would see the game's space populated by divergent peoples without having to create so many romance options.

 

Just a thought. i mean it is really easy for me to say this ideas works as a straight man because lets face it in terms of representation and romance options I am not under represented so maybe i just miss something obvious because of my frame of reference. So from the LGBT perspective, not that you are the lone spokesperson for the LGBT community, does this work? Is it a viable solution to lower costs while still giving everyone the option to snog who they want yet also providing a more realistic representation of the variety of sexualities that people have?

I guess many of the NPCs we encountered could have been LGBT. There are many gay characters and bi characters throughout the series like Wade and Herren, Branka and Hespith, Empress Celene and her servant, Krem, etc. I think usually people care about the romance more because it gets the most attentions. I don't care much about set sexuality. What I want more is how many options in relation to each other. I know that gay audience is not the majority, but whenever people said that all-bi or half the cast are LGBT as unrealistic, what they really mean is they want more options for themselves or less options for LGBT. Most of the people who complain about all bi options in DA2 are not even LGBT, the gay and lesbian people were actually happy that they have more than one option to choose from. DA2's complain mostly from the straight guys, and in particular, it was toward Anders' hitting on them. If given a choice, I want set sexuality because of how they handle set sexuality. In most of the games with Bisexuals, all the bisexuals are straight but with exception, you can see that with Zevran, Iron Bull, MacCready, Kaidan, etc. This is why I said Bioware has never done bisexuals, especially males, correctly. They're just straight guys that mention cats all the time, and only talk about attraction toward you as the protagonist. If they're truly bisexuals and instead of playersexual, I would want to see more mention of guys from bisexual guys. I like your options, 4 bis with representations from different groups. They have that throughout the series. ME series mostly only has lesbian couples, but nothing stop them from having LGBT NPCs talking about their loved ones. We heard conversations about a wife cheating on her husband with Asari, Nyreen and Aria, so there are lesbian couples exist in the game, and it can be organically incorporate into the game. They just don't have to make a big deal about it like with Kren where Iron Bull lectures you about trans or Dorian with the gay storyline. It feels "forced" if you try to bring attention to the issues instead of just having characters just have casual conversations that may mention their status like with Cortez and his dead husband, although his story is being defined by it a bit too much. All I can remember from him is that he has a dead husband, but I would have the same problem if he had a dead wife as well. I think overall, I like the way they handle lesbian characters much better, Samantha talks about how she likes EDI's voice, give very subtle hints about her sexuality, same as Sera, she has talks with Iron Bull about girls and stuffs like that. There was never any gay angst. I hope we see more of gay characters in the same vein as lesbian characters. 



#852
LiaraShepard

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I hope the story relevant characters will be bi or playersexual. 



#853
Jedi Comedian

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I hope the story relevant characters will be bi or playersexual.

Better if all LIs are, but I agree.

#854
Battlebloodmage

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Better if all LIs are, but I agree.

Depending on how many options they have, really. if there have 6 options, having set sexuality may give more varieties, but with 4, it's better for them to be bisexuals. It sucks that story relevant characters are often straight like Alistair, Morrigan, and Solas. Most of the games with romance are usually happening between a guy and a girl like Squall and Rinoa, but in Bioware games, I really want to tell a story between 2 guys (or 2 girls) that have them as the main focus of the game. I think it may be something Bioware should try next, having LIs (a guy and a girl) as the integrated part of the plot, but maybe have side romance outside of that. 


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#855
vbibbi

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I don't want any "playersexual" companions. That implies that the characters' orientations vary depending on the PC, rather than they are just bisexual. It's almost like the damn toggle people request where that (male) companion won't be into dudes as long as we play as a female PC.


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#856
Lightning-Lucan

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There will be gay romance i'm sure. If not, it would be odd.

 

 



#857
daveliam

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I don't want any "playersexual" companions. That implies that the characters' orientations vary depending on the PC, rather than they are just bisexual. It's almost like the damn toggle people request where that (male) companion won't be into dudes as long as we play as a female PC.

 

Agreed.  I absolutely want bisexual LI"s.  I absolutely don't want "playersexual" LI's.  And, to be honest, I'm pretty confident that we won't get "playersexual".  That is exactly how you defined it:  characters who change their sexuality to be available to the PC.  We've never had that in a Bioware game and i doubt we ever will.

 

But all bisexual?  Sure.  No issues with it.


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#858
Gothfather

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I guess many of the NPCs we encountered could have been LGBT. There are many gay characters and bi characters throughout the series like Wade and Herren, Branka and Hespith, Empress Celene and her servant, Krem, etc. I think usually people care about the romance more because it gets the most attentions. I don't care much about set sexuality. What I want more is how many options in relation to each other. I know that gay audience is not the majority, but whenever people said that all-bi or half the cast are LGBT as unrealistic, what they really mean is they want more options for themselves or less options for LGBT. Most of the people who complain about all bi options in DA2 are not even LGBT, the gay and lesbian people were actually happy that they have more than one option to choose from. DA2's complain mostly from the straight guys, and in particular, it was toward Anders' hitting on them. If given a choice, I want set sexuality because of how they handle set sexuality. In most of the games with Bisexuals, all the bisexuals are straight but with exception, you can see that with Zevran, Iron Bull, MacCready, Kaidan, etc. This is why I said Bioware has never done bisexuals, especially males, correctly. They're just straight guys that mention cats all the time, and only talk about attraction toward you as the protagonist. If they're truly bisexuals and instead of playersexual, I would want to see more mention of guys from bisexual guys. I like your options, 4 bis with representations from different groups. They have that throughout the series. ME series mostly only has lesbian couples, but nothing stop them from having LGBT NPCs talking about their loved ones. We heard conversations about a wife cheating on her husband with Asari, Nyreen and Aria, so there are lesbian couples exist in the game, and it can be organically incorporate into the game. They just don't have to make a big deal about it like with Kren where Iron Bull lectures you about trans or Dorian with the gay storyline. It feels "forced" if you try to bring attention to the issues instead of just having characters just have casual conversations that may mention their status like with Cortez and his dead husband, although his story is being defined by it a bit too much. All I can remember from him is that he has a dead husband, but I would have the same problem if he had a dead wife as well. I think overall, I like the way they handle lesbian characters much better, Samantha talks about how she likes EDI's voice, give very subtle hints about her sexuality, same as Sera, she has talks with Iron Bull about girls and stuffs like that. There was never any gay angst. I hope we see more of gay characters in the same vein as lesbian characters. 

 

 

Dorian's story feels forced because they tried to incorporate a contemporary problem into a fantasy setting where the views on sexuality are more progressive so this very particular issue just feels out of place. If Dorian was just a roguish character who couldn't be bothered doing his duty as a noble it would have been a great story. But the whole 'curing' aspect was a WTF moment. It was almost like they didn't have faith enough that a gay character could carry off the dashing Rogue who is more concerned with their own gratification than meeting family obligations. This is a pretty common literary theme so just switching things around and have it be a gay character would have spoken volumes yet instead we get a very odd companion story. I think Bioware just didn't have enough balls to make Dorian 'wrong' about his stance on not producing children as a noble, Dorian had to be the victim and he only had to be the victim because he was gay. And it isn't like we don't have real life historical cultures with these very same issues that could have been used as a guide either.

 

Oh there was a LOT of LGBT outcry over DA2, was it less that the Anders 'controversy' sure. This was probably the first time any AAA gay character was ever the initiator of a romance and people went apeshit. But I recall that Bioware was criticised by the LGBT community over da2 romances.

 

Where is representation the most important? With people we romance or in the characters we don't? Is it better that characters we romance be the symbol of X sexuality or is it better for non romanceable characters to be? I don't know the answers for obvious reasons.

 

Bar scenes with crew can be a great time to reveal sexuality as people going to a bar together have a tendency to scope out people they find attractive and nudge their colleagues and friends to take a look. And English being what it is with gender specific pronouns you can easily and accurately infer they are attracted to x gender without directly saying it.

 

If the 4 'bi' system is going to work you bring up a critical point at least one of the 'bi' males and one of the 'bi' females has to actually express desire for same sex relationships. So they are not as you put it straight but you are the exception. Hell they could even make the character gay but the player is the exception. The key I think you are saying is for not all the characters that are romanceable  to be in default hetro mode if they adopt such a system.



#859
SKAR

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We need everyone to be bisexual. That way no straight people are upset because the girl they are trying to romance is a lesbian or the ladies who's guy is gay and AMD vice versa for the LGBT people.

#860
SKAR

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We need everyone to be bisexual. That way no straight people are upset because the girl they are trying to romance is a lesbian or the ladies who's guy is gay and vice versa for the LGBT people.
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#861
Scarlett

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We need everyone to be bisexual. That way no straight people are upset because the girl they are trying to romance is a lesbian or the ladies who's guy is gay and AMD vice versa for the LGBT people.

Honestly this is a good idea. I found that method a bit too easy on DA2 but after playing DAI (female inquisitor) and wanted to romance Cassandra (not gay) and Dorian (gay) I have to say I don't want to live that again !

For example if they give us a straight female turian or a gay male turian, I'm going to stab myself XD


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#862
vbibbi

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Agreed.  I absolutely want bisexual LI"s.  I absolutely don't want "playersexual" LI's.  And, to be honest, I'm pretty confident that we won't get "playersexual".  That is exactly how you defined it:  characters who change their sexuality to be available to the PC.  We've never had that in a Bioware game and i doubt we ever will.

 

But all bisexual?  Sure.  No issues with it.

 

My understanding was that at the release of DA2, the term playersexual was coined and Bioware did not refute it or come out with an official response. Since neither Fenris or Merrill actually mention specific attraction to anyone of the same gender other than Hawke, and since Anders does not mention to a fem!Hawke that he was in a relationship with Karl, it could be inferred that those three companions could be viewed as playersexual rather than bisexual. It was only later that someone (Gaider?) came out and confirmed that all of them were bisexual.

 

It was this hesitant treatment of the issue which annoyed me. It felt like they were hedging their bets by allowing the players to see it however they wanted, so if someone wanted to see those three as straight, there was nothing in the game to contradict it and Bioware wasn't on record saying, "But no, they're all bisexual."

 

I'm probably reading too much into the situation. I should be more optimistic on a Friday afternoon :lol:



#863
Panda

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All LI's having same sexuality, bi or player, depending how you want to look at it, is probably easiest way to do LI's and it's not wonder that lot of games do that already. But I don't think it shows diversity of people, I think squad where everyone has different attributes- sexuality being one- is more defined than one where sexuality is all same and doesn't come up at all. So for this reason I'm more in side of different sexualities for LI's although I don't mind all same that much even if it sometimes goes more into playersexuality at times like in Saint Row Pierce says that: "I normally don't swing that way, but **** it, I'm down" to both gender of main characters. Like doesn't he swing in anyway? ^^;



#864
Battlebloodmage

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My understanding was that at the release of DA2, the term playersexual was coined and Bioware did not refute it or come out with an official response. Since neither Fenris or Merrill actually mention specific attraction to anyone of the same gender other than Hawke, and since Anders does not mention to a fem!Hawke that he was in a relationship with Karl, it could be inferred that those three companions could be viewed as playersexual rather than bisexual. It was only later that someone (Gaider?) came out and confirmed that all of them were bisexual.

 

It was this hesitant treatment of the issue which annoyed me. It felt like they were hedging their bets by allowing the players to see it however they wanted, so if someone wanted to see those three as straight, there was nothing in the game to contradict it and Bioware wasn't on record saying, "But no, they're all bisexual."

 

I'm probably reading too much into the situation. I should be more optimistic on a Friday afternoon :lol:

They could infer to either be straight or bi because Anders scene wouldn't happen with a female Hawke. Both Fenris and Anders can mention about having sex with Isabella. This is a problem with bisexual characters, it's always straight characters with exceptions. 


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#865
Hanako Ikezawa

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All LI's having same sexuality, bi or player, depending how you want to look at it, is probably easiest way to do LI's and it's not wonder that lot of games do that already. But I don't think it shows diversity of people, I think squad where everyone has different attributes- sexuality being one- is more defined than one where sexuality is all same and doesn't come up at all. So for this reason I'm more in side of different sexualities for LI's although I don't mind all same that much even if it sometimes goes more into playersexuality at times like in Saint Row Pierce says that: "I normally don't swing that way, but **** it, I'm down" to both gender of main characters. Like doesn't he swing in anyway? ^^;

They could always have the LIs be different orientations that just happen to allow attraction to both male and female. So instead of 4 bisexuals you can have say 2 bisexuals, 1 pansexual, 1 demisexual, or something. 



#866
Battlebloodmage

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Still, what do people feel about an all male alien race anyway? I feel like it would be a really good idea for them to try out and provide a foil to the last series. It may be too late for them to include anything right now, but it would have been cool if they had though. All male alien race existed in many other fictions. They could either be gay or bisexual like Liara as well for the first game.


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#867
VelvetStraitjacket

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Nah, I want a gay robot romance ;)


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#868
Jedi Comedian

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Nah, I want a gay robot romance ;)

"Please assume the position".
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#869
Shechinah

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Still, what do people feel about an all male alien race anyway? I feel like it would be a really good idea for them to try out and provide a foil to the last series. It may be too late for them to include anything right now, but it would have been cool if they had though. All male alien race existed in many other fictions. They could either be gay or bisexual like Liara as well for the first game.

 

Someone was discussing an idea they had in a thread but I lost track of the conversation along with the thread it was in which was a shame because it was interesting. 

 

I think an all-male race could work and could be a very neat idea depending on how they go about it: my suggestion would be to have them develop alongside a different race with whom they could interbreed with like the Iberian minnow or have them undergo a sequential hermaphroditism like protogyny or protogynous with it.  

 

Bonus if they speak with the same accent as Rishi' Slayer Three from the Old Republic because dat accent.

 

  
 



#870
Battlebloodmage

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Nah, I want a gay robot romance ;)

Fallout 4 allows you to romance robots, a corpse, and even incest. They don't really discriminate when it comes to relationship. lol



#871
VelvetStraitjacket

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Fallout 4 allows you to romance robots, a corpse, and even incest. They don't really discriminate when it comes to relationship. lol

 

Well, damn. And I thought Bioware was progressive.



#872
KirkyX

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Fallout 4 allows you to romance robots, a corpse, and even incest. They don't really discriminate when it comes to relationship. lol

Wait, incest? That one I missed.


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#873
Hanako Ikezawa

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Wait, incest? That one I missed.

Spoiler

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#874
Battlebloodmage

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Someone was discussing an idea they had in a thread but I lost track of the conversation along with the thread it was in which was a shame because it was interesting. 

 

I think an all-male race could work and could be a very neat idea depending on how they go about it: my suggestion would be to have them develop alongside a different race with whom they could interbreed with like the Iberian minnow or have them undergo a sequential hermaphroditism like protogyny or protogynous with it.  

 

Bonus if they speak with the same accent as Rishi' Slayer Three from the Old Republic because dat accent.

 

  
 

There are different ways they could do reproduction like budding as seen with the Namekian from Dragon Ball or just puking it out or something. They're aliens they don't have to follow the common reproductive ways after all. No stranger than reproduction by melting. They could change their gender, but then it wouldn't be an all male race, but it would be an interesting concept for a different type of alien species like with the Skrull from Marvel. 



#875
Jedi Comedian

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Fallout 4 allows you to romance robots, a corpse, and even incest. They don't really discriminate when it comes to relationship. lol

I just saw a video of Hancock's romance, he's surprisingly quite a sweet guy/ghoul LOL.
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