567 réponses à ce sujet

[SofaJockey]

Ha.

No.

[In Exile]

I don't think I have much more to say about this. However, I don't agree that the physics in Mass Effect is a complete joke. You say it yourself, that there are ways to make your physics more or less of a joke. Mass Effect introduced some interesting concepts, while at the same time making an effort to explain how things worked. I really appreciated this aspect of ME.

 

Mass Effect does a much better job than Star Wars when trying to explain how things work.

 

No, it doesn't. The science is gibberish. The concepts are impossible, and often don't make any sense, or are outright magic (again, mind reading asari). It's just technobabble. Again, Mass Effect is just Han Solo's speech about parsecs. It's the writers using terms they don't even come close to understanding to explain a phemoneon totally above their pay grade.

 

There are ways to make physics less of a joke, but not the way Mass Effect did it.

 

I get that you personally feel the science is more legitimate when the writers invent technobable and occasionally talk about some legitimate scientific phemonenon, but that doesn't make it any different from Star Wars (or Star Trek, which also operates on space magic).

 

There is a difference between the concept of reducing the mass of space, in an effort to achieve FTL speed, and the concept of synthesis, which is an attempt to merge the DNA of all lifeforms in one glorious firework. The idea of reducing the mass of space is born from the premiss that we can't travel through space faster than the speed of light, and they decided to take this fact into account - instead they played around with the concept of manipulating space-time, which actually has some support in scientific circles. By support I mean that it's theoretically possible to manipulate space, since space itself has substance

There's absolutely no difference, other than the fact that you think the complete magical nonsense gibberish they invent to address a more legitimate sci-fi problem (how to ignore that the rules of physics as they exist totally preclude FTL) to creating cyborgs.

 

"Manipulating" space time is nonsense. When scientists talk about wormholes, they're not talking about manipulations in any meaningful sense of the world. It's a naturally occuring phenomenon (we think, theoretically) that (we think, theoretically) we might be able to artificially replicate as a means of travel.

 

What ME talks about, we know, right now, is completely impossible, and as the intellectual equivalent of saying "Space travel is possible because the Space Wizard Gorgoth changed the speed of light back in 2157 to make it more convenient for space travel."

 

The only difference with synthesis is that it was introduced in a stupid way, it solved a problem no one cared about or even thought was a problem, it had no built up, and less science-fiction before it used complete gibberish nonsense to justify or address this plot point.

[CronoDragoon]

No, it doesn't. The science is gibberish. The concepts are impossible, and often don't make any sense, or are outright magic (again, mind reading asari). It's just technobabble. Again, Mass Effect is just Han Solo's speech about parsecs. It's the writers using terms they don't even come close to understanding to explain a phemoneon totally above their pay grade.

To add on to this a bit, even the writers themselves don't mind admitting this:

Dark Energy was something that only organics could access because of various techno-science magic reasons we hadn't decided on yet.

- Drew K talking about the dropped dark energy ending.

[AlanC9]

I was about due for a new sig. I think that's it.

[Xaijin]

I've always been a huge fan of IT, the main reason being I have a hard time accepting that Shepard (and all his team) is somehow immune to indoctrination with no explanation other than his/her superhuman willpower. It seems silly to me that after countless cycles and millions of years Shepard is super special.


The only idea I can think of that when merging with the Thorian some form of resistance to indoctrination was implanted due to the Thorians unique physiology.




Another reason is I think it would have been a really cool twist. And many things like the dream sequences and the scenes with the boy in the beginning really seem to back it up.



It's almost like the team behind doing the cinematics was designing the scenes that way. Maybe they knew how terrible the writers ' endings were and tried to instil their own in the game lol!


Unfortunately It seems unlikely at this point that IT is correct. Its a shame to me.

It's not a cool twist, and saying "oh you can't beat the reapers because magic space mind magic is just as stupid as "Shepard is immune cause reasons" especially in the face of two different telepathic race saying directly to shepard "your mind doesn't work like the rest, what the **** is up with you, why are you unique" in canon. IT is just incredibly cartoonishly lazy tvtropes level wankery, and saying "the endings are laughably bad but this theory that is even more laughably bad is so much better" isn't helping any attempted appreciation of it, much akin to "oh noes the Synthesis ending is technoslavery, but that part where the geth are directly and completely integrating with quarians to boost their immune system is totally <3 <3 <3 omg cyberwaifus uguu kawaii~~~".

Forest for trees, IT is blind to it.

Whether the endings are magic or not is immaterial to the endings removing any existence of player agency to craft their story on BW's framework, and the IT theory is even more insulting because it flatly states the player never had any agency to begin with, well hell, why am I even playing this game again?

It is simply desperation given given fan fiction wankery form incarnate, the best part being the user whom started theory was openly trolling, which means there was never a foundation for an exegesis to begin with right alongside [ZuluDFA] "cerberus is actually space jesus, you're just misunderstanding all those cutscenes where they openly slaughter civilians, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT".[/ZuluDFA]

right.

[ReadingRambo220]

It's not a cool twist, and saying "oh you can't beat the reapers because magic space mind magic is just as stupid as "Shepard is immune cause reasons" especially in the face of two different telepathic race saying directly to shepard "your mind doesn't work like the rest, what the **** is up with you, why are you unique" in canon. IT is just incredibly cartoonishly lazy tvtropes level wankery, and saying "the endings are laughably bad but this theory that is even more laughably bad is so much better" isn't helping any attempted appreciation of it, much akin to "oh noes the Synthesis ending is technoslavery, but that part where the geth are directly and completely integrating with quarians to boost their immune system is totally <3 <3 <3 omg cyberwaifus uguu kawaii~~~".

Forest for trees, IT is blind to it.

Whether the endings are magic or not is immaterial to the endings removing any existence of player agency to craft their story on BW's framework, and the IT theory is even more insulting because it flatly states the player never had any agency to begin with, well hell, why am I even playing this game again?

It is simply desperation given given fan fiction wankery form incarnate, the best part being the user whom started theory was openly trolling, which means there was never a foundation for an exegesis to begin with right alongside [ZuluDFA] "cerberus is actually space jesus, you're just misunderstanding all those cutscenes where they openly slaughter civilians, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT".[/ZuluDFA]

right.

Well, the whole point of IT is that if you choose the destroy option you break free of indoctrination, and only get the cutscene after accumulating many EMS points; meaning all your past decisions culminate to breaking free.

But I do so your point. It is interesting to me that Shepard seems special, and that the Reapers and Leviathan are interested in him because of it.

I just wish there was an explanation for it beyond good breeding.

[Dantriges]

He is already completely controlled by the enigmatic player, an out of universe entitiy, composed of many minds.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

How is it possible to have a worse idea than one that is directly contradicted by the aftermath all 4 of the endings (assuming you aren't covering your eyes/ears and shouting "nanananananana" as being a valid argument)?

An awful explanation isn't any good just because it is attempting to explain something that was pretty poorly elucidated in the first place.

 

You know, I have no particular interest in the IT. I'd take it in headcanon as far as saying any of the other choices besides Destroy were the result of my shepard being indoctrinated and manipulated into doing what the reapers wanted.

 

Some of you, on the other hand, are ragging on the IT people, complaining about how they are still talking about it after 3 years, but here you are complaining right back. So what if it's a dumb theory? Let it go.

[MrStoob]

Now look what you've done!

Indoctrination 'Theory'...

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

 

 

but that part where the geth are directly and completely integrating with quarians to boost their immune system is totally <3 <3 <3 omg cyberwaifus uguu kawaii~~~".
 

 

I'm lost here. I only played through the game once, and don't remember anything about quarians integrating with geth?

 

I don't remember how the synthesis ending was explained either, but wasn't it something like 'organic and synthetic DNA merging'? Because if that was it, the levels of stupid are blinding.

[Dantriges]

I happen to be a criminal defense attorney. And no job is mangled more in the name of entertainment than mine.
 

 

Where are the doctiors and detectives on the mangling scale?

[jonathon.jenkins]

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. 

The ending for ME3 was bad and unless you wrap up the 

ending why should I commit to a new game.

[Jay P]

Where are the doctiors and detectives on the mangling scale?

Apologies to the doctors.

As to detectives, well I've met enough of them that nothing on tv seems that implausible

[Xaijin]

I'm lost here. I only played through the game once, and don't remember anything about quarians integrating with geth?
 
I don't remember how the synthesis ending was explained either, but wasn't it something like 'organic and synthetic DNA merging'? Because if that was it, the levels of stupid are blinding.

If you talk to Tali right after the peace accord between both, she explains that quarians are using geth programs in their suits to simulate low grade infections and antibody responses to rebuild quarian immunity, and that within several years envirosuits on Rannoch will be ceremonial, not functional because it's already producing positive results.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

If you talk to Tali right after the peace accord between both, she explains that quarians are using geth programs in their suits to simulate low grade infections and antibody responses to rebuild quarian immunity, and that within several years envirosuits on Rannoch will be ceremonial, not functional because it's already producing positive results.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. In that case, 'integrating' with the geth is a stretch. Sounds like the geth are tuning their suits, not merging physically or something.

[Spacepunk01]

No, it doesn't. The science is gibberish. The concepts are impossible, and often don't make any sense, or are outright magic (again, mind reading asari). It's just technobabble. Again, Mass Effect is just Han Solo's speech about parsecs. It's the writers using terms they don't even come close to understanding to explain a phemoneon totally above their pay grade.

 

There are ways to make physics less of a joke, but not the way Mass Effect did it.

 

I get that you personally feel the science is more legitimate when the writers invent technobable and occasionally talk about some legitimate scientific phemonenon, but that doesn't make it any different from Star Wars (or Star Trek, which also operates on space magic).

 

There's absolutely no difference, other than the fact that you think the complete magical nonsense gibberish they invent to address a more legitimate sci-fi problem (how to ignore that the rules of physics as they exist totally preclude FTL) to creating cyborgs.

 

"Manipulating" space time is nonsense. When scientists talk about wormholes, they're not talking about manipulations in any meaningful sense of the world. It's a naturally occuring phenomenon (we think, theoretically) that (we think, theoretically) we might be able to artificially replicate as a means of travel.

 

What ME talks about, we know, right now, is completely impossible, and as the intellectual equivalent of saying "Space travel is possible because the Space Wizard Gorgoth changed the speed of light back in 2157 to make it more convenient for space travel."

 

The only difference with synthesis is that it was introduced in a stupid way, it solved a problem no one cared about or even thought was a problem, it had no built up, and less science-fiction before it used complete gibberish nonsense to justify or address this plot point.

 

I hear you. I can see where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just wanted to see if you would acknowledge some of the nuances here.

 

I'm just trying to convey that there's a qualitative difference between the magic in Harry Potter and the concept of reducing the mass of space in ME. The difference is that we know for a fact that space has mass - and that BioWare actually acknowledged this fact. BioWare very creatively extrapolated from this fact (science) a concept of reducing the mass of space (fiction), in an effort to explain FTL travel. I can recognize this concept and that makes a big difference to me, because I know that the concept is derived from facts about the nature of reality. 

 

If this doesn't matter to you, then I understand that. We have a different point of view and that's just fine.

[v0rt3x22]

I think it would be foolish to ignore indoctrination (the theme of it, not the theory) - in Andromeda as it was a huge part of the plot in the original trilogy.

 

I also think there's an opportunity to talk more about the origins of the Leviathans.

 

As for my thoughts on the Indoctrination Theory - you do not include a scene with (presumably Shepard) moving when you choose the destroy ending - without reason.

 

I would not support a move in which the developers only included such a scene to cause speculation and discussion and leave it at that.

It has caused a huge split among the community in my opinion and I would sincerely hope the developers will resolve this in the future - because it still can. Not necessarily in Andromeda but perhaps at a later point.

 

I do not support the idea of implementing something in a game that will cause speculation but no resolve.

It was even famously acknowledged by Bioware that the "nameplate" scene at the end of ME3 was the crew not believing in Shepard's death. 

I do not have to play Shepard in future installments but I'm not a fan of being left in the dark.

 

 

[78stonewobble]

Extended Cut disproves Indoctrination Theory, as you get the narrated slideshow explaining the repercussions of your choices.

It was not in Shepard's mind, it was real.

 

Unless offcourse the narrated slideshow is the imaginings of shepard as well. Kinda like you might not be reading this on a computer screen, but be a brain in a jar, imagining reading this on a computerscreen. 

 

Not that I subscribe to indoctrination theory at all. 

[Xaijin]

Thanks for clearing that up. In that case, 'integrating' with the geth is a stretch. Sounds like the geth are tuning their suits, not merging physically or something.

 

 

Quarians interface with their suits through cybernetic implants, the geth are literally inside THEM, not their suits. Again saying synthesis is slavery/sux and IT is magical rainbows for everyone is literally ignoring the parts of the story you don't like and then making up extra **** out of headcanon to fill the gaps you yourself created, which is, in a word, obgoddamntuse.

 

"you" in this instance is theoretical.

[AlanC9]

Unless offcourse the narrated slideshow is the imaginings of shepard as well. Kinda like you might not be reading this on a computer screen, but be a brain in a jar, imagining reading this on a computerscreen.

Not that I subscribe to indoctrination theory at all.

Yeah, that's the great thing about IT. It's evidence-proof, since any evidence against it can be handwaved away as just more indoctrination

[AlanC9]

I
As for my thoughts on the Indoctrination Theory - you do not include a scene with (presumably Shepard) moving when you choose the destroy ending - without reason.
 

The reason is that Shepard survived.

[Rhaenyss]

What IF --- Shepard is alive at high EMS Destroy ending because 1. it's a reward for reaching high EMS, 2. the only ending that has Shepard in some physical form is Destroy. I know, groundbreaking theory.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Shepard being called special that's like indoctrination 101. Sovereign did it to Saren too. "Sovereign needs me." Make them think they're stronger than others so they let their guard down.

[Eryri]

I've always been a huge fan of IT, the main reason being I have a hard time accepting that Shepard (and all his team) is somehow immune to indoctrination with no explanation other than his/her superhuman willpower. It seems silly to me that after countless cycles and millions of years Shepard is super special.
The only idea I can think of that when merging with the Thorian some form of resistance to indoctrination was implanted due to the Thorians unique physiology.
Another reason is I think it would have been a really cool twist. And many things like the dream sequences and the scenes with the boy in the beginning really seem to back it up.
It's almost like the team behind doing the cinematics was designing the scenes that way. Maybe they knew how terrible the writers ' endings were and tried to instil their own in the game lol!
Unfortunately It seems unlikely at this point that IT is correct. Its a shame to me.

Indeed. Shepard's indoctrination seems such a natural development for a story where the antagonists are mind-controlling Lovecraftian horrors, that not making him fall prey to it feels like a perverse waste of potential drama. Instead we appear to be throwing all that away for an ancillary side story in another galaxy, the whole Milky Way will be left in narrative limbo and ME3's ending will continue to look like an unredeemed mess. It seems a shame to me too.

Regarding the bolded however, ME3 itself proves that Shepard can't be totally immune to indoctrination, or TIM would never have been able to force him to shoot Anderson. Although this was a non-standard form of indoctrination, perhaps more akin to the Dominate ability, Shepard still displayed the classic symptoms of headache and disturbed vision.

Incidentally, this has rather worrying implications for high EMS destroy. Indoctrination is shown to be a progressive and irreversible degenerative condition, that after a certain point becomes self-sustaining even without close proximity to Reapers. This is demonstrated by TIM, who was exposed to a Reaper artefact decades before the trilogy, and by the Asari research scientist, who's name I forget, that worked for Saren on Virmire and later for Oakeer, but didn't display symptoms of indoctrination until an ME3 codex entry revealed that she went on a killing spree. So even with every Reaper dead, Shepard will possibly continue to experience symptoms... A depressing thought, and unlikely to be one that Bioware intended, but one with some basis in the game's lore.

As to the breath scene being a reward for high EMS, I will admit to finding it odd to give a pat on the back to players who, apparently, chose to commit genocide. It doesn't strike me as something that a company with Bioware's liberal credentials would want to applaud. Particularly when it requires so much more EMS than the supposedly golden ending that ends the conflict once and for all.

And Shepard physically surviving that ending, explosive fireball and all, while the other two require his disintegration just to copy his mind or DNA (can't he just spit in the damn beam?) doesn't exactly make a huge amount of sense to me either. But then neither did the Lazarus project or the explanation for biotics, so par for the course really.

[WillieStyle]

The best argument against indoctrination theory is that it would be received as Bioware making the nontrivial subset of their fans who chose control/synthesis look like idiots after said fans were assured that control/synthesis were developer-approved endings.  The simple law of "Bioware isn't a company full of financially-suicidal morons" proves that this is not something Bioware would do.  Ergo, indoctrination theory was not the intent of the developers.  

 

That said, some version of IT was my assumption the first time I beat the game. I was thinking, "this kid has to be Harbinger trying to trick me.  Well I'm not falling for you crap Harbinger! [shoots tube]"