304 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

I don't know how the colonists are going to get to Andromeda, but they're not going to get there in an ark.  An ark would be filled with refugees and survivors of the Reaper War and the Reaper War is Shephard's story and Shephard's story is over.  An ark would imply continuity and Bioware isn't going to do that.  They're not going to have a bunch of settlers sitting around, getting drunk, and wondering what ever happened to those Reapers.  

I firmly believe that this will be taking place decades to centuries after arrival in Andromeda, so I doubt the settlers will be overly concerned with the galaxy they have never seen and more concerned with finding a permanent long term home for their population.

[Malanek]

There are so many non-insane reasons to have an Ark project set up. I understand that this forum seems to strongly favour the idea that the Ark is what gets people to Andromeda, but there's absolutely no way or reason that this needs to be the case.

 

Simply put, they can want to create some new form of colony Ark, for whatever reason (including a decade before the Reaper war and Shepard) and they get caught up with Precursor tech (or whatever). 

Non-insane reasons to have a galaxy spanning arkship capable of transporting thousands of people? When there are many garden worlds so much closer closer? And one where the arkship is sent before probes or scout ships? Could you list some? 

 

The big pre-cursor tech that is out of range is probably the propulsion method if it is to be less than a 1000 year journey. And that would have so many immensely valuable applications within the milky way that it wouldn't be kept secret.

 

To me, the emphasis on secrecy has to be about knowledge of the reapers. I'm open to a good argument about why they would be be building an arkship for no particular reason. But I can't even begin to think of one myself.

[DarthSliver]

Non-insane reasons to have a galaxy spanning arkship capable of transporting thousands of people? When there are many garden worlds so much closer closer? And one where the arkship is sent before probes or scout ships? Could you list some? 

 

The big pre-cursor tech that is out of range is probably the propulsion method if it is to be less than a 1000 year journey. And that would have so many immensely valuable applications within the milky way that it wouldn't be kept secret.

 

To me, the emphasis on secrecy has to be about knowledge of the reapers. I'm open to a good argument about why they would be be building an arkship for no particular reason. But I can't even begin to think of one myself.

 

its more likely they stumble on a wormhole when trying to go to an unexplored part of the Milky Way. I think that to be more likely if this escape is happening during the Reaper War as Commander Shepard is trying to stop it. 

[Heimdall]

Its been stated in game that the entire galactic economy is throwing all its resources into the crucible as they are willing to risk collapsing the economy in order for it to be finished.

Find me the quote that all the resources of the entire galaxy are being poured into this project, and prove that it isn't hyperboli, and I'll believe you.
 

This a project that's going to require hundreds of thousands of personal and massive amounts of resources there is no way it can stay secret from the likes of the shadow broker, cerberus and the STG.

Cerberus is hardly omniscient, they have the least extensive information network of the three. I wouldn't be surprised if the other two were in on it.
 

Then why didn't they use the resources to I don't know prepare for the arrival of the reapers. The idea of building an ark without even trying to prepare for the reapers is just defeatist, they're doing it because the galaxy isn't worth saving.

Because they're cautious sensible people that know defeating the Reapers conventionally isn't a realistic possibility? And yes, they know that. They know the reapers have wiped out civilizations much more advanced and more widespread than their own. And they probably concluded that a handful of years wouldn't be enough to make a difference.

 

Maybe it is "defeatist", but if you'd rather just ignore the most likely possibility then you are more than welcome to join Refusal Ending Shepard in watching the galaxy burn around you and everything perish because you were so concerned about being "defeatist".

[themikefest]

But your being saved by them

Just like they were trying to save whatever by not revealing that beacon earlier. Because of their crap, its possible a lot of lives were lost

But we saw Asari commandos on Earf

The only commando's I saw was that one in the cutscene before getting vaporized

[Malanek]

its more likely they stumble on a wormhole when trying to go to an unexplored part of the Milky Way. I think that to be more likely if this escape is happening during the Reaper War as Commander Shepard is trying to stop it. 

I personally think a far better way is a wormhole opens up and swallows a bunch of ships after the crucible is fired, and then closes. The entire point of the crucible is to generate a massive amount of energy, which is exactly what a wormhole needs. All the pieces needed were already built into the ME3 story.

 

I don't like the idea of just happening to run in to a wormhole which exists for no apparent reason. Does it then just close for no reason? Otherwise the galaxies would be linked which I think is a bad idea assuming the story wants the galaxies isolated from one another.

 

Of course then it wouldn't be an arkship at that point. It would be a bunch of soldiers trapped in Andromeda and having to establish a new base there.

[DarthSliver]

I personally think a far better way is a wormhole opens up and swallows a bunch of ships after the crucible is fired, and then closes. The entire point of the crucible is to generate a massive amount of energy, which is exactly what a wormhole needs. All the pieces needed were already built into the ME3 story.

 

I don't like the idea of just happening to run in to a wormhole which exists for no apparent reason. Does it then just close for no reason? Otherwise the galaxies would be linked which I think is a bad idea assuming the story wants the galaxies isolated from one another.

 

Of course then it wouldn't be an arkship at that point. It would be a bunch of soldiers trapped in Andromeda and having to establish a new base there.

you bring the Star Trek fan out of me. It could be like the Wormholes in Star Trek where one end is stable(Andromeda Galaxy) and by dumb luck it opened up on the fleeing fleeting in the Milky Way. Not giving them time to be able to pull back and swallowed them whole. 

[themikefest]

If firing the crucible produced the wormhole causing a lot of the ships to be caught in it, wouldn't that mean we would know what ending was picked? Just before it fires and the ships get the retreat order, green, red or blue can be seen

[Drone223]

Find me the quote that all the resources of the entire galaxy are being poured into this project, and prove that it isn't hyperboli, and I'll believe you.
 

Straight from the codex

 

"The Mars Archives describe a superweapon that the Alliance has named the Crucible, which exploits the technology of mass effect relays. Beyond the basic principles, however, researchers know little about how the weapon actually works.

 

One popular theory suggests that since relays can transfer matter and energy across the galaxy with little regard for distance, it may be possible to create a weapon for which range is barely a factor. Duplicating the advanced science used to build the relays has proven difficult, however. If the Crucible were completed, the challenge would become tuning the weapon to kill a Reaper halfway across the galaxy without inflicting unthinkable levels of collateral damage.

 

What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."

 

 

Cerberus is hardly omniscient, they have the least extensive information network of the three. I wouldn't be surprised if the other two were in on it.

 

 

Cerberus has proven to be very good with information they'd noticed something as big as an ark project. The shadow broker has no obligation to keep the ark project secret if there is a benefit to sharing information of its existence than the shadow broker will do so. The STG would present its existence to the council and keep in mind that Anderson during ME2 could be the human councilor so he would never keep such a project secret from Shepard.

 

 

Because they're cautious sensible people that know defeating the Reapers conventionally isn't a realistic possibility? And yes, they know that. They know the reapers have wiped out civilizations much more advanced and more widespread than their own. And they probably concluded that a handful of years wouldn't be enough to make a difference.

 

The reapers lost their biggest advantage which was using the citadel to get to the galaxy which is a huge game changer. They could used to the time to fortify themselves in preparation for their arrival.

 

 

Maybe it is "defeatist", but if you'd rather just ignore the most likely possibility then you are more than welcome to join Refusal Ending Shepard in watching the galaxy burn around you and everything perish because you were so concerned about being "defeatist".

 

Refusal Shepard is an idiot not a defeatist and the ark should only be used when all means to defeat the reapers have failed. It shouldn't be used if there is still a chance to stop them.

[felipejiraya]

I'll just say this is a really good thread, thoughtful debate with good arguments between the two sides. 

[The Elder King]

I don't know how the colonists are going to get to Andromeda, but they're not going to get there in an ark.  An ark would be filled with refugees and survivors of the Reaper War and the Reaper War is Shephard's story and Shephard's story is over.  An ark would imply continuity and Bioware isn't going to do that.  They're not going to have a bunch of settlers sitting around, getting drunk, and wondering what ever happened to those Reapers.

Bioware isn't necessarily going to cut off continuity with the past. They Even hinted At some familiar faces being present some months ago.

[Heimdall]

Straight from the codex
 
"The Mars Archives describe a superweapon that the Alliance has named the Crucible, which exploits the technology of mass effect relays. Beyond the basic principles, however, researchers know little about how the weapon actually works.
 
One popular theory suggests that since relays can transfer matter and energy across the galaxy with little regard for distance, it may be possible to create a weapon for which range is barely a factor. Duplicating the advanced science used to build the relays has proven difficult, however. If the Crucible were completed, the challenge would become tuning the weapon to kill a Reaper halfway across the galaxy without inflicting unthinkable levels of collateral damage.
 
What is clear is that the Crucible's construction is a massive effort, drawing resources from throughout explored space. Staggering financial costs have been disregarded in the common effort to create something, anything, that can stop the Reapers."

You failed to prove your point. It's a given that the Crucible's costs would have been "staggering", but nothing you've quoted suggests all the financial resources in the galaxy or precludes the idea that another less resource intensive project could have been constructed.  Especially if that construction took place mostly in the three years before the Reaper invasion.
 

Cerberus has proven to be very good with information they'd noticed something as big as an ark project. The shadow broker has no obligation to keep the ark project secret if there is a benefit to sharing information of its existence than the shadow broker will do so. The STG would present its existence to the council and keep in mind that Anderson during ME2 could be the human councilor so he would never keep such a project secret from Shepard.

Not really, sure they've gotten the occasional plot-convenient tidbit here and there but the Illusive man was running a relatively small organization prior to mass-recruiting indoctrinated thralls. They were good, but not STG good and not Shadowbroker good. Certainly not good enough to uncover something if the other two were trying to cover it up.

Maybe they kept Anderson out of the loop for that very reason. Maybe he disapproved and they told him they'd closed the book on it and the "Reapers" while they were really going forward. And I can't emphasize this enough, we're talking about something a hundred times less resource intensive than the Crucible's construction. The two aren't comparable.
 

The reapers lost their biggest advantage which was using the citadel to get to the galaxy which is a huge game changer. They could used to the time to fortify themselves in preparation for their arrival.

They lost a convenience, they weren't reliant on it. They've seen what Sovereign can do, it tore through the Citadel's defenses and would have destroyed the alliance fifth fleet too were it not for some weird feedback shock from Shepard destroying Saren.
 
 

Refusal Shepard is an idiot not a defeatist and the ark should only be used when all means to defeat the reapers have failed. It shouldn't be used if there is still a chance to stop them.

I never meant to say s/he was, but s/he did make a stupid decision on principle, which describes not having a backup plan for fear of being "defeatist".  I'm pretty sure the Ark was plan A, because they believed stopping the Reapers was extremely unlikely.  Then Shepard brought forth the Crucible plans and they made it an act of last resort, which is why they would have made final preparations and launched after Thessia, the lowpoint of the war when all hope seems lost.

[Paridave]

Bioware isn't necessarily going to cut off continuity with the past. They Even hinted At some familiar faces being present some months ago.

True, but they've hinted at so much over the years.  Per the Andromeda website, this game is " taking place far away from and long after the events of the original trilogy," so any familiar face would need to have survived the Reaper war, which brings up the canonization issue and they're not going to touch that.

[Arcian]

If the Council did create an ark in some desperate attempt to save all these different civilizations and races, it would make sense for them to create the Ark in the Citadels image.

With what money? They were bleeding the entire galactic economy dry just funding the Crucible, add to that the general cost of war (particularly against a foe as destructive at the Reapers) and it should quickly become obvious to everyone with more than two brain cells that they couldn't possibly fund the construction of an Arkship.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You failed to prove your point. It's a given that the Crucible's costs would have been "staggering", but nothing you've quoted suggests all the financial resources in the galaxy or precludes the idea that another less resource intensive project could have been constructed.

On the Spectre terminal on the Citadel, you get this message:

 

This financial report is for top-level embassy access only. According to financial estimates from First Irune Investment Trusts, a division of Elkoss Combine, the Citadel races cannot sustain the cost of the war effort for more than one year. Although military spending has stimulated certain market sectors, shortages and rationing in other areas has depressed the financial system. Civilian discretionary spending has fallen except in entertainment areas like escapist vids or drinking. First Irune is borrowing heavily to provide funds for key functions across the Citadel, but if the war does not end within the next year, galactic financial collapse is inevitable.

 

So the economy is on the verge of collapse with just the Reaper War and the Crucible Project. Building a giant ark or a fleet of arks that are capable of intergalactic travel would doom the galaxy's infrastructure. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

True, but they've hinted at so much over the years.  Per the Andromeda website, this game is " taking place far away from and long after the events of the original trilogy," so any familiar face would need to have survived the Reaper war, which brings up the canonization issue and they're not going to touch that.

Not really. There are characters throughout the trilogy that survive no matter what. 

[AresKeith]

True, but they've hinted at so much over the years.  Per the Andromeda website, this game is " taking place far away from and long after the events of the original trilogy," so any familiar face would need to have survived the Reaper war, which brings up the canonization issue and they're not going to touch that.

 

Familiar faces can easily be that races from the trilogy are also returning

[Heimdall]

On the Spectre terminal on the Citadel, you get this message:

This financial report is for top-level embassy access only. According to financial estimates from First Irune Investment Trusts, a division of Elkoss Combine, the Citadel races cannot sustain the cost of the war effort for more than one year. Although military spending has stimulated certain market sectors, shortages and rationing in other areas has depressed the financial system. Civilian discretionary spending has fallen except in entertainment areas like escapist vids or drinking. First Irune is borrowing heavily to provide funds for key functions across the Citadel, but if the war does not end within the next year, galactic financial collapse is inevitable.

So the economy is on the verge of collapse with just the Reaper War and the Crucible Project. Building a giant ark or a fleet of arks that are capable of intergalactic travel would doom the galaxy's infrastructure.

You mean, with just the Reaper War, the report makes no note of the Crucible's impact. This report is only on the cost of the war effort, the actual fighting, not the Crucible project. If you are going to arbitrarily decide to include the Crucible project in this, I can just as arbitrarily include an Ark project, again, a vastly smaller endeavor.

And again, since nobody seems to be paying attention, most of this expenditure would have occurred before the Reapers even arrived.

[Drone223]

Not really, sure they've gotten the occasional plot-convenient tidbit here and there but the Illusive man was running a relatively small organization prior to mass-recruiting indoctrinated thralls. They were good, but not STG good and not Shadowbroker good. Certainly not good enough to uncover something if the other two were trying to cover it up.
 

Cerberus had an operative inside an STG base on Sur'kesh I'd say they're just as good as the other two.

 

 

Maybe they kept Anderson out of the loop for that very reason. Maybe he disapproved and they told him they'd closed the book on it and the "Reapers" while they were really going forward.

 

Except he's part of the council so they'd have to share it with him otherwise they shouldn't bother agreeing with Shepard with having him on the council in the first place.

 

And I can't emphasize this enough, we're talking about something a hundred times less resource intensive than the Crucible's construction. The two aren't comparable.

 

Its still a large scale regardless, since the people building it will have to.......

 

1. Recruit the manpower to build the thing.

2. Get the resources to build it and the ships needed to collect and deliver them.

3. Have enough resources to set up a colony and defend it.

4. Make sure the thing can stay in FTL non-stop for a few centuries.

5. Have the means to repair anything that is damaged/fatigued during FTL.

6. Be able to deal with the static build up from constant FTL.

 

So its going to be very demanding in resources since there can be no room for error, its not going to be as small as you think it could be.

 

They lost a convenience, they weren't reliant on it. They've seen what Sovereign can do, it tore through the Citadel's defenses and would have destroyed the alliance fifth fleet too were it not for some weird feedback shock from Shepard destroying Saren.

 

The fleet was caught by surprise when sovereign attacked the citadel, if they knew sovereign was coming and prepared accordingly the situation may have been different.

 

 

I never meant to say s/he was, but s/he did make a stupid decision on principle, which describes not having a backup plan for fear of being "defeatist".  I'm pretty sure the Ark was plan A, because they believed stopping the Reapers was extremely unlikely.  Then Shepard brought forth the Crucible plans and they made it an act of last resort, which is why they would have made final preparations and launched after Thessia, the lowpoint of the war when all hope seems lost.

 

No the ark was never a plan A it would be just fleeing the galaxy because they can't be bothered trying to do anything to save it or prepare the galaxy for the arrival of the reapers. The crucible was plan A because it provided a means to defeat the reapers. By the time Thessia had fallen everyone one was already committed to the crucible and the war was nearing its climax not to mention Shepard got a lead on Horizon which would eventually lead them to the VI needed to find the catalyst. Not to mention if the asari shared the existence of the VI on their home world the war would've finished a lot faster and the ark wouldn't be needed. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You mean. With just the Reaper War, the report makes no note of the Crucible's impact. This report is only on the cost of the war effort, the actual fighting, not the Crucible project. If you are going to arbitrarily decide to include the Crucible project in this, I can just as arbitrarily include an Ark project, again, a vastly smaller endeavor.

The Crucible Project is part of the war effort. It is a superweapon being created to defeat the Reapers. Not counting it would be like not counting the Manhattan Project in World War 2 as part of the WW2 war effort. 

[Heimdall]

Cerberus had an operative inside an STG base on Sur'kesh I'd say they're just as good as the other two.

Even if we were to take that at face value, ignoring that Mordin or Padok Wiks had already leaked the information to the Krogan and the ways Cerberus could have intercepted or gathered the information from there, there's no getting around that Cerberus has far fewer resources than either, except maybe in ME3, when they're rather busy being evil-stupid and looking for ways to make Control work. At that point, I doubt the Illusive Man would have cared even if he found out.
 

Except he's part of the council so they'd have to share it with him otherwise they shouldn't bother agreeing with Shepard with having him on the council in the first place.

You aren't really that naive are you? Since when have politicians only done what they're supposed to do?

Its still a large scale regardless, since the people building it will have to.......
 
1. Recruit the manpower to build the thing.
2. Get the resources to build it and the ships needed to collect and deliver them.
3. Have enough resources to set up a colony and defend it.
4. Make sure the thing can stay in FTL non-stop for a few centuries.
5. Have the means to repair anything that is damaged/fatigued during FTL.
6. Be able to deal with the static build up from constant FTL.
 
So its going to be very demanding in resources since there can be no room for error.

Large scale, maybe, but still nowhere close to the scale of the Crucible.

The fleet was caught by surprise when sovereign attacked the citadel, if they knew sovereign was coming and prepared accordingly the situation may have been different.

Sovereign barely paid attention to the Alliance ships while it was attached to the Citadel, and it still tore them apart in one shot. They couldn't even take down its barriers.

Hell, it flew right through a turian cruiser without a scratch.

No the ark was never a plan A it would be just fleeing the galaxy because they can't be bothered trying to do anything to save it or prepare the galaxy for the arrival of the reapers. The crucible was plan A because it provided a means to defeat the reapers. By the time Thessia had fallen everyone one was already committed to the crucible and the war was nearing its climax not to mention Shepard got a lead on Horizon which would eventually lead them to the VI needed to find the catalyst. Not to mention if the asari shared the existence of the VI on their home world the war would've finished a lot faster and the ark wouldn't be needed.

The Crucible was plan A only after they knew it existed, at which point they moved it to plan B. Before that, conventional victory was a hopeless cause.

[Heimdall]

The Crucible Project is part of the war effort. It is a superweapon being created to defeat the Reapers. Not counting it would be like not counting the Manhattan Project in World War 2 as part of the WW2 war effort.

Fine, then you have to include the Ark Project as well.

[Drone223]

Even if we were to take that at face value, ignoring that Mordin or Padok Wiks had already leaked the information to the Krogan and the ways Cerberus could have intercepted or gathered the information from there, there's no getting around that Cerberus has far fewer resources than either, except maybe in ME3, when they're rather busy being evil-stupid and looking for ways to make Control work. At that point, I doubt the Illusive Man would have cared even if he found out.
 

Cerberus has several major corporations under its control even before ME3 as well as sympathizers in the Alliance and if TIM found out about the ark he'd definitely want someone inside to keep an eye on it and possibly ensure the continuation of his work/ideals.

 

You aren't really that naive are you? Since when have politicians only done what they're supposed to do?

 

 

Naive no, but Anderson would be furious that he wasn't told about something as important as an ark project especially when they aren't even trying to come up with something to stop the reapers. It would also make the council even more cowardly then they already are.

 

 

Large scale, maybe, but still nowhere close to the scale of the Crucible.

 

I'd still be large enough that rumors of its existence would spread.

 

 

Sovereign barely paid attention to the Alliance ships while it was attached to the Citadel, and it still tore them apart in one shot. They couldn't even take down its barriers. Hell, it flew right through a turian cruiser without a scratch.

 

Reaper shields can be brought down with concentrated fire, and the alliance by the time they attack sovereign would've taken some losses from the geth even more if the saved the DA.

 

The Crucible was plan A only after they knew it existed, at which point they moved it to plan B. Before that, conventional victory was a hopeless cause.

 

They didn't need a conventional victory they just needed something that could stop the reapers, the fact they wouldn't even bother to try and find something and/or prepare themselves for the reaper's just shows that the ark project is built upon defeatism.

[Malanek]

Large scale, maybe, but still nowhere close to the scale of the Crucible.

This will never be proven, but I would say is almost certain to be larger. With the Crucible they are building from a blueprint. With an arkship they have to completely figure out how to do it themselves.

[themikefest]

Naive no, but Anderson would be furious that he wasn't told about something as important as an ark project especially when they aren't even trying to come up with something to stop the reapers. 

If he's furious about that, he may want to look in the mirror. He along with the rest of the ME1 characters made no effort at all to find a way to stop the reapers after the SR1 was destroyed