304 réponses à ce sujet

[ArabianIGoggles]

He's not a hater, he's pointing out the writing and lore problems of the whole concept.

The thanix canon was.  Precedent set.  It's in the lore.  

[KaiserShep]

So reverse engineering tech that violates known physics then building a fleet of ark ships with said tech and launching them all within a single year makes sense?

Yeah...no.

 

I can't say that this argument works when framed around the idea that it violates known physics, because lots of things in the MEU does that. Element zero itself is preposterous. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I do believe we have already shared, multiple times, over months prior, in all the various threads discussing the ark theory and Andromeda.

Reaper drives can reach Andromeda in 230 ish years, without needing to discharge - a calculation I first made in another thread.

A generation ship could make the journey at relativistic speeds in millennia.

Some combination of either with cryo stasis is likewise possible.

And the single most likely scenario, already hinted at via Bioware, is that they utilize a wormhole to get there - a fundamental concept from real life general relativity, and something that likely exists in nature.

None of these scenarios violate the lore. And none of them are DEM's, by definition, as other people here have pointed out to you. This is similar to the commonly held misconception that if something isnt mentioned in a story it is a "plot hole" (likewise false). You just dont like the move to Andromeda in the first place, I think.

We don't have or even understand Reaper Drives. This is established in ME3. 

 

At relativistic speeds it would take millions of years, not thousands. The ship would be dead before it ever got close. 

 

I said no Deus Ex Machinas. A wormhole suddenly appearing is a DEM, even if they can theoretically exist. 

 

No, if they had a logical set up of events that made it possible, I'd be fine with it. They just don't have a logical set up of events. 

 

 

 

The ark using technology that allows for FTL travel without drive discharge or refueling wouldn't require any retcons. The Reapers already possess that technology, and perhaps the Collectors did as well. By the time the Reaper War gets into full swing there are multiple wrecks to study and salvage. There is also a precedent already in the lore of the Council species reverse engineering Reaper tech, so its already established as being within the realm of possibility.

 

The other means is by having the ark zig zag between rogue star systems lying between the Milky Way and Andromeda, and using these systems to both drive discharge and skim Helium-3. The dark space between galaxies is not actually dark, but is filled with stars and star remnants that have been cast off from their original parent galaxies. As many as half of all stars in the universe may lie in the space between galaxies, rather than within them. Since the lore does not specify how often ships need to refuel or drive discharge while at FTL, the writers could declare that the ark was able to leap frog to Andromeda using these intergalactic stars and their orbiting planets as galactic rest stops, without lore conflicts. It would make the journey take much longer since the ark would not be taking a direct route to Andromeda, but wouldn't require the Council species reverse engineering any Reaper technology.

 

Lost in Space: Half of All Stars are Rogues Between Galaxies

Again, in the Codex of Mass Effect 3, out top scientists don't understand how Reaper drives even work, let alone how to replicate the results. They have less than six months. They weren't able to make the Thanix cannon in that time, and they understood how that worked. It is not possible in the timeframe allotted that they are able to do it. 

 

And I know that Dark Space isn't dark. I'm studying astronomy. The problem comes that they are nearly impossible to find in the vast space of dark space. And yes, the lore has specified the extent of conventional FTL. In order to have enough fuel, the ark would have to be ridiculously large. Too large to feasibly be constructed, especially since all the top minds and resources are going to the Crucible. 

 

 

Not really. The Council and all the people involved in this project thought this was the apocalypse and everyone was going to die so it does make sense for them to want a plan B.

Yes, really. 

They can have the idea all they want, but with how the situation was set up it is an impossible dream to realize in the restraints that exist. 

 

Non-discharging and non-refueling Reaper engines are already part of the lore.

And in ME3 we have no clue how the Reapers do it. 

 

 

I can't say that this argument works when framed around the idea that it violates known physics, because lots of things in the MEU does that. Element zero itself is preposterous. 

It violates the laws of physics in the Mass Effect world. So even with the people seeing all the stuff we see as breaking the laws of physics to us in real life being as understood as diffusion to them, the Reaper drives make no sense. 

[Kabooooom]

We don't have or even understand Reaper Drives. This is established in ME3.

At relativistic speeds it would take millions of years, not thousands. The ship would be dead before it ever got close.

I said no Deus Ex Machinas. A wormhole suddenly appearing is a DEM, even if they can theoretically exist.

No, if they had a logical set up of events that made it possible, I'd be fine with it. They just don't have a logical set up of events.


Again, in the Codex of Mass Effect 3, out top scientists don't understand how Reaper drives even work, let alone how to replicate the results. They have less than six months. They weren't able to make the Thanix cannon in that time, and they understood how that worked. It is not possible in the timeframe allotted that they are able to do it.

And I know that Dark Space isn't dark. I'm studying astronomy. The problem comes that they are nearly impossible to find in the vast space of dark space. And yes, the lore has specified the extent of conventional FTL. In order to have enough fuel, the ark would have to be ridiculously large. Too large to feasibly be constructed, especially since all the top minds and resources are going to the Crucible.


Yes, really.
They can have the idea all they want, but with how the situation was set up it is an impossible dream to realize in the restraints that exist.

And in ME3 we have no clue how the Reapers do it.



It violates the laws of physics in the Mass Effect world. So even with the people seeing all the stuff we see as breaking the laws of physics to us in real life being as understood as diffusion to them, the Reaper drives make no sense.

A) I meant thousands for the travelers. I'm not sure if you understand how relativity works. You can actually do a calculation that gets a ship to Andromeda in thousands of years with relativity. Hell, you can fly a ship across the entire diameter of the Milky Way, theoretically, within a single human lifespan using relativistic travel. Go ahead, do the calculation yourself before you object to it. I did, so I know you didn't.

B ) Again, that's not the definition of a DEM. Someone else already pointed this out to you so it doesn't bear repeating.

I seem to remember in all the prior Andromeda threads how vitriolic you were (along with others) that the game "couldn't possibly take place in Andromeda". Well, it is. And now that it is, are you similarly just objecting to the way we get there? Because it changes nothing. The game will still take place in a setting you dont like, so there's no way around it other than coming up with a reasonable solution on how to get there.

I challenged you awhile back to provide a reasonable solution to the problem. Myself and others have attempted many. I'm still waiting for yours.

[Ahriman]

So reverse engineering tech that violates known physics then building a fleet of ark ships with said tech and launching them all within a single year makes sense?

Yeah...no.

I don't recall anyone here talking about less than a year project. There are 3 (three) years between the moment Council knows about Reapers and " I never imagined this day would come."

[anddill]

The Asari knew for thousands of years. They had all the prothean tech hidden under the temple.

[Britishpride]

I was going to post something exactly like this! I was even going to post the same concept art! Although I hadn't connected the Asari Councillor which I think gives this theory more ammo. I also agree that the Citadel Council must of had a plan B, they couldn't have relied just on the Crucible and I think that Plan B launched when Thessia got attacked. It also fits what the developers say that the story takes place a long time after the original trilogy which would account for the travel time between Galaxies, even if they had an advanced FTL drive. Don't forget the Asari had direct access to a Prothean Beacon for a millennia to keep on top of the game, their scientists could have been uploading advanced technology for this "Ark" and the Ark could have been in development for years already if the Councillors thought it wise too after Sovereigns attack on the Citadel showed they were not the most powerful race out there. Hell they could have even found another Prothean beacon and stuck it on an "Ark" but that goes into wild speculation.

One final point that came to mind was the N7 characters' look on the newest trailer, the guy flicking through the galaxy map. Look at his armour, mainly the flap of cloth on his right shoulder. This gave me a "Quarian" vibe, years spent in space travelling from place to place, now relying on hand me downs and heavily customised bits of kit, relying on very limited resources. Food for thought. 

 

PS. Wild speculation: We will meet the Prothean refugees in Andromeda.

[Han Shot First]

 

Again, in the Codex of Mass Effect 3, out top scientists don't understand how Reaper drives even work, let alone how to replicate the results. They have less than six months. They weren't able to make the Thanix cannon in that time, and they understood how that worked. It is not possible in the timeframe allotted that they are able to do it. 

 

 

It isn't clear how long exactly the Reaper War lasts, and the war may have lasted longer than six months. In any case we are talking about a fictional piece of technology that we know nothing about. Attaching any time frame to how long it should take to study and replicate that technology is completely arbitrary.

 

The lore also seems to provide an easy out for the drive discharge problem. Space stations include their own facilities that allow them to discharge without entering a planet's magnetic field. The technology for drive discharging without entering a planet's magnetic field already exists. At most the galaxy would only need to reverse engineer the technology that allows the Reapers to travel great distances without refueling.

 

 

 

And I know that Dark Space isn't dark. I'm studying astronomy. The problem comes that they are nearly impossible to find in the vast space of dark space. And yes, the lore has specified the extent of conventional FTL. In order to have enough fuel, the ark would have to be ridiculously large. Too large to feasibly be constructed, especially since all the top minds and resources are going to the Crucible. 

 

 

Those stars are difficult to find for us only because of their great distance from Earth. That would be much less of an issue for a civilization that has the ability to traverse the entire Milky Way. They'd have a much clearer picture of what is outside our galaxy than we do currently.

 

The lore has never specified how often ships need to refuel or drive discharge. We only know that they need to do so periodically. Declaring that the ark couldn't travel between rogue stars, refueling on the way, is as arbitrary as stating that the galaxy can't reverse engineer Reaper technology in time. Being able to state that it couldn't be done with any degree of accuracy would require knowledge of how many stars lie between the Milky Way and Andromeda and where they are located, and knowledge of both the amount of fuel the ark is carrying, the rate at which the ark travels, and the rate at which its fuel is consumed. We know none of those things.

[Iakus]

I can't say that this argument works when framed around the idea that it violates known physics, because lots of things in the MEU does that. Element zero itself is preposterous. 

I'm not talking about RL physics though.  THe codex itself says the Reapers capabilities violate known physics.  And this is written from the perspective of a universe where eezo and such are a fact of life.

 

Thus the Reapers don't just violate out own physics, they violate the known physics of a fictional world.

[Iakus]

I don't recall anyone here talking about less than a year project. There are 3 (three) years between the moment Council knows about Reapers and " I never imagined this day would come."

Except Thessia falls out 2/3 of the way through the game, and the asari have been sitting out the alliance until then, focusing entirely on their own borders (Udina confirms this early on)  

 

But let's say it was unintentionally vague and it was three years:  that's...really not better.  We're still talking about tech that even the codex admits is space magic, mastering and copying it onto a fleet of ships that are meant to hold tens of thousands of people (at least) for centuries. In three years.

[JasonShepard]

Thing is, there really isn't another reasonable alternative for WHY the species of the Milky Way would want to go to Andromeda, rather than an ark contingency plan. The only other reason would be exploration and scientific curiosity, but given what must be required to make an intergalactic trip possible, it seems unreasonable that the galaxy would do it unless the game takes place in the far, far future and they left the Milky Way post reaper war.

And if that is the case, then it invalidates the out-of-game reason for moving to Andromeda in the first place: The ME3 endings.

 

I disagree somewhat. Then again, I'm firmly in the "I hope we left post-ME3" camp, so that probably doesn't surprise you

 

An intergalactic trip could be possible via some kind of ultra-relay, rather than by Ark. Who built the Ultra-relay and why? is a mystery that ME:A could then tackle as part of its plot. It also makes the exploration-and-scientific-curiosity motivation significantly easier to justify, since the Ultra-relay makes a visit to Andromeda far less of a resource investment than otherwise.

 

I also feel like you slightly contradicted your own argument: You argue that if we did leave post-ME3, then it must be ages afterwards to make an Ark-journey possible, yet you're also arguing that the most likely journey was pre-ME3-ending?

 

***

 

I do agree with you that, out-of-game, we've moved to Andromeda because of the ME3-endings. That much is obvious. I don't expect Bioware to ever say as much, but I'd also be very surprised if they ever tried to directly claim that it wasn't the case.

 

However, leaving post-ME3 doesn't invalidate that motivation.

 

Moving to Andromeda makes the consequences of the ME3-endings much easier to handle. Bioware can acknowledge which choice you made without having it affect everything in the game - since the main consequences are all back home. Synthesis is then the trickiest ending to handle, but Synthesis was also the ending with the vaguest consequences, which gives Bioware some much-needed flexibility on how to handle it.

 

At the end of the day, though, this is Bioware's choice and I heavily suspect they've already decided when we left, how, and why. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.

[Heimerdinger]

"Then I should go. Plans must be put in motion. Continuity of civilization has to be considered. I never imagined this day would come."

 

I never really payed much attention that line but after Andromeda was announced and hearing about the Ark theory, it really stuck out to me. Could she be talking about the ark?? Both Asari councilors say this by the way - the original councilor Tevos and the new councilor Irissa.

 

Still doesn't make any goddamn sense. After Thessia the situation degenerates fast.

 

Thessia - Sanctuary - Cronos - Priority Earth - End Game

 

The reapers where overrunning everything and all resources were going towards the Crucible. There is no time and resources to fool around with Arks at that point. All bets were on the Crucible.

[JasonShepard]

I'm not talking about RL physics though.  THe codex itself says the Reapers capabilities violate known physics.  And this is written from the perspective of a universe where eezo and such are a fact of life.

 

Thus the Reapers don't just violate out own physics, they violate the known physics of a fictional world.

 

Do you mind if I bring the Codex quote into this?

 

'Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws.'

 

I don't read that as "Reapers are Space Magic".

 

If something violates the known laws of physics, it doesn't mean that it's just done the impossible. It means that the known laws of physics are wrong. It means that there's an exception, or modification, to the laws of physics that the Reapers have somehow taken advantage of. In other words - the Reapers know the laws of physics better than we do.

 

That said, Iakus, I am in full agreement with you that the chances of the Citadel races somehow: figuring out that exception, using it to build an Ark, during the Reaper War, and keeping it all a secret from Shepard, is unlikely at best. Especially when all indications are that the Council genuinely did have their heads in the sand until the Reapers actually showed up.

[Ahriman]

 

 

to hold tens of thousands of people (at least) for centuries.

Hundreds of thousands, if we are trying to be realistic in terms of autonomous civilization.

The thing is humans and turians built 2 dreadnoughts each in three years, asari and salarians built not a single one. Again, race with largest known economy seemingly does nothing at the face of geth (reaper) invasion and when it hits they focus on self-defence, despite them knowing that they have no chance. There is always a bad writing, but if it's not, what asari and salarians were doing all this time?

[GalacticWolf5]

Do you mind if I bring the Codex quote into this?

'Reaper power sources seem to violate known physical laws.'

I don't read that as "Reapers are Space Magic".

If something violates the known laws of physics, it doesn't mean that it's just done the impossible. It means that the known laws of physics are wrong. It means that there's an exception, or modification, to the laws of physics that the Reapers have somehow taken advantage of. In other words - the Reapers know the laws of physics better than we do.

^^ This

[anddill]

Like a lot of people pointed out already: The Asari did know for like 40000 years and kept it secret. Maybe they had their own variant of Cerberus running for 1000 years?

[shepskisaac]

 

And in ME3 we have no clue how the Reapers do it. 

Then we will learn, c'mon. You understand perfectly that precedent (good or bad) was already set.

 

 

So reverse engineering tech that violates known physics then building a fleet of ark ships with said tech and launching them all within a single year makes sense?

Yeah...no.

I'm not saying reverse engineering Reaper tech is a good concept in itself, but it's been done already. Turians took Sovereign's gun and made their own version within a year lol. If someone has issues with it, they should argue it years ago when it happened in Mass Effect 2.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

A) I meant thousands for the travelers. I'm not sure if you understand how relativity works. You can actually do a calculation that gets a ship to Andromeda in thousands of years with relativity. Hell, you can fly a ship across the entire diameter of the Milky Way, theoretically, within a single human lifespan using relativistic travel. Go ahead, do the calculation yourself before you object to it. I did, so I know you didn't.

I didn't realize you meant for the people inside. I thought you meant just in the universe's time. 

 

B ) Again, that's not the definition of a DEM. Someone else already pointed this out to you so it doesn't bear repeating.

Yes it is. It is "a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty".

 

I seem to remember in all the prior Andromeda threads how vitriolic you were (along with others) that the game "couldn't possibly take place in Andromeda". Well, it is. And now that it is, are you similarly just objecting to the way we get there? Because it changes nothing. The game will still take place in a setting you dont like, so there's no way around it other than coming up with a reasonable solution on how to get there.

I challenged you awhile back to provide a reasonable solution to the problem. Myself and others have attempted many. I'm still waiting for yours.

My objections have always been because of how we would get there. I've said many times that if the ships left after the Reaper War it'd make perfect sense since we'd either have hundreds of thousands of Reaper drives available and years or decades to reverse-engineered them or we have our new Reaper buddies help us develop the technology. 

 

I've given solutions, and you and fellow Ark Theory supporters immediately handwaved them away. 

 

 

It isn't clear how long exactly the Reaper War lasts, and the war may have lasted longer than six months. In any case we are talking about a fictional piece of technology that we know nothing about. Attaching any time frame to how long it should take to study and replicate that technology is completely arbitrary.

 

The lore also seems to provide an easy out for the drive discharge problem. Space stations include their own facilities that allow them to discharge without entering a planet's magnetic field. The technology for drive discharging without entering a planet's magnetic field already exists. At most the galaxy would only need to reverse engineer the technology that allows the Reapers to travel great distances without refueling.

Yes it is. In London Shepard says to Tali:

"You remember how you felt when you landed on Rannoch? Now imagine it's not a story passed down by your people. Imagine you were there just a few months ago."

It's not arbitrary. We have a precedent for how long it takes for Reaper tech to be reverse-engineered. It took them 11 months to create the Thanix Cannon, and they knew how it worked. In ME3 the Codex states that they have no idea how Reaper drives work. 

 

 

Those stars are difficult to find for us only because of their great distance from Earth. That would be much less of an issue for a civilization that has the ability to traverse the entire Milky Way. They'd have a much clearer picture of what is outside our galaxy than we do currently.

 

The lore has never specified how often ships need to refuel or drive discharge. We only know that they need to do so periodically. Declaring that the ark couldn't travel between rogue stars, refueling on the way, is as arbitrary as stating that the galaxy can't reverse engineer Reaper technology in time. Being able to state that it couldn't be done with any degree of accuracy would require knowledge of how many stars lie between the Milky Way and Andromeda and where they are located, and knowledge of both the amount of fuel the ark is carrying, the rate at which the ark travels, and the rate at which its fuel is consumed. We know none of those things.

Not really. Once you leave the halo of the Milky Way and before you reach the halo of Andromeda, the stars would still be very difficult to locate. What's more, we don't need stars, we need planets. Either Jovian or Terrestrial. Using a star would melt the hull of the ship before we get close enough to discharge into it. It's why in our galaxy the civilizations don't do it. So if finding a massive ball of plasma is very difficult, finding a planet is exponentially more so. 

 

 

Then we will learn, c'mon. You understand perfectly that precedent (good or bad) was already set.

We don't have time to learn if this ship is to leave before the Crucible fires. 

[Iakus]

 

I'm not saying reverse engineering Reaper tech is a good concept in itself, but it's been done already. Turians took Sovereign's gun and made their own version within a year lol. If someone has issues with it, they should argue it years ago when it happened in Mass Effect 2.

 

They built scaled-down versions of a gun which already operated on known mass effect laws.  An engine that is specifically said to violate known physics is somewhat more complicated.

 

It would be like Henry Ford reverse engineering a modern Prius, Then Building a dozen of them in less than three years.  Heck that's probably still oversimplifying it.

[shepskisaac]

We don't have time to learn if this ship is to leave before the Crucible fires. 

Yes we have, Turians made new guns within a year without any urgency. ME3 takes months and there's hella lot more urgency

[Ahriman]

They built scaled-down versions of a gun which already operated on known mass effect laws.  

 

They've found this out only when they reverse engineered this stuff. So...

[In Exile]

They built scaled-down versions of a gun which already operated on known mass effect laws. An engine that is specifically said to violate known physics is somewhat more complicated.

It would be like Henry Ford reverse engineering a modern Prius, Then Building a dozen of them in less than three years. Heck that's probably still oversimplifying it.

If you're OK with that kind of reverse engineering - the sovereign's gun it - you shouldn't bat an eye on anything. Reverse engineering as they show it on sci-fi is dumb. Look again at Damascus Steel. We could only figure it out when our science was sufficiently advanced to be able to understand the theory behind it in full.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes we have, Turians made new guns within a year without any urgency. ME3 takes months and there's hella lot more urgency

Less time than they had with the Thanix + They have no idea how Reaper Drives works + All top minds working on the Crucible = Cannot logically be done before the Reaper War is over

[Han Shot First]

 

Yes it is. In London Shepard says to Tali:

"You remember how you felt when you landed on Rannoch? Now imagine it's not a story passed down by your people. Imagine you were there just a few months ago."

It's not arbitrary. We have a precedent for how long it takes for Reaper tech to be reverse-engineered. It took them 11 months to create the Thanix Cannon, and they knew how it worked. In ME3 the Codex states that they have no idea how Reaper drives work. 

 

 

There is no set number value to the word few. The phrase 'a few months' could refer to any number of months greater than one but probably less than twelve. Assigning the number six is arbitrary.

 

You're also operating under the assumption that the Council species didn't begin studying the relevant Reaper technology until at some point during the Reaper War, which may not have been the case. They may have already had parts of Sovereign related to that technology, with recovered tech from the Reaper War filling in the knowledge gaps. If they had a head start with Sovereign that would be three years working on reverse engineering technology related to Reaper propulsion.

 

There is also the Batarians, who had something like twenty years to study the Leviathan of Dis. With Batarian refugees, both civilian and military, flooding into Council space by the thousands, if not millions, how do we know that scans of the Leviathan of Dis may not have also found their way into Council space? 

 

 

Not really. Once you leave the halo of the Milky Way and before you reach the halo of Andromeda, the stars would still be very difficult to locate. What's more, we don't need stars, we need planets. Either Jovian or Terrestrial. Using a star would melt the hull of the ship before we get close enough to discharge into it. It's why in our galaxy the civilizations don't do it. So if finding a massive ball of plasma is very difficult, finding a planet is exponentially more so. 

 

 

We don't have time to learn if this ship is to leave before the Crucible fires. 

 

The stars would be located well before the ark sets out. Keep in mind that galactic civilization spans the entirety of the Milky Way, and that some of Council species have been space faring for thousands of years. In all that time no one built anything like our Hubble Telescope, except many times more powerful and located closer to the galactic edge, to gaze out at what is beyond our own galactic borders? The stars between the Milky Way and Andromeda should have been discovered and mapped many, many years before the Ark ever sets out...and likely before humanity ever joins the galactic community.

 

As for planets...I didn't mention them because I didn't have to. The majority of stars have orbiting planets. It should be assumed that stars have them unless demonstrated otherwise. Like the intergalactic stars themselves, most of these planets should be discovered long before an ark ever sets out, whether or not a leap frog course between them makes a journey to Andromeda possible. The same space telescope(s) mapping those stars should have noticed the telltale wobbles of orbiting planets. Some may have even had probes sent to them.