841 réponses à ce sujet

[SNascimento]

A small point, but there are several discussions in ME3 with the crew members after the fall of Thessia. The game does exactly what you are asking it to do.

There are discussions about it, but I, and many other people, felt we could not choose how Shepard responded to it. For example, Joker makes a joke about the Asari wishing they had more soldiers and less strippers and Shepard gets angry at him. You cannot chose otherwise. In that kind of situation in previous games you could, like after the mission to rescue Liara. 

[themikefest]

There are discussions about it, but I, and many other people, felt we could not choose how Shepard responded to it. For example, Joker makes a joke about the Asari wishing they had more soldiers and less strippers and Shepard gets angry at him. You cannot chose otherwise. In that kind of situation in previous games you could, like after the mission to rescue Liara. 

Shepard can yell at Joker for  that joke, but Shepard can't call out Liara for instigating an argument with Javik after Thessia. Or better yet can't get in her face about making that stupid comment about the alliance providing air support

[SNascimento]

Shepard can yell at Joker for  that joke, but Shepard can't call out Liara for instigating an argument with Javik after Thessia. Or better yet can't get in her face about making that stupid comment about the alliance providing air support

I believe Thessia and especially its aftermath is a very low point in the series. 

[In Exile]

A small point, but there are several discussions in ME3 with the crew members after the fall of Thessia. The game does exactly what you are asking it to do.

 

Not really, though, as the other posters said, because even when there are binary options ME3 oftentines just gives you the multiple tone options of the same opinion rather than multiple opinions. Thessia is the example most point out, but it's a running theme (e.g. saving Earth vs. stopping the Reapers, etc.). 

[Hiemoth]

Not really, though, as the other posters said, because even when there are binary options ME3 oftentines just gives you the multiple tone options of the same opinion rather than multiple opinions. Thessia is the example most point out, but it's a running theme (e.g. saving Earth vs. stopping the Reapers, etc.). 

 

ME3 was a very structualized story about stopping the Reapers, with most of the time the P/R options reflecting how Shepard handled the relentless pressure of her task. In the situations discussed here, those tone options are meant to allow us to represent Shepard is within the confines of that story. To be honest, the more I read, I don't quite understand the point as the initial complaint was about how the game didn't allow Shepard to discuss how s/he felt about the Fall of Thessia, which is false. The prime discussion on that is the discussion with Garrus after the event.

 

 

Shepard can yell at Joker for  that joke, but Shepard can't call out Liara for instigating an argument with Javik after Thessia. Or better yet can't get in her face about making that stupid comment about the alliance providing air support

 

Exactly what would you be calling Liara out after that argument? 'Hey, Liara, I know that you watched your home world basically be destroyed, but let's keep it together here and not yell at Javik who keeps being dismissive of you and your whole race. We cool here?' As for the air support comment, I don't actually anything like that, so I can't comment on that one.

 

 

I believe Thessia and especially its aftermath is a very low point in the series. 

 

How? Seriously, how? In a game about war, how is the one mission where the central point is that you can't win everything even with sacrifice the low point of the series?

[SNascimento]

How? Seriously, how? In a game about war, how is the one mission where the central point is that you can't win everything even with sacrifice the low point of the series?

Well, there are two fronts here.

One is gameplay. I thought Thessia was a mission very small and simple given its importance and without much interesting gameplay. It felt a simple get from point A to point B killing everything in the way. This is not really a problem in itself, but for a mission that you yourself mention how it's a unique point in the series it is very lackluster.

The other one is narrative. I don't have a problem with them forcing a defeat on us, it was only to be expected when facing the Reapers, but the your defeat by Kai Leng could have been done better (that's is a problem both of narrative and gameplay). The problem comes from from the absolute lack of choice we have all across the mission and its aftermath. You're forced to take Liara for example, although not wanting her in the mission would be a completely reasonable response. After the defeat you cannot choose how your Shepard answers to it. I'm sure you'll agree different people take defeats in life differently, but you could not do that. Also, that conversation in which Treynor says she could trace Kai Leng was terrible. 

In short, the problem was that the game didn't allow us to choose how Shepard responded to the defeat. 

[Dantriges]

there was a lot of hype that if you win,you save thessia. Considering that the planet fell when you are still in orbit, it´s rather silly. It felt weird that you told everyone, we get the relic, we win the war. I don´t know if it´s different in english but AFAIK at this time, we don´t even know if it has the all important data or if it´s just another obelisk of Karza. And the reapers were already on Thessia. Is the Crucible finished at this time with only the catalyst missing? And the whole atmosphere afterwards was like "oh you lost to Kai Leng, lost Thessia and everyone tries to raise your spirit, well can I decide if I feel sorry or not.

[themikefest]

Exactly what would you be calling Liara out after that argument? 'Hey, Liara, I know that you watched your home world basically be destroyed, but let's keep it together here and not yell at Javik who keeps being dismissive of you and your whole race. We cool here?' As for the air support comment, I don't actually anything like that, so I can't comment on that one.

What reason does she have to be arguing with Javik? Better yet, what was she trying to accomplish by going to his room? He had nothing to do with Thessia being attacked. She needs to focus on why her species hid the artifact and stop blaming others

[In Exile]

ME3 was a very structualized story about stopping the Reapers, with most of the time the P/R options reflecting how Shepard handled the relentless pressure of her task. In the situations discussed here, those tone options are meant to allow us to represent Shepard is within the confines of that story. To be honest, the more I read, I don't quite understand the point as the initial complaint was about how the game didn't allow Shepard to discuss how s/he felt about the Fall of Thessia, which is false. The prime discussion on that is the discussion with Garrus after the event.

 

That's mischaracterizing the complaint. No one is saying that Shepard should have lengthy options about fashion views. But the reaction to Joker's joke as being varying degrees of telling Joker off, that's not allowing "variance" in reflecting an attitude, it's just allowing variance in expressing the identical attitude. 

 

That's the complaint. Because you get one feeling, and two-ish ways to express it. Whereas people want something more akin to ME1, where (e.g. re: Council-human relations) your options are either "Co-operationg good, humanity should play its part!" vs. "Council bad, humanity first is all that matters." If this were ME3, you'd only get one of the options and two ways to express it. 

[In Exile]

Exactly what would you be calling Liara out after that argument? 'Hey, Liara, I know that you watched your home world basically be destroyed, but let's keep it together here and not yell at Javik who keeps being dismissive of you and your whole race. We cool here?' As for the air support comment, I don't actually anything like that, so I can't comment on that one.

 

The problem is straightforwardly simple: the writers thought that we'd unequivocally feel sympathy for the asari, just as they thought we'd automatically assume that Earth is priority#1-8, but that's not true for everyone. Not to say it's necessarily true for me, but just that there are other views out there, and the game can't justifiably say that it supports multiple views if it reduces it to one view expressed differently. 

[Sifr]

The problem is straightforwardly simple: the writers thought that we'd unequivocally feel sympathy for the asari, just as they thought we'd automatically assume that Earth is priority#1-8, but that's not true for everyone. Not to say it's necessarily true for me, but just that there are other views out there, and the game can't justifiably say that it supports multiple views if it reduces it to one view expressed differently. 

 

As much as I like Liara, Champions and Heroes did a very accurate comic pointing out that when it came to Earth and Palaven, Liara was sympathetic but urged Shepard and Garrus to be all stiff-upper-lip (or whatever Garrus has instead of lips) and instead focus on saving the galaxy... whereas when Thessia falls, she nearly rage-quits and we have to be the one to lift her out of her slump.

[Hiemoth]

What reason does she have to be arguing with Javik? Better yet, what was she trying to accomplish by going to his room? He had nothing to do with Thessia being attacked. She needs to focus on why her species hid the artifact and stop blaming others

 

She went to Javik's room because not only did her home world just get destroyed, she also found out that her species was basically created by the Protheans. When she is in this distraugth state confronting Javik about her people were not just some animals for the Protheans experiment on, literal quote by the way, and Javik's response is his usual behaviour by being a dick about it. She isn't blaming Javik for the destruction for her world, she is trying to make sense of everything that has happened. It is a very 'human' reaction.

 

 

As much as I like Liara, Champions and Heroes did a very accurate comic pointing out that when it came to Earth and Palaven, Liara was sympathetic but urged Shepard and Garrus to be all stiff-upper-lip (or whatever Garrus has instead of lips) and instead focus on saving the galaxy... whereas when Thessia falls, she nearly rage-quits and we have to be the one to lift her out of slump.

 

True, but it was also her home and her species, meaning it is much more difficult to be objective about that. While her behavious are a bit hypocritical in certain senses, to me it is also extremely understandable and makes the character feel much more 'real'.

[Hiemoth]

That's mischaracterizing the complaint. No one is saying that Shepard should have lengthy options about fashion views. But the reaction to Joker's joke as being varying degrees of telling Joker off, that's not allowing "variance" in reflecting an attitude, it's just allowing variance in expressing the identical attitude. 

 

That's the complaint. Because you get one feeling, and two-ish ways to express it. Whereas people want something more akin to ME1, where (e.g. re: Council-human relations) your options are either "Co-operationg good, humanity should play its part!" vs. "Council bad, humanity first is all that matters." If this were ME3, you'd only get one of the options and two ways to express it. 

 

But now your mischaracterizing the content. First of all, ME1 what had several scenes where Shepard's response was literally the same no matter what the dialogue choice you made. It was actually a quite common complaint about the game that was addressed in the later games. So to use ME1 as the example of the shining example in this is somewhat baffling, I would have even understood more if you had gone to ME2.

 

Second, Shepard relationship with the council was a driving narrative in ME1, Shepard's reaction to Joker's joke is not in ME3 and is more akin to those identical response situations. The more valid comparison would have been that the player should have been able to choose how they felt about the Geth/Quarian situation in ME3, which the game allowed to the same degree. I don't even understand why you feel the game would only give you one option in that, as they even give you those choices when literally dealing with the council in ME3.

 

The problem is straightforwardly simple: the writers thought that we'd unequivocally feel sympathy for the asari, just as they thought we'd automatically assume that Earth is priority#1-8, but that's not true for everyone. Not to say it's necessarily true for me, but just that there are other views out there, and the game can't justifiably say that it supports multiple views if it reduces it to one view expressed differently. 

 

Somewhat fair point, although this is ultimately an issue of a having a structured story. In order to push, they have to go for some assumptions about loyalities and priorities. Besides I'm not certain the game forces sympathy for the Asari rather that for Shepard dealing with having failed overall.

[themikefest]

She went to Javik's room because not only did her home world just get destroyed, she also found out that her species was basically created by the Protheans. When she is in this distraugth state confronting Javik about her people were not just some animals for the Protheans experiment on, literal quote by the way, and Javik's response is his usual behaviour by being a dick about it. She isn't blaming Javik for the destruction for her world, she is trying to make sense of everything that has happened. It is a very 'human' reaction.

So what? She still had no reason to get vocal with him regardless of what he says. She needs to grow a backbone and accept that not everyone is going to be nice.  And if she's so distraught, then she should've avoided seeing Javik. 

[Hiemoth]

Well, there are two fronts here.

One is gameplay. I thought Thessia was a mission very small and simple given its importance and without much interesting gameplay. It felt a simple get from point A to point B killing everything in the way. This is not really a problem in itself, but for a mission that you yourself mention how it's a unique point in the series it is very lackluster.

The other one is narrative. I don't have a problem with them forcing a defeat on us, it was only to be expected when facing the Reapers, but the your defeat by Kai Leng could have been done better (that's is a problem both of narrative and gameplay). The problem comes from from the absolute lack of choice we have all across the mission and its aftermath. You're forced to take Liara for example, although not wanting her in the mission would be a completely reasonable response. After the defeat you cannot choose how your Shepard answers to it. I'm sure you'll agree different people take defeats in life differently, but you could not do that. Also, that conversation in which Treynor says she could trace Kai Leng was terrible. 

In short, the problem was that the game didn't allow us to choose how Shepard responded to the defeat. 

 

On the first part, I think the reason for that is simply that while it is an important point, it isn't a part of the Thessian storyline, rather Thessia itself is a part of another on-going storyline. Thus the limited mission, although I thought the map itself was about as large as the mission maps in other stories.

 

As for the second part, Liara played an important in the story of that mission and they couldn't have made it work without her there. So they forced on the player, some may have been disgruntled by that, but sometimes the narrative requires such things. It's the same in ME2 where you actually had to bring each companion to their personal missions as the narrative really doesn't work without them there. As for Kai Leng, I don't have the issue with the loss there as it is a gunship that opens fire on the temple and causes the structure to collapse on Shepard. It seems like a reasonable way to lose.

 

The main issue I have, though, is the constant assertation that you couldn't choose to how to deal with the loss, because you could. There wasn't an infinitie amount of those choices, true, but they were there and usually they tried to give at least certain amount of interpretation. The whole ME3 is basically a continuous study on how Shepard deals with the situation and the ever-growing pressure.

[Hiemoth]

So what? She still had no reason to get vocal with him regardless of what he says. She needs to grow a backbone and accept that not everyone is going to be nice.  And if she's so distraught, then she should've avoided seeing Javik. 

 

So wait, the problem isn't Javik being a dick, it's other people not just accepting that and rolling over for him? Even when he decides on a being dick to someone who literally just witnessed her home world being destroyed by Reapers? In that case, it is Liara's fault for being over-sensitive? Javik has no responsibility in this issue?

 

Also, note that Liara doesn't get vocal with him before that despite him continuously being a dick to her.

[themikefest]

So wait, the problem isn't Javik being a dick, it's other people not just accepting that and rolling over for him? Even when he decides on a being dick to someone who literally just witnessed her home world being destroyed by Reapers? In that case, it is Liara's fault for being over-sensitive? Javik has no responsibility in this issue?

 

Also, note that Liara doesn't get vocal with him before that despite him continuously being a dick to her.

Doesn't get vocal? How about telling Javik to use her name? She even glows indicating she might use physical force.

 

Has far as her homworld being destroyed, so what? If her species is stupid enough to wait till the last minute about revealing that artifact, then I have no sympathy for them at all.

[Dantriges]

Doesn't get vocal? How about telling Javik to use her name? She even glows indicating she might use physical force.

 

Has far as her homworld being destroyed, so what? If her species is stupid enough to wait till the last minute about revealing that artifact, then I have no sympathy for them at all.

 

Well, it´s not like I had the same idea sometimes.   Would be nice to have the option to tell him to shut up and stop being all arrogant. These "primitives" and "lunch snacks in my time" are his only chance at getting revenge for his dead people and its not like he is providing much besides another warm body and a bonus power. The gun is nice though. Can I keep it and throw him back in the fridge?

 

And well humanity was the same. They had you in custody for six months, the crucible data was in the archive* for thirty years, only one asari was working on the issue and they started asking you how to fight the Reapers when they were already there. I wish there was an option after the lady general asked with "Is that all?" to respond with "Well, you should have asked earlier, idiots."

 

*which the humans don´t share, Liara was the only alien there. Could be because this law never popped up till ME 3. One of first questions you can ask is "Why do we share the beacon at all" and Nihlus explains "for the diplomatic bennies."

[themikefest]

Well, it´s not like I had the same idea sometimes.   Would be nice to have the option to tell him to shut up and stop being all arrogant.

You don't have to talk to him. Or better yet, don't recruit him
 

These "primitives" and "lunch snacks in my time" are his only chance at getting revenge for his dead people

I would most likely act just like him if I was the only one left.
 

And well humanity was the same.They had you in custody for six months,

Too bad Shepard couldn't ask the ME1 characters why they never made any effort to find a way to stop the reapers after the SR1 was destroyed. All they did was turn into c**kroaches and scatter throughout the galaxy
 

the crucible data was in the archive* for thirty years,

It wasn't hidden from the galaxy like the beacon was
 

I wish there was an option after the lady general asked with "Is that all?"

Did she say that? Wasn't it the guy that said "That's it? That's our plan"?
 

to respond with "Well, you should have asked earlier, idiots."

I would've responded with a more harsh response
 

Liara was the only alien there.

Why didn't she download the plans to her omnitool or forward the information to Hackett?
 

Could be because this law never popped up till ME 3.

The law about withholding prothean ruins or artifacts? Why didn't they reveal it after the plans for the device were presented to the Council?
 

[Bourne Endeavor]

That's mischaracterizing the complaint. No one is saying that Shepard should have lengthy options about fashion views. But the reaction to Joker's joke as being varying degrees of telling Joker off, that's not allowing "variance" in reflecting an attitude, it's just allowing variance in expressing the identical attitude. 

 

That's the complaint. Because you get one feeling, and two-ish ways to express it. Whereas people want something more akin to ME1, where (e.g. re: Council-human relations) your options are either "Co-operationg good, humanity should play its part!" vs. "Council bad, humanity first is all that matters." If this were ME3, you'd only get one of the options and two ways to express it. 

 

Just for emphasis. I'm going to quote two instances, one from ME2, another from ME3. Both have you confront Joker.

 

Crew abduction

Are you okay, Joker?

Is the virus contained?

We need to get the crew back.

I'm not interested in excuses.

 

Thessia falls; Joker's joke.

People died.

You're out of line.

 

Not only do you have less options, Shepard will be angry in the latter regardless of your choice. Mass Effect 3 as a whole had considerably less player input, primarily because neutral options were removed. Frankly, I got the impression EA wanted to further streamline the game under the belief it would attract Call of Duty's audience.

 

Just in case devs/EA are reading these threads. Protip guys. Most CoD fans aren't interested in RPGs. Get that through your head.

[Barquiel]

That's mischaracterizing the complaint. No one is saying that Shepard should have lengthy options about fashion views. But the reaction to Joker's joke as being varying degrees of telling Joker off, that's not allowing "variance" in reflecting an attitude, it's just allowing variance in expressing the identical attitude. 

 

That's the complaint. Because you get one feeling, and two-ish ways to express it. Whereas people want something more akin to ME1, where (e.g. re: Council-human relations) your options are either "Co-operationg good, humanity should play its part!" vs. "Council bad, humanity first is all that matters." If this were ME3, you'd only get one of the options and two ways to express it. 

 

I really don't know why people are claiming that there is no variation in that scene. It's simply not true.

Paragon...
S: "I appreciate the thought, Joker. But I'm fine!"
Joker and Shep are still best buddies.

Renegade...
S: "When I want a damned pep-talk, I'll ask for one.  Otherwise, you're my pilot, not my therapist.  Is that clear?”
Joker is mad for the rest of the game, you can apologize later

The tone is completely different, Jokers reaction is completely different and the rest of Jokers dialogue in the game plays out differently. I mean...ok, you didn't get the option to laugh (and I found Shepards reaction too mild after Joker's racist slur), but it's really not the same. This is even one of the rare instances where NPCs remember how you treated them.

[Dantriges]

You don't have to talk to him. Or better yet, don't recruit him
 

I would most likely act just like him if I was the only one left.
 

It wasn't hidden from the galaxy like the beacon was
 

Did she say that? Wasn't it the guy that said "That's it? That's our plan"?

 

Hm, don´t know how to split quotes here.

Ok, my statement about  Javik was a bit exaggerated. But hey I spend extra cash to get insulted by him, I have to visit him.   Most of the time I put up with him and well I get why he is like this. I also got why Liara went ballistic at him. And well it´s no big deal. The Normandy had many unstable crewmembers in her career, like Zaeed, the guy who blew up a refinery, Wrex, Grunt, Jack and even some conflicts nearly exploding into violence like Jack-Miranda or Tali-Legion. 

So it´s not ok, but it´s not like Liara wanted to kick a poor, innocent, defenseless puppy. Javik is a big avatar of vengeance with an attitude, he can take some verbal abuse.

 

Defense dudes: I don´t remember the exact words at the moment. Could be the guy, think it was the lady in german but I don´t think it´s really important.

 

Crucible data: Why didn´t Liara download it? No idea, perhaps she wasn´t cleared for downloads and got only read only access. Cerberus got the copy via their leet superhacking skills.

 

About the beacon: I don´t know but I don´t get mad at the asari for keeping the beacon secret. It´s not like they knew, that the VI was inside and it was some small cabal anyways. It feels a bit over the top to say that billions of people deserve to die horribly just because they have a stupid government.

 

The law: Dunno. Government, dimwits, governmental dimwits, don´t think that Tevos knew. Thought they could handle the Reapers on their own, perhaps they needed some time to talk about that or feared personal consequences. It´s a small cabal within a democracy and they hid a big secret. Look at the current political debates and how long stuff takes to clear up, especially the shady stuff.

 

Not nice but  I still don´t think that billions of normal blue chicks deserve to die and their homeworld reduced to rubble.

[GaroTD]

Make biotics look like something that alterates gravity again, the effects in ME1 that showed light bending around the target were amazing.



Please don't make us throw little balls of blue space magic again, it looks silly...

100% agree! I want biotic look more like in first ME.

[dgcatanisiri]

I really don't know why people are claiming that there is no variation in that scene. It's simply not true.

Paragon...
S: "I appreciate the thought, Joker. But I'm fine!"
Joker and Shep are still best buddies.

Renegade...
S: "When I want a damned pep-talk, I'll ask for one.  Otherwise, you're my pilot, not my therapist.  Is that clear?”
Joker is mad for the rest of the game, you can apologize later

The tone is completely different, Jokers reaction is completely different and the rest of Jokers dialogue in the game plays out differently. I mean...ok, you didn't get the option to laugh (and I found Shepards reaction too mild after Joker's racist slur), but it's really not the same. This is even one of the rare instances where NPCs remember how you treated them.

 

That's not the part we're reacting to. Never has been. It's the first one. The one you find 'too mild.' You want to be more extreme, fine. Me, I hear that as a lousy joke made as a part of attempting to cope with a horrific event - I have done the same thing. I have been in the midst of traumatic experiences, and my method of attempting to cope, to process, accept, and deal with the things I'm going through is to make really crappy, even off-color jokes, because for me, it's laugh or cry, and if I cry, I break down and become effectively useless. I see Joker being the same, and he is in a position where he can't afford to be useless. So I get where it's coming from. I understand why he's said that, and, even if I don't agree with the statement, I get why he's saying it. I would accept a three way option there - a 'not now Joker' style choice, one of the options from what is there in game, and your preferred rage. I don't mind you getting what you want as long as I get what I want as well. Instead, we are getting two variations on 'how dare you act like this in reaction to Thessia falling?!' THAT'S what people mean when they're saying you're getting variations on a single reaction, rather than a choice.

 

Thessia's aftermath is a certified clusterfuck in terms of characterization, because we don't get a single word of input on how Shepard is taking things. Everyone talks at Shepard, telling them 'don't take it personal' or 'you couldn't have done anything.' Here's the thing: I am in full agreement with them. Thessia fell before Shepard arrived. The beacon in the temple was no magic 'I win' bomb. Even if Cerberus hadn't stolen the data, the planet was still under assault from a full invasion force of Reaper troops and at least one Sovereign class Reaper (most likely there were more we didn't see), which in ME1 took entire FLEETS to take down, and lucked out with Sovereign devoting much of its processing power to fighting Shepard via Saren's corpse. Shepard did everything they could, and from my perspective shouldn't be beating themselves up over this. But that's what I get from their dialogue. Direct quote from Shepard: "Thessia's fallen and that's on me." NO. IT. IS. NOT. There is a whole chain of responsibility to Thessia's fall, at least five links in it before we can think of getting to Shepard.

 

And as for Liara with Javik, she was looking at him not as an individual, but as the Wise Prothean Elder. She says explicitly 'you were supposed to have all the answers!' during that confrontation. She is blaming Javik for not being what she expected of him and the protheans, and he's having none of it - he's not responsible for her pre-judgments of his species, seen through her own lens (she makes it clear on Eden Prime, she is viewing the protheans based on what she wants to see - 'They uplifted countless other species to help them join the galactic community. The protheans wanted other species to learn. It's clear that they prized knowledge, growth, and cooperation with the rest of the galaxy.' Take the paragon choice after that, she admits she's coloring them on her own perceptions. She wants Javik to be what she wants the protheans to be, and gets mad at him for not being that. Javik himself is in the midst of his own PTSD of learning that he is the LAST PROTHEAN IN THE UNIVERSE, that everyone he knew before is long dead and what remains of his species have been turned into servants of the same machines that they once fought. The whole game, Liara wants to treat him as a lab specimen, a living archive she can peruse at her leisure, and Javik has no patience for it because he's STILL PROCESSING this loss. Liara is lashing out at Javik for not having answers she wanted him to have, and not liking the ones he did have.

[Farangbaa]

100% agree! I want biotic look more like in first ME.

Looks I'm fine with, but not the way they actually worked.

Biotics were ridiculously overpowered in ME1. A fully equiped and properly leveled Liara + Biotic Shepard could float entire groups enemies indefinetly with singularities.

Lift is even worse.

Hell, even the final battle you could have Saren float for almost the entire time if you had Shep, Liara and Kaidan. (with lifts, Singularities don't work)