33 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

I have seen complaints about how the spirit school is now just about support and healing, about how spirit isn't what it used to be. Well, the old school spirit tree is still around... You just have to look for it. Spirit had 4 powers in DA2, let's see how it matches.

 

walking bomb- in DAI, necromancer.

 

 

death syphon- in DAI, powered up a ton and doesn't need to be turned on anymore and its ranged is enormous now.

 

dispel- in DAI, it doesn't do damage to dispelled enemies anymore but it does power up the mage who did the dispelling.

 

 

spirit bolt- in DAI... In the rift mage spec of all places, renamed to stonefist. Don't think this is accurate? Think about it. It's a point to point projectile, it does spirit damage, and its main special trait is that it has a very fast cooldown allowing you to fire it often. Now what spell was I just talking about, since that description matches both? Well, the DAI one is better since it also does a status ailment and has an AOE to it.

 

spirit mark (DAO spirit spell)- Now, there is one truly old school spirit spell from DAO that has made a return in DAI. Spirit mark is raise dead, except with a damage over time effect on the living as well. We haven't seen the raise dead spell in a long time, not since DAO and it was one of the final abilities in the spirit tree.

 

 

This basically means that necromancer is our classic spirit school from past games. It's just now, because spirit magic is meant to be more unique and special in DAI, it's been relegated into its own specialization. Only weird thing is that spirit bolt ended up in another specialization, but specializations are only allowed 3 activated skills which meant necromancer had to be lacking in something. And rift mage was probably lacking in an activated skill, so spirit bolt got traded around like mages do in Dalish clans. But yeah, you want your old school spirit school back? Pick necromancer, it's got 4 classic spirit spells and one of those spells turned into an awesome passive instead of making you use it as a sustained skill like it used to. And it also has an entropy skill in there... Because I don't know. But horror is a good skill, and it fits better in there than it would in rift mage (which leaves rift mage keeping spirit bolt/stronefist). Now if your complaint is that entropy as a school is gone, then you have a point.

[BansheeOwnage]

spirit bolt- in DAI... In the rift mage spec of all places, renamed to stonefist. Don't think this is accurate?

I have to say no, simply because Stonefist is a lot more like... Stonefist.

 

It's really nothing like Spirit Bolt.

[andy6915]

I have to say no, simply because Stonefist is a lot more like... Stonefist.

 

It's really nothing like Spirit Bolt.

 

Made of spirit (not stone) and does spirit damage, fast cooldown, point to point projectile... No similarity at all .

 

Whatever. Do you disagree with the rest?

[Dai Grepher]

Where's my Crushing Prison? :\

[Dai Grepher]

Also, wasn't Death Syphon part of the entropy school?

[andy6915]

Where's my Crushing Prison? :\

 

That one is a weird one. It started off in spirit and did spirit damage, then it got sent to arcane and became crappier by being physical damage, then got removed entirely. Poor spell got nerfed out of existence. I do agree though, that spell was awesome... Especially when used to finish an ogre in DA2, since it makes you do the special kill mage Hawke does to an ogre in the fake prologue.

[The Baconer]

I'd rather it be reinstated as a basic tree, with new specializations not having recycled spells.

[andy6915]

I'd rather it be reinstated as a basic tree, with new specializations not having recycled spells.

I don't disagree.

[Orian Tabris]

I have to say no, simply because Stonefist is a lot more like... Stonefist.

 

It's really nothing like Spirit Bolt.

 

They are similar, since they're both single-target spells that shoot at range. I think BioWare merged the two together, since Stonefist knocks enemies back and Spirit Bolt/Arcane Bolt does spirit damage. Stonefist in Inquisition debilitates, and knocking enemies down in the other two games disrupts them (especially in DA2, where they have tactics for effects like knock back and disorient).

 

Honestly, Spirit Bolt makes more sense in the Rift Mage spec., because a stone spell is earthy, but Rift Mage uses spells based out of the magic realm, not the physical realm. If I didn't explain it well, then essentially:

Stone is physical.

Spirit is magical, not physical.

Rift Mage is magical-based.

[Orian Tabris]

dispel- in DAI, it doesn't do damage to dispelled enemies anymore but it does power up the mage who did the dispelling.

 

I don't like the idea of Dispel doing damage or strengthening the user. I think it should just remove effects, and maybe weaken or disorient the target. I mean, the idea behind "dispelling" is to subtract effects, not to add effects.

[The Baconer]

I don't like the idea of Dispel doing damage or strengthening the user. I think it should just remove effects, and maybe weaken or disorient the target. I mean, the idea behind "dispelling" is to subtract effects, not to add effects.

 

I think it depends on application. Dispelling magic has been used both in a "neutral" manner as you describe and also in a more offensive-oriented "purging" manner, in the games and in the books (Asunder). The damaging aspect tends to be the effect of somehow turning the victim's mana against them, or breaking their concentration and ability to sustain magic in a forceful manner.

[Scofield]

Just because some of the spells from the previous games are in DA:I doesnt mean i need to like what they did, an tbh it is the one thing i never will. they totally annihilated the tress and for me totally ruined one of the major reasons i enjoyed doing so many play throughs of previous games, now im stuck with limited play throughs because every mage outside the 3 so called "advanced" specs is exactly the same as the mage that came before with the only choice to them is what spell to pick first instead of last, an put that scenario into any other class an it is the same

[Orian Tabris]

I think it depends on application. Dispelling magic has been used both in a "neutral" manner as you describe and also in a more offensive-oriented "purging" manner, in the games and in the books (Asunder). The damaging aspect tends to be the effect of somehow turning the victim's mana against them, or breaking their concentration and ability to sustain magic in a forceful manner.

 

I'm thinking more on the original concept/the dictionary meaning of the term, rather than how BioWare has handled it. The idea is that if you dispel something, you alleviate its effects. Simple, really. It says nothing about damaging. Also, purging is much the same thing: it means clearing away undesirable things, so it that sense, it should only really damage things that are evil, like undead, but I don't think Dispel specifies what it hurts.

 

I think Dispel should do no damage whatsoever, and that it should maybe buff or debuff, depending on what it targets.

[The Baconer]

I'm thinking more on the original concept/the dictionary meaning of the term, rather than how BioWare has handled it. The idea is that if you dispel something, you alleviate its effects. Simple, really. It says nothing about damaging. Also, purging is much the same thing: it means clearing away undesirable things, so it that sense, it should only really damage things that are evil, like undead, but I don't think Dispel specifies what it hurts.

 

I think Dispel should do no damage whatsoever, and that it should maybe buff or debuff, depending on what it targets.

 

Perhaps damage is not so much the actual intent, but a (coincidentally useful) side-effect. In The Masked Empire, Felassan dispels magic being cast by Mihris, which causes such a shock as to incapacitate her. Spells are an effort of willpower and of the mind, so it doesn't seem that far-fetched that it causes some kind of discomforting backlash when they are purged, that could be suitably approximated as damage for the sake of game mechanics.

[Heimerdinger]

Meh, they still streamlined the crap out of it. Lets take a look back at the School of Spirit's origins back in...Origins.

 

16 spells divided into 4 sub-schools

 

Anti-Magic: Spell Shield, Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Ward, Anti-Magic burst

Mana: Mana Drain, Mana Cleanse, Spell Might, Mana Clash

Death: Walking Bomb, Death Syphon, Virulent Walking Bomb, Animate Dead

Telekinesis: Mind blast, Force Field, Telekinetic Weapons, Crushing Prison.

 

First branch was perfect for magic defense, but since mages are no threat in DAI (they just read books apparently lol) I guess no need for that.

 

Mind you, Mana drain became useless fast and Cleanse was broken, but they were worth the wasted points to get Spell Might + Mana Clash. That was a game changer spell right there, you didn't integrate it in your tactics, you build your tactics around it, along with contingency plan in case enemy resisted it. Wow! Enemies resisting spells, where did that go I wonder? Who needs strategy and tactical gameplay anyway?

 

Death branch was cut off and turned into necromancer, since they couldn't be bothered to do a real Necromancer specialization with raise the dead and all that.

 

Telekinesis was castrated and diluted as well, with force field becoming Static Cage (in a different school altogether) and Crushing prison gone completely.

 

Bottom line, the spell trees in DA-I are a mess (all of them) and they can be put to shame even by crappy chinese MMO RPG's.

 

And lets not forget about the stupid 8 slot limit that makes getting above 8 actives pointless. Who the hell swaps quick bar slots before every fight? That's not tactical that's a waste of bloody time.

[andy6915]

Meh, they still streamlined the crap out of it. Lets take a look back at the School of Spirit's origins back in...Origins.

16 spells divided into 4 sub-schools

Anti-Magic: Spell Shield, Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Ward, Anti-Magic burst
Mana: Mana Drain, Mana Cleanse, Spell Might, Mana Clash
Death: Walking Bomb, Death Syphon, Virulent Walking Bomb, Animate Dead
Telekinesis: Mind blast, Force Field, Telekinetic Weapons, Crushing Prison.

First branch was perfect for magic defense, but since mages are no threat in DAI (they just read books apparently lol) I guess no need for that.

Mind you, Mana drain became useless fast and Cleanse was broken, but they were worth the wasted points to get Spell Might + Mana Clash. That was a game changer spell right there, you didn't integrate it in your tactics, you build your tactics around it, along with contingency plan in case enemy resisted it. Wow! Enemies resisting spells, where did that go I wonder? Who needs strategy and tactical gameplay anyway?

Death branch was cut off and turned into necromancer, since they couldn't be bothered to do a real Necromancer specialization with raise the dead and all that.

Telekinesis was castrated and diluted as well, with force field becoming Static Cage (in a different school altogether) and Crushing prison gone completely.

Bottom line, the spell trees in DA-I are a mess (all of them) and they can be put to shame even by crappy chinese MMO RPG's.

And lets not forget about the stupid 8 slot limit that makes getting above 8 actives pointless. Who the hell swaps quick bar slots before every fight? That's not tactical that's a waste of bloody time.

Don't blame DAI for that, DA2 dumbed spirit down first.

[Orian Tabris]

Perhaps damage is not so much the actual intent, but a (coincidentally useful) side-effect. In The Masked Empire, Felassan dispels magic being cast by Mihris, which causes such a shock as to incapacitate her. Spells are an effort of willpower and of the mind, so it doesn't seem that far-fetched that it causes some kind of discomforting backlash when they are purged, that could be suitably approximated as damage for the sake of game mechanics.

 

I think it is far-fetched. I can see it having a possible mind break effect if you cast Dispel on someone still in the middle of casting a spell, or the spell requires some sort of maintenance, but if the spell doesn't need to be maintained once cast, damage shouldn't really be a side-effect. And honestly, a flinch or loss of concentration shouldn't really be counted as damage. If there has to be some form of damage to health, it should be negligible.

 

Mind Blast from Origins has a good example of how much discomfort should be felt. The fact that the victim can't move or do anything, not the animation/s you can see - BioWare can't seem to make a good animation for that sort of thing, and it looks pretty silly in DA2 and DAI. I'd say only the head needs to wobble, with maybe stars spinning over it.

[Heimerdinger]

Don't blame DAI for that, DA2 dumbed spirit down first.

 

And DA-I continued the trend started by DA2.

[JadeDragon]

Where's my Crushing Prison? :\

Crushing Prison has been in the series since DA:O i have no idea why they would remove the coolest spirit power. I understand they wanted to make the spirit tree a more passive tree but they could have at least had Crushing Prison to give spirit tree something. It couldve even connected to barrier

[Patchwork]

Crushing Prison has been in the series since DA:O i have no idea why they would remove the coolest spirit power. I understand they wanted to make the spirit tree a more passive tree but they could have at least had Crushing Prison to give spirit tree something. It couldve even connected to barrier

 

Some sort of reverse Barrier that does damage over time or increase damage taken would have been a nice addition to the Spirit Tree.  

[ElementalFury106]

Spirit bolt was most notable for not only having a low cooldown, but also having an incredibly low mana cost, unlike Stonefist. Plus the whole look and feel of Stonefist is much different than Spirit Bolt imo.

 

The rest is agreeable, though it's silly how these basic spells were recycled into being specialized spells...doesn't make sense.

 

I'm also part of the enormous crowd who severely misses Crushing Prison. Best damn spell ever.

[BansheeOwnage]

Made of spirit (not stone) and does spirit damage, fast cooldown, point to point projectile... No similarity at all .

 

Whatever. Do you disagree with the rest?

That's basically my answer, below me.

 

Spirit bolt was most notable for not only having a low cooldown, but also having an incredibly low mana cost, unlike Stonefist. Plus the whole look and feel of Stonefist is much different than Spirit Bolt imo.

 

The rest is agreeable, though it's silly how these basic spells were recycled into being specialized spells...doesn't make sense.

 

I'm also part of the enormous crowd who severely misses Crushing Prison. Best damn spell ever.

[Thibax]

Healing? Where?

 

It's one of the reasons that I want them to add more skill trees. 

 

Primal: fire, earth, cold and lightning

Creation: healing, enhancements, glyphs and summoning

Spirit: anti-magic, alteration mana, death and telekinesis

Entropy: debilitation, hexes, sleep and draining

 

Spells with fire, cold, electrical, nature or spirit damage.

 

For me, all spells could come back, even if reformulated in accordance with the gameplay.

 

What will happen in the next game of the DA? More spells will be left out?

[themageguy]

Its interesting to note that the Knight enchanter specialisation also utilises Spirit magics.

Spirit blade and the resurgence spells specifically.

The necromancer specialisation is all about spirit energy and manipulation.

I would love to see the return of creation and entropy spells specifically spells like heroic aura, glyphs of paralysis and repulsion, and the hexes.

[Lebanese Dude]

 

Healing? Where?

 

It's one of the reasons that I want them to add more skill trees. 

 

Primal: fire, earth, cold and lightning

Creation: healing, enhancements, glyphs and summoning

Spirit: anti-magic, alteration mana, death and telekinesis

Entropy: debilitation, hexes, sleep and draining

 

Spells with fire, cold, electrical, nature or spirit damage.

 

For me, all spells could come back, even if reformulated in accordance with the gameplay.

 

What will happen in the next game of the DA? More spells will be left out?

 

 

Doubtful. There's no need to be cynical.

 

DAI simply combined many spells to reduce spell clutter and synchronize with its new resource system, which I frankly find far more realistic (with respect to canon) than being able to cast dozens of spells in a row without fatigue.

 

Most abilities in DAI (if not all) have two or even three effects. This makes them feel more impactful. The only real change is clicking one spell instead of two weaker ones. I'm not sure about you, but Arcane Barrage nuking the crap out of an enemy (pretty colors!) then acting as a Vulnerability Hex for the respective school when upgraded feels pretty good.

 

Furthermore, specializations in DAI have been vastly expanded from their introduction in DAO. Many specializations have abilities previously recognized as part of a different school. The choices remain, but are now integrated within a different choice of specialization. Choice isn't just giving the player access to hundreds of spells. Choice can also be integrated by making the player choose how they want to shape their character via mutually exclusive paths. Frankly I prefer the latter. It makes my character more unique. By the time I started DA:A, all my characters of the same class felt the same.

 

Also, many abilities were reworked to look differently in order to reconcile with the setting but to remain functionally the same. An example is the Spirit Mark ability. It wouldn't make sense within the context of the Inquisition to be able to raise skeletons, not to mention that you are required to inject a spirit in order to do so, in a setting where the Veil has been torn and demons are somewhat uncontrollable. Casting a brief control spell on the enemy's spirit is far less questionable, while remaining in a morally dark area fitting for the necromancer school. 

 

Other abilities were given to other classes, to continue deconstructing the vast OP'ness of mages that started in DAO. Parts of the creation tree were given to the Templar specialization to give warriors the ability to act as support in other ways than tanking. Their "auras" are versions of the buff spells previously reserved for mages.

 

Not much has been lost overall, and what has been lost is relatively minor such as weapon elemental enchanting and sustained abilities which have been made into passives.

 

The only significantly noticeable change was the removal of direct healing spells as a result of the new attrition-based combat (which I"m a huge fan of).

 

Still, I would like the return of the Creation tree in general, if only because mages should have access to more supportive builds that aren't limited to the Spirit tree. The return of glyphs, direct buff abilities, and non-spammable heals would be fun. Furthermore, they can add more defensive passives to add to the diversity of late-game builds.