1472 réponses à ce sujet

[Dalinne]

I know this is contrary to popular opinion, but 'straight guys think it's hot' isn't a great thing for lesbians.  And there is a stigma against lesbians (like, actual ones that don't ever date men).   But lesbians aren't taken seriously enough to warrant the kind of reaction gay men get, since an idea a lot of people have is that they'll just end up with a guy eventually (b/c they're not really gay).

 

When you say things like:  "How many times do people said they're against homosexuality but they only mentioned gay guys? It's not that they're against homosexuality, they're against male homosexuality."  remember that some of these people don't even think female homosexuality exists.

Agree.

Lesbians are invisible plenty of times, for good and for the worse.

Two women holding hands? They must be friends. Two women kissing? Oh, they must be really friends (because that is something women do, right? Also... do you want a threesome? Of course you need one, you are kissing in front of me to make me horny... ¬¬ )

[vbibbi]

I know this is contrary to popular opinion, but 'straight guys think it's hot' isn't a great thing for lesbians.  And there is a stigma against lesbians (like, actual ones that don't ever date men).   But lesbians aren't taken seriously enough to warrant the kind of reaction gay men get, since an idea a lot of people have is that they'll just end up with a guy eventually (b/c they're not really gay).

 

When you say things like:  "How many times do people said they're against homosexuality but they only mentioned gay guys? It's not that they're against homosexuality, they're against male homosexuality."  remember that some of these people don't even think female homosexuality exists.

 

Not speaking for anyone else in this thread, but I don't see "straight guys think it's hot" is a positive thing for lesbians, just that it's a reason why female s/s relationships can seen to be more easily accepted in society. I agree that it's basically dismissing f/f relationships as male titillation rather than independent of male involvement, and that's not great.

[LiaraShepard]

But to be honest, it's not only because of titillating the straight gamer audience who think it's hot, but also because femal sexuality tends to be more inclusive towards same sex experiences even if the women aren't homosexual per se. there are studies which provide evidence that many more straight women describe themselves as "heterosexual MOST of the time" than men, which means that female behavior is less limited to a certain direction and more open to same sex experiences. I think that's also one of the reasons why lesbians don't get that much attention from straight females, whereas gays get lots of (negative) attention from straight males.

 

And not to be mistaken: I don't speak for everyone. There are still many females who have problems with female homosexuality. But in comparison to straight males who have problems with male homosexuality it's more accepted among them in total.

 

It also depends on the culture you live in. But I don't know any country where male homosexuality is allowed but female homosexuality isn't whereas there are some countries where only male homosexuality is legally punished (or more punished than female homosexuality).

 

Of course there are really bad countries where raping femals, especially homosexual ones, is widely accepted (even if not allowed), and that's really horrible, but I don't think Bioware wants to represent such countries in the world they created. The DAI and MASS Effect universe is far more progressive, so it's actually more comparable to liberal countries. Women have the same rights, have high positions...so I think they just compare homosexuality more with the countries the devs are born in and take this into account.

[LiaraShepard]

I would have prefer for gay relationship to move away from the gay discrimination. The society in Thedas is discriminatory because they make it so, targeting specifically gay males when they need to show how discriminatory they are toward homosexuality. They're using male homosexuality as a victim to tell a life lesson in a way. Is it for the sake of the homosexual players? Showing them how terrible life is for them in this fictional world they created? Is it in order to appear progressive, playing the white knights showing how discrimination toward gays is wrong? I know that they have good intention, but at the end of the day, they need to remember why they created those contents in the first place and who they are aiming those contents at. 

 

Yes, I wish the same. My male Ryder just wants to date a freaking awsome, confident and interesting looking guy who's okay with himself and without gay issues. It was actually pretty anoying that Dorians romance was more about his problems with being gay than about his feelings for you. Solas and Cullens romance felt much more romantic, especially the scene in the forest with Solas, where he finally kisses and leaves you. That was more emotional than all Dorian scenes together.... : (

[jlb524]

 

Of course there are really bad countries where raping femals, especially homosexual ones, is widely accepted (even if not allowed), and that's really horrible, but I don't think Bioware wants to represent such countries in the world they created. The DAI and MASS Effect universe is far more progressive, so it's actually more comparable to liberal countries. Women have the same rights, have high positions...so I think they just compare homosexuality more with the countries the devs are born in and take this into account.

 

I'm not sure why people think I'm asking for that kind of stuff.

 

I just find it interesting that there are some gay men who don't like the gay romances b/c they put too much focus on sexuality (Dorian and Steve).   I've heard the opposite complaint from some lesbians with the lesbian romances so far (Sera and Sam).  Sexuality or the simple fact that they are two women wasn't brought up at all and you could mod in a male character and the romance would play out fine as a heterosexual one.  I don't think these people necessarily want loads of drama/violence added to the story though.   I'm wondering if those that don't want sexuality brought up in a hypothetical ME:A gay romance character want them to be written as possibly interchangeable with a female character? (i.e., the romance still would work as 'straight' with mods).

[Catilina]

I'm not sure why people think I'm asking for that kind of stuff.

 

I just find it interesting that there are some gay men who don't like the gay romances b/c they put too much focus on sexuality (Dorian and Steve).   I've heard the opposite complaint from some lesbians with the lesbian romances so far (Sera and Sam).  Sexuality or the simple fact that they are two women wasn't brought up at all and you could mod in a male character and the romance would play out fine as a heterosexual one.  I don't think these people necessarily want loads of drama/violence added to the story though.   I'm wondering if those that don't want sexuality brought up in a hypothetical ME:A gay romance character want them to be written as possibly interchangeable with a female character? (i.e., the romance still would work as 'straight' with mods).

(I think, the romances with mods are really weird, so I did not have.)

[LiaraShepard]

I'm not sure why people think I'm asking for that kind of stuff.

 

I just find it interesting that there are some gay men who don't like the gay romances b/c they put too much focus on sexuality (Dorian and Steve).   I've heard the opposite complaint from some lesbians with the lesbian romances so far (Sera and Sam).  Sexuality or the simple fact that they are two women wasn't brought up at all and you could mod in a male character and the romance would play out fine as a heterosexual one.  I don't think these people necessarily want loads of drama/violence added to the story though.   I'm wondering if those that don't want sexuality brought up in a hypothetical ME:A gay romance character want them to be written as possibly interchangeable with a female character? (i.e., the romance still would work as 'straight' with mods).

 

Well, I think it's okay, if there are one or two sentences about the sexuality, as long as it's not the main theme of the romance arc, and I think that's the problem I had with Dorian... But one or two statements about (male and female) homosexuality between the characters isn't something I would bother about. In this case I'm all for mentioning female homosexuality too if lesbian gamers want this.

 

Though I have to say there are actually differences between male and female characters in the Leliana and Isabela romance. I don't think they are necessarily the same even though there are no explicit statements of homosexuality with female characters. With a female character, Leliana and Isabela seem to act "softer"... I don't know how to explain. They act differently from the interaction with a male character. And that's though there's nothing mentioned about their sexuality. You can adress differences between male and female characters in another way. It doesn't always have to be an explicit reference to sexuality. I actually thought it was well done with Isabela and Leliana. Plus, there is implicit mention of homosexuality in the Liara romance, where she says that gender doesn't have a meaning for her, because all Asari are monogendered. That's a special line that she doesn't have with male shep.

 

EDIT: There are also differences in the way Aria kisses you. If you're female she kisses you much longer and more passionate than if you're male. It seems more natural to her to kiss with a human female. And I think there are also some different dialogues in the Merrill romance when she meets you at your home and you're female. 

[LiaraShepard]

(I think, the romances with mods are really weird, so I did not have.)

 

I don't like romance mods either, because if I want to have a gay relationship with a straight guy he will always refer to me as a female, and the romance exklusive lines aren't spoken by my character. This feels weird... But since I play on console I don't care about mods anyway.

[vbibbi]

I'm not sure why people think I'm asking for that kind of stuff.

 

I just find it interesting that there are some gay men who don't like the gay romances b/c they put too much focus on sexuality (Dorian and Steve).   I've heard the opposite complaint from some lesbians with the lesbian romances so far (Sera and Sam).  Sexuality or the simple fact that they are two women wasn't brought up at all and you could mod in a male character and the romance would play out fine as a heterosexual one.  I don't think these people necessarily want loads of drama/violence added to the story though.   I'm wondering if those that don't want sexuality brought up in a hypothetical ME:A gay romance character want them to be written as possibly interchangeable with a female character? (i.e., the romance still would work as 'straight' with mods).

 

It's that I don't want a m/m relationship to solely be about being homosexual. I agree that f/f relationships could involve more references to the relationship being same sex, but IMO the f/f relationships to date have been better about portraying the relationship as between two people with personalities beyond being LGBT. While many of the m/m romances have revolved around the fact that it's a same sex relationship rather than having that be one element of the relationship.

 

Sera is a well rounded character, like her or not. She expresses same sex attraction, especially for Qunari women, so it's not like she doesn't mention her homosexuality at all. But there's a lot more to her character than that. Traynor is not quite as well rounded, being a smaller role in the last game of a trilogy, but what content she has does have some personality to her besides being gay. Her shower scene was cringe worthy, as was the Citadel hot tub scene for male!Shep, IMO, but most of her other content was good.

 

Dorian has a lot of character traits, but they are mostly through the lens of being gay. He's a Tevinter mage, he's for reform, he's witty and fashionable. All of that is overlaid by his sexuality. Sera isn't fighting for the little people who are lesbians, she is fighting for all little people. Dorian is about reforming Tevinter, but a lot of that is based on his personal experiences having to be closeted or else going against his family's wishes. Steve is in the same boat as Traynor that he doesn't have as much time to develop as a character, but other than his friendship with Vega and being an all around nice guy, his personality is basically being a widower.

[LiaraShepard]

I'm actually quite confident that they learned from Steve and Traynor and or next gay and lesbian romance will be more complex...though, I'm stll worried that the story relevant romances will be hetero again... but that's just my guess. If there aren't all characters bisexual, Bioware tends to make the straight characters the most important ones..... Solas *sighs*

[vbibbi]

I'm actually quite confident that they learned from Steve and Traynor and or next gay and lesbian romance will be more complex...though, I'm stll worried that the story relevant romances will be hetero again... but that's just my guess. If there aren't all characters bisexual, Bioware tends to make the straight characters the most important ones..... Solas *sighs*

 

Hopefully Steve and Traynor are one offs, because they were characters introduced in the last game of a trilogy and designed specifically to be same sex romance options. All other ME3 LIs had been in at least one of the previous games and had more time to develop their characters. I think both characters are good given the situation they were created in. I don't dislike Steve or Dorian, they just weren't my cup of tea for m/m relationships.

[Shechinah]

Dorian has a lot of character traits, but they are mostly through the lens of being gay. He's a Tevinter mage, he's for reform, he's witty and fashionable. All of that is overlaid by his sexuality. Sera isn't fighting for the little people who are lesbians, she is fighting for all little people. Dorian is about reforming Tevinter, but a lot of that is based on his personal experiences having to be closeted or else going against his family's wishes. Steve is in the same boat as Traynor that he doesn't have as much time to develop as a character, but other than his friendship with Vega and being an all around nice guy, his personality is basically being a widower.

 

I should note that I can see what people mean about some of his traits seeming stereotypical but I think the reason for some of Dorian's traits are tied to his upbringing as a Tevinter noble rather than his sexuality.

 

His witticism is likely because you have to be quick-witted in a social enviroment in Tevinter like you have to be in the social enviroment of Orlais.

 

We've seen in the comics that nobles of Tevinter wear very stylish and distinctive clothes such as with Maevaris and the Archon. Even today, fashion plays a part in social appearance and people's perception of a person so it is likely that it plays a large part in keeping appearance as well as reflecting status. Dorian being fashionable is like tied to that as is his interest in fashion. He might also think southern fashion is dull in comparison to what he is used to.

 

The same goes for other traits of his such as Dorian being a scholar. His upbringing has allowed him the privilege of learning to read and being able to acquire reading material as well as study because his position meant he had the time to do so as oppose to working in a field. This lead to him becoming a scientist.

 

I think that Dorian being a reformist is also because it would seem very odd that the Inquisition would allow him to stay if he'd been like the previous nobles of Tevinter we'd seen. I'm not bothered by Dorian's desire for reforms being partially motivated by what he experienced because of his sexuality since it make sense especially given that because of his upbringing, slavery has been normalized to him and the same has the caste system.  

 

I say partially motivated because I believe we've seen indications that Dorian may have wanted reforms regarding other things before before such as by how he says his father taught him to hate blood magic and that it was the resort of a weak mind. Blood magic is prevalent in Tevinter and that there is an unspoken acceptance or even expectation of it amongst nobles.

[Catilina]

[...]

One by one? All right.

The overall picture? Stereotypical. 

[Shechinah]

One by one? All right.

The overall picture? Stereotypical. 

 

All of them were traits I saw him as having developed as a noble because it was all traits, apart or together, that would make sense for a noble to have, in my opinion.
 

[Catilina]

All of them were traits I saw him as having developed as a noble because it was all traits, apart or together, that would make sense for a noble to have, in my opinion.
 

(Cassandra also a noble, and Sebastian too. There are many kind of noble.)

[LiaraShepard]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Dorian being fashionable and witty. The problem I have is that his romance is mostly about him being gay. Other than that he flirts with you a lot but there's no real emotional development (in my eyes). It just feels kinda blunt. I never believed him without questions that he truly loved me or that he's really interested in me. It seemed more like a: Oh, you're gay too? Well, in this case let's make out and see where it will end up. It wouldn't have a problem with it, if this would have been just the starting point... but at the end of his romance arc I still had this weird feeling with him. I actually like bitter sweet romances. But when Dorian told me that he has to leave me for a while, I felt nothing. On the other hand, when Solas told me, we can't be together, I felt a lot...it was much more emotional. 

[Shechinah]

(Cassandra also a noble, and Sebastian too. There are many kind of noble.)

 

It is true that there are many kinds of nobility which is why I tried to emphasis Dorian as a Tevinter noble since a Fereldan noble would have been brought up differently due to, amongst other things, cultural differences.

 

I do not think Cassandra and Sebastian are much indicative of the nobility of Nevarra and Starkhaven respectively.   

 

Cassandra and her brother was raised by their uncle Vestalus who was a member of the Mortalitasi as well as often absent. It seems suggested that neither was brought up to have anything to do with the nobility especially since I seem to recall Cassandra didn't see much of her country until she was older. I have to track down the dialogue she has about it to see if the information is correct.

 

Cassandra was twelve when her brother was beheaded in front of her and she was sent to the Seekers of Truth by her uncle.

 

I do not think Sebastian provides much insight into how a noble of Starkhaven behaves since his family considered him to be a disgrace to the family name specifically because of his behavior. The same with the Harimanns since they were under the influence of the desire demon Allure.   

[Catilina]

Personally, I don't have a problem with Dorian being fashionable and witty. The problem I have is that his romance is mostly about him being gay. Other than that he flirts with you a lot but there's no real emotional development (in my eyes). It just feels kinda blunt. I never believed him without questions that he truly loved me or that he's really interested in me. It seemed more like a: Oh, you're gay too? Well, in this case let's make out and see where it will end up. It wouldn't have a problem with it, if this would have been just the starting point... but at the end of his romance arc I still had this weird feeling with him. I actually like bitter sweet romances. But when Dorian told me that he has to leave me for a while, I felt nothing. On the other hand, when Solas told me, we can't be together, I felt a lot...it was much more emotional. 

I have not finished this thread, I do not know what the end. I just know: I love for example Alenko, Anders, Fenris romance, but I do not feel same with the Dorian romance. I don't hate, but not as good.

[LiaraShepard]

I have not finished this thread, I do not know what the end. I just know: I love for example Alenko, Anders, Fenris romance, but I do not feel same with the Dorian romance. I don't hate, but not as good.

 

I think the advantage of the DA2 romances is, that the story is parted into 3 acts, and in each act your companions have a personal quest for you that will develop over the course of the story. This leaves to the impression that there's more development between the characters which is something I missed in DAI. After Dorians sex scene there was nothing emotional or romantical anymore. He was just my boyfriend and that was it. There were some remaining flirt lines, but overall his romance story seemed to end with the sex scene. Plus, Anders was more story relevant and his romance felt more dramatic and intense, that's something I really like. That's why I prefered him over all other gay/bisexual male romance options in Dragon Age. Kaidan is great too, because there's also a lot of development with this character over the 3 games... and Fenris has lots of angst and hate which can also be very intensive. I agree with you, I like all the romance options you mentioned more than dorian too.

[Vasirr]

Volus on volus action. Just think of all the rolling.....     

 

That would be something.

[vbibbi]

I should note that I can see what people mean about some of his traits seeming stereotypical but I think the reason for some of Dorian's traits are tied to his upbringing as a Tevinter noble rather than his sexuality.

 

His witticism is likely because you have to be quick-witted in a social enviroment in Tevinter like you have to be in the social enviroment of Orlais.

 

We've seen in the comics that nobles of Tevinter wear very stylish and distinctive clothes such as with Maevaris and the Archon. Even today, fashion plays a part in social appearance and people's perception of a person so it is likely that it plays a large part in keeping appearance as well as reflecting status. Dorian being fashionable is like tied to that as is his interest in fashion. He might also think southern fashion is dull in comparison to what he is used to.

 

The same goes for other traits of his such as Dorian being a scholar. His upbringing has allowed him the privilege of learning to read and being able to acquire reading material as well as study because his position meant he had the time to do so as oppose to working in a field. This lead to him becoming a scientist.

 

I think that Dorian being a reformist is also because it would seem very odd that the Inquisition would allow him to stay if he'd been like the previous nobles of Tevinter we'd seen. I'm not bothered by Dorian's desire for reforms being partially motivated by what he experienced because of his sexuality since it make sense especially given that because of his upbringing, slavery has been normalized to him and the same has the caste system.  

 

I say partially motivated because I believe we've seen indications that Dorian may have wanted reforms regarding other things before before such as by how he says his father taught him to hate blood magic and that it was the resort of a weak mind. Blood magic is prevalent in Tevinter and that there is an unspoken acceptance or even expectation of it amongst nobles.

 

That's a good interpretation of his character. It was still a design decision on Gaider's part, though, to depict Dorian as a "stereotypical" noble Tevinter with the traits you list out. As you said in a previous post, Cassandra and Sebastian are not exemplars of the nobles of their homelands, yet Dorian was written to be an exemplar of his nationality and class, if not of the beliefs and attitudes. Dorian could have just as easily been written as not fashion forward or witty, and it was one more reason why he didn't feel at home in Tevinter. But instead we have a character who's defining reason for wanting to reform Tevinter is because of his father trying to change his sexuality. Yes, he came to Ferelden to investigate his former mentor, but I think the game is ambiguous in stating whether he used that as an excuse to flee his father or whether his father's actions were the last straw.

 

His entire character, to me, seems very intentionally written so as to depict issues of real life contemporary gay issues. This is the polarizing issue in his personal quest where some think it's about blood magic and family duty while others (including me) see it more as an expy for gay conversion therapy. DAI outright states that Tevinter is the only nation which has any real issue with public homosexuality. So of course when the gay male character is from Tevinter instead of any of the other countries, it's intentionally set up so that his background can go into how his sexuality was an issue back home.

 

His character could have been a witty fashionable Orlesian nobleman who wanted to reform the Game and not have any issue with his homosexuality. Or he could have been a noble Tevinter who didn't follow the stereotypes of his peers and that was a major reason why he wants change. But he was specifically written as a character who contains many of the real world stereotypes of gay men and whose backstory is about how his family doesn't accept his sexuality. It was very intentional and IMO ham handed.

[The Twilight God]

Hopefully Steve and Traynor are one offs, because they were characters introduced in the last game of a trilogy and designed specifically to be same sex romance options. All other ME3 LIs had been in at least one of the previous games and had more time to develop their characters. I think both characters are good given the situation they were created in. I don't dislike Steve or Dorian, they just weren't my cup of tea for m/m relationships.

I agree with you. Lesbians should be mistreated just as badly as gay men. Equality!!!

[dgcatanisiri]

Yeah, my problem with Dorian (as I've said before) is just how hamfisted and awkward his story feels in relationship with the rest of the Dragon Age universe that had been established to that point. Sure, we'd never sat down with a Tevinter nobleman before, the closest to that was Danarius, who we weren't exactly inviting to tea, but in the Thedas we had experienced, and not just in the games but also the expanded universe, the novels, the comics, there had been absolutely no indication that this was some kind of an issue. The closest we got to homophobia was Gamlen being gross, but that always came across as a reflection of 'Gamlen's a shitty person' not 'Thedas has homophobia.'

 

The fact that Dorian resorts to describing his homosexuality in the very purple prose-y 'I prefer the company of men' also makes it clear that Thedas lacks the words to distinguish this relationship. He doesn't even use a Tevene word that means 'gay' in the same vein as the f word. So three games, five novels, and three comic series in and this finally appears, when homosexuality has been involved in multiple parts of those, and opening with a Cousland Warden who has invited a same-sex suitor to their room in Origins getting cheered on about it by Fergus - for many, that was their introduction to Thedas's approach to homosexuality, that it didn't matter.

 

I mean, you can couch Dorian's quest in all this talk about it being a tale of betrayal and broken trust, it is still an explicit metaphor for conversion "therapy", a thing that is really only a thing for gay people. And it's very ham-fisted when the universe up to that point hadn't made any kind of an issue out of it. Up to the point that we walk into the tavern with Dorian to meet his father, we have no indication that there's any real concern about homosexuality in Thedas. The worst of it, most of us reasonably inferred, given the lack of comment on the matter, was that it was an issue for lineage, for continuing bloodlines. While this reveal about Tevinter can fit, it does so very awkwardly and does so mainly because it got shoved into place, not that it naturally grew out of the setting.

 

And honestly, I don't WANT to see homophobia like this in my games. There's been FAR too much of that in real life, as we have seen in the last few weeks. Homophobia is far too much a fact of life for gay people for me to want to see it included in games like this, games that I know I and many others play as an escape. It's one thing to go into a piece of media expecting it. But this came out of left field, and hit like a cartoon anvil in the process because not only was it unexpected, it flew against the universe that had been established to that point.