Countless times, man... countless times.
I'm surpised I don't wake up at night, screaming.
This is the foremost of many reasons I never want to play ME2 again.
I never want to sit through that intro again. Even now, I can watch the whole goddamn thing in my head.
Why would I go looking for it? Anyway, I maintain that most people got the wrong impression because of the poor thread title, which belies the innocence of the request. Then some racist came on whining about white men.
If you're gonna dismiss a claim because it doesn't correspond to what you've seen, it'd be better to make sure you actually have seen enough to form an accurate impression. And yes, mistaken assumptions is exactly the problem with a lot of 'anti-SJWs", they see someone say 'I'd like a female protagonist' and immediately assume they must hate all men.
If you're gonna dismiss a claim because it doesn't correspond to what you've seen, it'd be better to make sure you actually have seen enough to form an accurate impression. And yes, mistaken assumptions is exactly the problem with a lot of 'anti-SJWs", they see someone say 'I'd like a female protagonist' and immediately assume they must hate all men.
when its phrased in such a way as to imply that there is an inherent problem with male protagonists then it does become at the least provocative
when its phrased in such a way as to imply that there is an inherent problem with male protagonists then it does become at the least provocative
People are going to be accused of that regardless of the way it's phrased, that's kind of my point. For example take the "no overly sexualized characters" thread. The title doesn't mention women, the OP is talking about both men and women, there's 3 disclaimers in the OP saying "I don't care about being politically correct or Anita Sarkeesian" and people still regularly pop up to call the OP a SJW or go "but the men are just as sexualized as the women !".
People are going to be accused of that regardless of the way it's phrased, that's kind of my point. For example take the "no overly sexualized characters" thread. The title doesn't mention women, the OP is talking about both men and women, there's 3 disclaimers in the OP saying "I don't care about being politically correct or Anita Sarkeesian" and people still regularly pop up to call the OP a SJW or go "but the men are just as sexualized as the women !".
then they should read the OP, not just jump in
if they read the OP and still take issue that's another matter
If you're gonna dismiss a claim because it doesn't correspond to what you've seen, it'd be better to make sure you actually have seen enough to form an accurate impression. And yes, mistaken assumptions is exactly the problem with a lot of 'anti-SJWs", they see someone say 'I'd like a female protagonist' and immediately assume they must hate all men.
The thing is: One is either a man or a woman. If you say you want it to be a woman, then you are also saying you do not want it to be a man. It is the same thing.
It also assigns it a supposed importance: It is important enough to voice, after all.
The thing is: One is either a man or a woman. If you say you want it to be a woman, then you are also saying you do not want it to be a man. It is the same thing.
It also assigns it a supposed importance: It is important enough to voice, after all.
Not really. If I say I'd rather have a female protagonist it doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't play the same game with a male protagonist. It's just expressing a preference.
The thing is: One is either a man or a woman. If you say you want it to be a woman, then you are also saying you do not want it to be a man. It is the same thing.
It also assigns it a supposed importance: It is important enough to voice, after all.
That doesn't follow at all. A lot of people like to play both, but prioritize one. I play both genders, but being able to play as a female protagonist, who the game recognizes distinctly as a female, is the reason that Bioware rpgs are my favorite.
not to be overly harsh, but BioWare games hardly go out of their way to provide meaningful differences in content between female and male characters
not to be overly harsh, but BioWare games hardly go out of their way to provide meaningful differences in content between female and male characters
Cassandra doesn't count?
Cassandra doesn't count?
I think they meant as a protagonist
I think they meant as a protagonist
Otakus aren't hipsters
It was a joke about SJW being pretty much a meaningless catchall for "I do not agree with you entirely, good sir (or ma'am, as the case may be)!" Like hipster.
Cassandra has some dialogue about being a female inquisitor.
oh that
I'm thinking something a bit more than just a few lines of dialogue, its hardly a meaningful difference
not to be overly harsh, but BioWare games hardly go out of their way to provide meaningful differences in content between female and male characters
YMMV, but my female Cousland steps on the scene and she gets distinct female only dialogue with her father, Arl Howe, her mother, her brother, her mother's visiting friend, her visiting friend's son, her visiting friend's elven handmaiden, potentially Duncan (if she tries to seduce him), Alistair, Morrigan, Flemeth (who makes a mild overture towards a male Warden and not a female), both of the other Warden recruits she meets at Ostagar, and the prisoner in a cage who would like a kiss before dying. This continues with almost every recruited companion, like Sten, Leliana, Oghren, Shale. There's small differences in heaps of NPC conversations, with Ruck, with Bann Teagan, with Alistair's "sister." She can't even be convinced by a female as well as a male PC.
I mean, the list goes on and on. There's the Elven spy in Redcliffe who called her pretty when she was polite to him. I've exhausted almost every dialogue with both a male and a female character in Origins, and that game tried to work in a way to acknowledge the characters race and gender at least every other conversation. DA2 didn't have as much of that, but there was still a difference in banter, and flirting, and a few NPCs reacted with sexism or acknowledgement. Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Varric. There's gender specific dialogue all over.
A person could still feel like it's superficial, sure, but I've never played another RPG that both let me play a female and recognized it so consistently. In Skyrim, for example, it's mostly just a visual difference. I can think of two NPCs who noticed my character was female, but I don't remember any gender specific dialogue options. I don't know of any company other than Bioware that even bothers.
If you're gonna dismiss a claim because it doesn't correspond to what you've seen, it'd be better to make sure you actually have seen enough to form an accurate impression. And yes, mistaken assumptions is exactly the problem with a lot of 'anti-SJWs", they see someone say 'I'd like a female protagonist' and immediately assume they must hate all men.
If I have to go looking for it, it's reasonable to believe it's less common than what I see more often.
The title of the thread isn't "I'd like a female protagonist", it's "not white protagonist." It's not asking for something for particular reasons, but is instead saying "I'm sick of whitey". Now, that isn't the OP's actual request, but it's what the thread title says.
YMMV, but my female Cousland steps on the scene and she gets distinct female only dialogue with her father, Arl Howe, her mother, her brother, her mother's visiting friend, her visiting friend's son, her visiting friend's elven handmaiden, potentially Duncan (if she tries to seduce him), Alistair, Morrigan, Flemeth (who makes a mild overture towards a male Warden and not a female), both of the other Warden recruits she meets at Ostagar, and the prisoner in a cage who would like a kiss before dying. This continues with almost every recruited companion, like Sten, Leliana, Oghren, Shale. There's small differences in heaps of NPC conversations, with Ruck, with Bann Teagan, with Alistair's "sister." She can't even be convinced by a female as well as a male PC.
I mean, the list goes on and on. There's the Elven spy in Redcliffe who called her pretty when she was polite to him. I've exhausted almost every dialogue with both a male and a female character in Origins, and that game tried to work in a way to acknowledge the characters race and gender at least every other conversation. DA2 didn't have as much of that, but there was still a difference in banter, and flirting, and a few NPCs reacted with sexism or acknowledgement. Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Varric. There's gender specific dialogue all over.
A person could still feel like it's superficial, sure, but I've never played another RPG that both let me play a female and recognized it so consistently. In Skyrim, for example, it's mostly just a visual difference. I can think of two NPCs who noticed my character was female, but I don't remember any gender specific dialogue options. I don't know of any company other than Bioware that even bothers.
Yeah, there are good examples in Origins, particularly with Sten. The only on I remember in Mass Effect is when you go to join the attack on Archangel though.
If I have to go looking for it, it's reasonable to believe it's less common than what I see more often.
The title of the thread isn't "I'd like a female protagonist", it's "not white protagonist." It's not asking for something for particular reasons, but is instead saying "I'm sick of whitey". Now, that isn't the OP's actual request, but it's what the thread title says.
I've given you many examples, from this board and even from this thread. It's definitely not a rarity. You're even doing it now. The title says "Not only white protagonist", meaning more non-white protagonists, not necessarily to the exclusion of white protagonists. You're the one assuming that wanting to see more non-white characters means not wanting to see white characters at all. There's nothing in the title or the OP that says that.
YMMV, but my female Cousland steps on the scene and she gets distinct female only dialogue with her father, Arl Howe, her mother, her brother, her mother's visiting friend, her visiting friend's son, her visiting friend's elven handmaiden, potentially Duncan (if she tries to seduce him), Alistair, Morrigan, Flemeth (who makes a mild overture towards a male Warden and not a female), both of the other Warden recruits she meets at Ostagar, and the prisoner in a cage who would like a kiss before dying. This continues with almost every recruited companion, like Sten, Leliana, Oghren, Shale. There's small differences in heaps of NPC conversations, with Ruck, with Bann Teagan, with Alistair's "sister." She can't even be convinced by a female as well as a male PC.
I mean, the list goes on and on. There's the Elven spy in Redcliffe who called her pretty when she was polite to him. I've exhausted almost every dialogue with both a male and a female character in Origins, and that game tried to work in a way to acknowledge the characters race and gender at least every other conversation. DA2 didn't have as much of that, but there was still a difference in banter, and flirting, and a few NPCs reacted with sexism or acknowledgement. Isabela, Anders, Fenris, Varric. There's gender specific dialogue all over.
A person could still feel like it's superficial, sure, but I've never played another RPG that both let me play a female and recognized it so consistently. In Skyrim, for example, it's mostly just a visual difference. I can think of two NPCs who noticed my character was female, but I don't remember any gender specific dialogue options. I don't know of any company other than Bioware that even bothers.
I've given you many examples, from this board and even from this thread. It's definitely not a rarity. You're even doing it now. The title says "Not only white protagonist", meaning more non-white protagonists, not necessarily to the exclusion of white protagonists. You're the one assuming that wanting to see more non-white characters means not wanting to see white characters at all. There's nothing in the title or the OP that says that.
You've given hypotheticals, not examples, and I don't deny it happens. I just ignore those people.
I never assumed it meant no white characters, but it shows a concern for skin tone that I don't share. It's also not what the thread is actually about.
You've given hypotheticals, not examples, and I don't deny it happens. I just ignore those people.
I never assumed it meant no white characters, but it shows a concern for skin tone that I don't share. It's also not what the thread is actually about.
I didn't give direct quotes but there were examples taken from this board. And when your only answer is "but when I've seen it it was always justified" it sounds a lot like denial to me. You said the title means "I'm sick of whitey" when it doesn't. You said the poor thread title is the reason it's understandable people started using terms like political correctness to describe the OP. 'Anti-SJWs' base a lot of their criticism on assumptions, which is why people get labeled SJWs for the smallest thing. That was my original point.
I didn't give direct quotes but there were examples taken from this board. And when your only answer is "but when I've seen it it was always justified" it sounds a lot like denial to me. You said the title means "I'm sick of whitey" when it doesn't. You said the poor thread title is the reason it's understandable people started using terms like political correctness to describe the OP. 'Anti-SJWs' base a lot of their criticism on assumptions, which is why people get labeled SJWs for the smallest thing. That was my original point.
I didn't mean to imply "always", so I edited that comment. But the title does mean "I'm sick of whitey". That's now what the thread is about, but it is what the title says. Also, we did have at least one racist SJW on here earlier saying stupid things.
I didn't mean to imply "always", so I edited that comment. But the title does mean "I'm sick of whitey". That's now what the thread is about, but it is what the title says. Also, we did have at least one racist SJW on here earlier saying stupid things.
I really don't agree with your interpretation of the title, especially since "whitey" has a pretty strong negative connotation which makes it sound even more like a "I hate white people" deal. Not wanting to see only one thing doesn't necessarily mean you're sick of seeing it, it could mean you want to see another thing in addition to it. If I ask Bioware to show 'not only gameplay trailers' it doesn't mean I'm opposed to seeing them, I just want to see story trailers as well.
(As an aside, forums as a whole would be a better place if people at least bothered to read the original post and not just the title.)
It's kinda funny that the people who seem to get the most worked up about stuff like this are those who object to having something other than a white male as the default protagonist....
It's kinda funny that the people who seem to get the most worked up about stuff like this are those who object to having something other than a white male as the default protagonist....
Has anyone actually expressed such an opinion in this thread? Or are you just ascribing nefarious motivations to people you don't agree with?
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