720 réponses à ce sujet

[DuskWanderer]

It fascinates me to no end how, when you can create any color of character, people still whine that it's bad the default is a color of people they hate. I wonder why a fictional person's color bothers them so much. 

[Panda]

It fascinates me to no end how, when you can create any color of character, people still whine that it's bad the default is a color of people they hate. I wonder why a fictional person's color bothers them so much. 

 

Representation.. having always white character as default.. thinking whiteness as norm... discrimination and racism. I think these themes are part of trail of thought and why people would like to see more non-white default characters.

[DuskWanderer]

Representation.. having always white character as default.. thinking whiteness as norm... discrimination and racism. I think these themes are part of trail of thought and why people would like to see more non-white default characters.

If you can make whatever you want, how is it representation? Personally, I see white as a much better way to work out a character creator: I can see lines on the face (like scars) and other facial details much clearer on a bright background. 

 

By forcing representation, it seems to me like they are guilty of the very racism they claim to be against. But I find for people with those trains of thoughts, they think it's impossible for people of color to be racist.  

[SnakeCode]

If you can make whatever you want, how is it representation? Personally, I see white as a much better way to work out a character creator: I can see lines on the face (like scars) and other facial details much clearer on a bright background. 

 

By forcing representation, it seems to me like they are guilty of the very racism they claim to be against. But I find for people with those trains of thoughts, they think it's impossible for people of color to be racist.  

 

That's because they use the SocJus definition of racism, which is 'Power + Privilege' (the SocJus definition of sexism is the same as well.) As opposed to the actual definition of racism. 

[aoibhealfae]

The study of representation of race and gender in video games and the abstract : The results show a systematic over-representation of males, white and adults and a systematic under-representation of females, Hispanics, Native Americans, children and the elderly.

 

and the characters that Bioware used for marketing : 

 

 

At first glance, you wouldn't know that they're all just commercial placeholder for characters that was customizable and gender neutral. But in terms of representation, these people represent the human ideals and the standard for the game... which coincidentally skewed to a very specific demographic.

 

Its not about hating on a demographic. Its just people being critical and discussing about the need to change the standardized norm for their protagonists. And honestly, I rather MEA focus on the companions and make the protagonist ambiguous until they show a proper gameplay. DAI did good with that.

[DuskWanderer]

Sounds like an incredibly forced definition, like you're actively seeking to be persecuted. 

[SnakeCode]

Sounds like an incredibly forced definition, like you're actively seeking to be persecuted. 

 

That's exactly the point. It allows those kinds of people to be as racist and sexist as they want, with a ready-made excuse for when someone inevitably calls them out on it. You see, only the powerful and privileged can be racist or sexist. Under those rules White people = oppressor, non-whites = oppressed. Men = oppressor, women = oppressed. Therefore, people who aren't white can't be racist (especially to white people) and women can't be sexist to men. They can still be sexist to other women though because internalized misogyny (it's complicated.)

[Toasted Llama]

If anyone can point me to tutorial/guide on how to create PoC Shepards or inspirations for a PoC Shep, that would be awesome.

 

 

I think Bioware should add more than just hairstyles fit for PoC, like more options for facial structures, especially eyes, cheekbones, noses and mouths. I'm always struggling a bit to create unique looking faces, especially of other races besides caucasian as lots of shapes feel so similar.

[Indigenous]

http://politicalblin...ican-americans/

http://ase.tufts.edu...Sommers2011.pdf

 

I don't think its realistic to believe Bioware - a mostly white male company - will go that extra mile to appeal to different groups. Remember Vivienne? Ever wondered why her parents were not brought up in conversation or why she was bald?

 

Also, as the study shows, white people believe there is more anti-white bias than there is anti-black bias. There are people in here who somehow think its racist to want more representation for other ethnic identities, which is just more proof of that.

[SnakeCode]

http://politicalblin...ican-americans/

http://ase.tufts.edu...Sommers2011.pdf

 

I don't think its realistic to believe Bioware - a mostly white male company - will go that extra mile to appeal to different groups. Remember Vivienne? Ever wondered why her parents were not brought up in conversation or why she was bald?

 

Also, as the study shows, white people believe there is more anti-white bias than there is anti-black bias. There are people in here who somehow think its racist to want more representation for other ethnic identities, which is just more proof of that.

 

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Context is important. I think how people phrase it makes a huge difference. People saying "I'd like to see so-and-so being represented more in games" isn't the same as asking for less white people, for example. Worryingly it seems like we're seeing a great deal of the latter and less of the former on the net recently, and not just in the gaming community. It's spreading throughout academia, politics as well as other places. 

[Dunmer of Redoran]

People want more representation for the player character but also want a voiced protagonist. Pick one! When you have to sexes and several races, that's way too much potential dialogue for them to handle.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I don't think its realistic to believe Bioware - a mostly white male company - will go that extra mile to appeal to different groups. Remember Vivienne? Ever wondered why her parents were not brought up in conversation or why she was bald?

 

I'm confused by this. Most characters parents were not mentioned, and  she was bald because Bioware apparently couldn't get nice looking hair in the game, so they gave us 8 bald options, the remainder being crew cuts or other odd short styles.

 

And bigotry is wrong regardless of who is the victim or who is the perpetrator.

[DaemionMoadrin]

It fascinates me to no end how, when you can create any color of character, people still whine that it's bad the default is a color of people they hate. I wonder why a fictional person's color bothers them so much. 

 

Most games these days have several presets for each color and you can create your own, too.

 

Even old games like KotOR had asian and african presets.

[Panda]

People want more representation for the player character but also don't want a voiced protagonist. Pick one! When you have to sexes and several races, that's way too much potential dialogue for them to handle.

 

I don't think characters race, in terms of skin color/ethnicity, has much to do with dialogue.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

That's exactly the point. It allows those kinds of people to be as racist and sexist as they want, with a ready-made excuse for when someone inevitably calls them out on it. You see, only the powerful and privileged can be racist or sexist. Under those rules White people = oppressor, non-whites = oppressed. Men = oppressor, women = oppressed. Therefore, people who aren't white can't be racist (especially to white people) and women can't be sexist to men. They can still be sexist to other women though because internalized misogyny (it's complicated.)

 

Yes, because racism and sexism apparently only happens in the US, or "white majority" countries to those people.

 

As much as I agree with you, do we really need to have this conversation on this board? Seems like the wrong place for it.

 

Bioware should make more effort in being inclusive, but at least make it make sense. Don't just throw in a few black skinned characters and call it a day. Develop a nation and culture for different ethnicities. I'm thinking the Redguards in Elder Scrolls games. Also, Humans come in more skin tones (and facial features) than "White" and "Black", but Bioware only focuses  on those two because (I assume) their target audience is mostly made up of those two. I'd like to see actual East Asian features in the next game.

[Panda]

Yes, because racism and sexism apparently only happens in the US, or "white majority" countries to those people.

 

As much as I agree with you, do we really need to have this conversation on this board? Seems like the wrong place for it.

 

Bioware should make more effort in being inclusive, but at least make it make sense. Don't just throw in a few black skinned characters and call it a day. Develop a nation and culture for different ethnicities. I'm thinking the Redguards in Elder Scrolls games. Also, Humans come in more skin tones (and facial features) than "White" and "Black", but Bioware only focuses  on those two because (I assume) their target audience is mostly made up of those two. I'd like to see actual East Asian features in the next game.

 

Well DA has Rivaini that has dark-skinned people and Tevinter as well. Still missing East Asian looking human ethnicity though.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

People want more representation for the player character but also don't want a voiced protagonist. Pick one! When you have to sexes and several races, that's way too much potential dialogue for them to handle.

 

When you say "don't want", did you really mean "want"? If not, your comment makes no sense. In fact either way it makes no sense. Voice acting can be done by anyone, unless you are suggesting krogans and turians and elves and dwarves have to be voiced only by real members of those species.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Well DA has Rivaini that has dark-skinned people and Tevinter as well. Still missing East Asian looking human ethnicity though.

 

Right, but Barras and Vivienne never say they are of Rivaini heritage, do they? It would be like Varric having no ties to Orzammar.

 

In any case, Mass Effect shouldn't have this issue as they have all of humanity to draw on.

[Evamitchelle]

Right, but Barras and Vivienne never say they are of Rivaini heritage, do they? It would be like Varric having no ties to Orzammar.

 

In any case, Mass Effect shouldn't have this issue as they have all of humanity to draw on.

 

Vivienne does have Rivaini heritage (see David Gaider's post here), but I'm not sure if that's ever brought up in-game. When you ask her where she came from she'll tell you she was born in Wycome, in the Free Marches (though it's really close to both Antiva and Rivain). 

[Heimdall]

Right, but Barras and Vivienne never say they are of Rivaini heritage, do they? It would be like Varric having no ties to Orzammar.

I think Viviene mentions it actually, but she was born in the Free Marches and makes the point that heritage/birthplace is rarely relevant when you grow up in the Circle.

[Toasted Llama]

Right, but Barras and Vivienne never say they are of Rivaini heritage, do they? It would be like Varric having no ties to Orzammar.

 

In any case, Mass Effect shouldn't have this issue as they have all of humanity to draw on.

 

Some people consider it either racist or rude to ask PoC living in a western country for their "heritage", so it could be that Bioware isn't going to point out the "heritage" of every PoC living in Ferelden/Orlais/wherever, unless they recently moved. Or perhaps only characters you're well acquainted with.

[Panda]

Right, but Barras and Vivienne never say they are of Rivaini heritage, do they? It would be like Varric having no ties to Orzammar.

 

In any case, Mass Effect shouldn't have this issue as they have all of humanity to draw on.

 

Not ingame I think. However Isabela and Duncan who both have darker skins are Rivaini, well Duncan is half.

[General TSAR]

Some people consider it either racist or rude to ask PoC living in a western country for their "heritage", 

Rude sure, but how is it racist? It's genuine curiosity.

[Dirgegun]

I would personally love if we had more PoC companions/crew members but keep the helmet on the protagonist representative. Seeing the protagonist is supposed to be the character we make, I like the idea of not having a particular look made into the default. If they're 'our' character, then let the advertisement help keep that illusion maybe?

 

If we have to have a default, though, it would be grand to get away from the white dudebro. 

 

The CC should include more PoC presets for us to build on too, honestly. :/

[Indigenous]

I'm confused by this. Most characters parents were not mentioned, and  she was bald because Bioware apparently couldn't get nice looking hair in the game, so they gave us 8 bald options, the remainder being crew cuts or other odd short styles.

 

And bigotry is wrong regardless of who is the victim or who is the perpetrator.

Ah, so you probably did not know that Dorian's father wanted to have him fixed... I could also mention something about Cassandra, Sera, Varric, Iron Bull. It also interesting that Cole, Solas and Blackwall all have good reasons for not mentioning their parents.

 

Did I say bigotry was right regardless of who is the victim or who is the perpetrator? That was random.

 

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. Context is important. I think how people phrase it makes a huge difference. People saying "I'd like to see so-and-so being represented more in games" isn't the same as asking for less white people, for example. Worryingly it seems like we're seeing a great deal of the latter and less of the former on the net recently, and not just in the gaming community. It's spreading throughout academia, politics as well as other places. 

You are looking for a way to play the victim card in place where such a play would be illogical. Does this 'the net' come with a study or article?

 

This isn't the first time people have been labelled racist for wanting more representation in games.