3626 réponses à ce sujet

[Panda]

So how exactly do you propose they objectify women? I'm drawing a blank here.

 

OP hasn't mentioned that they objectify women. It seems like he just wants both male and female characters dressed according to situation, armor to battle, mask on when you are in toxic/radiation etc. area etc. ME2 didn't have that for either for sexes, Jacob and Thane didn't wear armor like Miranda and Jack didn't either.

 

I don't know if this would always be a negative exactly. It certainly can be, but not always. For example the martial arts manga/anime Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple has the relationship between two of the main characters start with this situation, with both sides of this being shown. I can go into more detail if anyone is curious. 

 

I do think it's always negative, but if you want to go more detail on your viewpoint feel free.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I do think it's always negative, but if you want to go more detail on your viewpoint feel free.

Well, the story arc goes like this. 

 

Kisara is a girl who has always loved martial arts, being the best in her co-ed martial arts class. This strength gives her great pride in herself. One time at a tournament, she wins the championship against the best male of that martial arts in the division. However she was walking by ans she overhears the guy's friends asking if he threw the fight, and to cover himself he lies and says he did. This seriously hurts Kisara's self-respect and pride in her skills. As a result, she joins a street gang of martial artists because "Don't you just love street fighting? No protective equipment like gloves or helmets to get in the way, and no rules to hide behind so you can't cop out and say you lost on purpose." A while later Kisara goes against the protagonist of the series Kenichi, who says he has made a vow not to fight women. This angers Kisara, seeing it as sexist and stuff like that pisses her off. She starts to wail on him, seeing how long he will stay cool with his 'macho' attitude but he never retaliates, saying that "I understand that you have your pride, but I have my principles.". After the fight Kisara reflects on what happened and eventually realizes that "he wasn't patronizing me or trying to be cool. He was just trying to stick to what he believed in." The two characters eventually become allies and friends later in the series. 

 

The series delivers better context than just a synopsis, but I really liked how it showed both viewpoints as equally valid, and showing the dark side of each viewpoint, rather than merely having one side be good and one side be bad. 

[Panda]

Well, the story arc goes like this. 

 

Kisara is a girl who has always loved martial arts, being the best in her co-ed martial arts class. This strength gives her great pride in herself. One time at a tournament, she wins the championship against the best male of that martial arts in the division. However she was walking by ans she overhears the guy's friends asking if he threw the fight, and to cover himself he lies and says he did. This seriously hurts Kisara's self-respect and pride in her skills. As a result, she joins a street gang of martial artists because "Don't you just love street fighting? No protective equipment like gloves or helmets to get in the way, and no rules to hide behind so you can't cop out and say you lost on purpose." A while later Kisara goes against the protagonist of the series Kenichi, who says he has made a vow not to fight women. This angers Kisara, seeing it as sexist and stuff like that pisses her off. She starts to wail on him, seeing how long he will stay cool with his 'macho' attitude but he never retaliates, saying that "I understand that you have your pride, but I have my principles.". After the fight Kisara reflects on what happened and eventually realizes that "he wasn't patronizing me or trying to be cool. He was just trying to stick to what he believed in." The two characters eventually become allies and friends later in the series. 

 

The series delivers better context than just a synopsis, but I really liked how it showed both viewpoints as equally valid, and showing the dark side of each viewpoint, rather than merely having one side be good and one side be bad. 

 

Tthat doesn't tell what the reason was why Kenichi had this principle, since those come from personal views that can be sexist. I can't still see it as sth positive.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Tthat doesn't tell what the reason was why Kenichi had this principle, since those come from personal views that can be sexist. I can't still see it as sth positive.

Because some people don't like hurting others. Kenichi only ever fights even men in self-defense. He only took up martial arts because he wants to be able to protect his family and friends. There was no sexism. People immediately seeing sexism was part of what that story was addressing. 

[Panda]

Because some people don't like hurting others. Kenichi only ever fights even men in self-defense. He only took up martial arts because he wants to be able to protect his family and friends. There was no sexism. People immediately seeing sexism was part of what that story was addressing. 

 

What if he needs to protect them from women or use defense himself against women though?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What if he needs to protect them from women or use defense himself against women though?

Well, he used himself as a literal meat shield when that happened, like during the fight with Kisara I referenced. 

[Panda]

Well, he used himself as a literal meat shield when that happened, like during the fight with Kisara I referenced. 

 

But why? If he fights to only defend his family and himself why he doesn't do that against women as well?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But why? If he fights to only defend his family and himself why he doesn't do that against women as well?

Because he was never in a position during the events of the series where he would have to sacrifice his principles to do so.

Plus to be honest his greatest skill is how resilient he is. He can't be kept down. 

 

But I feel you're fishing for a particular answer, since I gave you my viewpoint and a series who shares that viewpoint and now you are trying to dissect it. So let's cut to the chase: What do you looking for?

[Panda]

Because he was never in a position during the events of the series where he would have to sacrifice his principles to do so.

Plus to be honest his greatest skill is how resilient he is. He can't be kept down. 

 

But I feel you're fishing for a particular answer, since I gave you my viewpoint and a series who shares that viewpoint and now you are trying to dissect it. So let's cut to the chase: What do you looking for?

 

I'm looking for reason behind his principles. Why he doesn't fight nor self-defense himself against women, what is the reasoning behing it and if that reason can be sth else than seeing women as weak or needing protection or seeing it sth wrong to men to do (=gentlemanliness, "man can't hit women" etc.).

[SnakeCode]

Male disposability is beneficial to women in ways, however I don't know if I can see it as something positive to anyone. Because the thought behind it most likely is that women are weaker and in need of protection. Also it comes from very traditional gender roles and what is seen as place of woman and man. Babymaker and homekeeper versus protector of family, in bad and good both. You can see it in some games and anime's, characters being "gentlemen" and refusing to fight against female character who is capable fighter as well. Or characters in game questioning capabliness of your female PC based on gender like what happened in ME2. It's just sth I can't see as positive.

 

I fail to see how a woman's life being held in higher regard than a man's is sexist towards women tbh. Even today in 2015, should the absolute worst come to pass, it's expected that men may have to die so that a woman can live, and its women, not men who should feel slighted by that?

 

It has nothing to do with any cultural or societal beliefs that women as a group are weak, and all to do with women being able to give birth. As well as the relatively large gestation period. A human life can only be created every nine months or so, and women also have a limited number of eggs, whilst a man's sperm is constantly replenishing.

 

Imagine for a second that there was an impending nuclear holocaust, and there is only one bomb shelter in the world that would guarantee survival. The catch? It has a maximum capacity of ten. Would you put one woman and nine men in there? How about five of each? Neither would happen, with a focus on preserving the human race there would be nine women and one guy placed in that bunker, to maximize the amount of offspring that could be made. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm looking for reason behind his principles. Why he doesn't fight nor self-defense himself against women, what is the reasoning behing it and if that reason can be sth else than seeing women as weak or needing protection or seeing it sth wrong to men to do (=gentlemanliness, "man can't hit women" etc.).

It's just a personal choice of his. It's not fueled by sexism, since he doesn't object to other guys fighting girls and he knows there are women stronger than him and they can do anything men can do. For example his idol and inspiration for learning martial arts is a girl.

He also has a principle for not hitting people with glasses. Does there need to be a reason for that too? 

[Kotor3onPS4]

personally I didn't give a damn about this game and its sexual outfits and wasn't a big deal my big deal is killing Commander Shepard to tell you the truth I don't even care if I have have a naked character in this game with it doesn't matter personally the Mass Effect franchise died when they killed Commander Shepard but I hope in this one at least we get to see some friendly faces such as Miranda Lawson and Jack and Liara and Tali Zorah and I didn't care for the multiplayer for Mass Effect 3 and I hope there's a better story and a lot more fully customizable details in this game otherwise I think its dead and I don't care

[Panda]

I fail to see how a woman's life being held in higher regard than a man's is sexist towards women tbh. Even today in 2015, should the absolute worst come to pass, it's expected that men may have to die so that a woman can live, and its women, not men who should feel slighted by that?

 

It has nothing to do with any cultural or societal beliefs that women as a group are weak, and all to do with women being able to give birth. As well as the relatively large gestation period. A human life can only be created every nine months or so, and women also have a limited number of eggs, whilst a man's sperm is constantly replenishing.

 

Imagine for a second that there was an impending nuclear holocaust, and there is only one bomb shelter in the world that would guarantee survival. The catch? It has a maximum capacity of ten. Would you put one woman and nine men in there? How about five of each? Neither would happen, with a focus on preserving the human race there would be nine women and one guy placed in that bunker, to maximize the amount of offspring that could be made. 

 

I see men going war more than women being just traditional gender roles that are negative. Also I don't agree with men have to die so women can live notion. When war breaks out none isn't safe. Cities are bombed in verge of destruction. Children are sent to rural areas or abroad to safety or used to work for country. Women take care of all work men have left, work produce weaponry and other stuff needed for war, keep the country running and many of them follow men to the battle field as messagers, nurses and so on. That's usually what happens when country is in war, everyone contributes and lot of people get killed, not only on battlefield, but also in cities. The gender division of work in war is just very clear, which might not be ideal nor fair.

 

None wants to be baby-popper either so I don't really think women who are saved to continue the species are very lucky here. And only thing where that would matter is when human species are endangered and that won't happen without huge catastrophe. I don't personally see that unfair to the men then.

 

It's just a personal choice of his. It's not fueled by sexism, since he doesn't object to other guys fighting girls and he knows there are women stronger than him and they can do anything men can do. For example his idol and inspiration for learning martial arts is a girl.

He also has a principle for not hitting people with glasses. Does there need to be a reason for that too? 

 

People simply have reasons behind their principles, you don't usually just decide to not do sth in rest of your life. For both not fighting against women and people in glasses. But alright, it seems to be personal choice that is not explained then ^^

[Kotor3onPS4]

oh my god no one gives a crap it doesn't matter if they're wearing clothes or not regardless it shouldn't matter about the character's appearance it's more about the story telling and the gameplay family guy who owns this purse quit being a douchebag and removing my quotes

[SardaukarElite]

I fail to see how a woman's life being held in higher regard than a man's is sexist towards women tbh.

 

Because when women choose to do something that's one of the reasons that men (and sometimes other women) use to prevent them from doing it.

 

 

Imagine for a second that there was an impending nuclear holocaust, and there is only one bomb shelter in the world that would guarantee survival. The catch? It has a maximum capacity of ten. Would you put one woman and nine men in there? How about five of each? Neither would happen, with a focus on preserving the human race there would be nine women and one guy placed in that bunker, to maximize the amount of offspring that could be made. 

 

That's ridiculous. You'd go five and five because it's stable. You have the most genetic diversity, you can afford everyone to get pregnant at the same time and you have the most tolerance for random things (disease, childbirth, radioactive cockroaches) killing either gender.

 

Sexism is mostly based on fear and ignorance, not logic.

[Kotor3onPS4]

hey I'm a woman I have no problem with the appearances of characters in games because I look at it as just a game it's not like I'm actually naked on some games or something there's guys that make games want to have a hot looking female character then that's the only time I do not mind but at the same time I'm not going to get mad for inappropriate outfits on characters in games

[animedreamer]

Well, the story arc goes like this. 

 

Kisara is a girl who has always loved martial arts, being the best in her co-ed martial arts class. This strength gives her great pride in herself. One time at a tournament, she wins the championship against the best male of that martial arts in the division. However she was walking by ans she overhears the guy's friends asking if he threw the fight, and to cover himself he lies and says he did. This seriously hurts Kisara's self-respect and pride in her skills. As a result, she joins a street gang of martial artists because "Don't you just love street fighting? No protective equipment like gloves or helmets to get in the way, and no rules to hide behind so you can't cop out and say you lost on purpose." A while later Kisara goes against the protagonist of the series Kenichi, who says he has made a vow not to fight women. This angers Kisara, seeing it as sexist and stuff like that pisses her off. She starts to wail on him, seeing how long he will stay cool with his 'macho' attitude but he never retaliates, saying that "I understand that you have your pride, but I have my principles.". After the fight Kisara reflects on what happened and eventually realizes that "he wasn't patronizing me or trying to be cool. He was just trying to stick to what he believed in." The two characters eventually become allies and friends later in the series. 

 

The series delivers better context than just a synopsis, but I really liked how it showed both viewpoints as equally valid, and showing the dark side of each viewpoint, rather than merely having one side be good and one side be bad. 

 

Hence Kisara was one of my favorite characters as well as Kenichi himself, though I admit I rarely like the main protagonist in any manga. 

 

What if he needs to protect them from women or use defense himself against women though?

 

Kenichi isn't  paralyzed by women, he will defend himself and others from a woman who is attacking, he just doesn't try to strike them. Arguably as was kind of mentioned was his ability to Defend, in fact his greatest skill as disciple class martial artist was his ability to Defend, especially after learning a technique that pretty much worked like a reflective barrier... again he will still do what he must  but he wont compromise those principles Daisy mentioned.

[The Elder King]

Hence Kisara was one of my favorite characters as well as Kenichi himself, though I admit I rarely like the main protagonist in any manga. 
 

 
Kenichi isn't  paralyzed by women, he will defend himself and others from a woman who is attacking, he just doesn't try to strike them. Arguably as was kind of mentioned was his ability to Defend, in fact his greatest skill as disciple class martial artist was his ability to Defend, especially after learning a technique that pretty much worked like a reflective barrier... again he will still do what he must  but he wont compromise those principles Daisy mentioned.

Yep. He's not against blocking/restraining them (like the Yomi Drunken Fist Martial artist).
Agreed on Kisara and Kenichi .

[animedreamer]

Yep. He's not against blocking/restraining them (like the Yomi Drunken Fist Martial artist).
Agreed on Kisara and Kenichi .

i almost forgot about her, Raichi was it? or something like that? found it, Li Raichi

[The Elder King]

i almost forgot about her, Rai-chi was it? or something like that?

Yep, I checked now. The Wiki calls her Raichi.

[Heathen Oxman]

I fail to see how a woman's life being held in higher regard than a man's is sexist towards women tbh. Even today in 2015, should the absolute worst come to pass, it's expected that men may have to die so that a woman can live, and its women, not men who should feel slighted by that?

 

It has nothing to do with any cultural or societal beliefs that women as a group are weak, and all to do with women being able to give birth. As well as the relatively large gestation period. A human life can only be created every nine months or so, and women also have a limited number of eggs, whilst a man's sperm is constantly replenishing.

 

Imagine for a second that there was an impending nuclear holocaust, and there is only one bomb shelter in the world that would guarantee survival. The catch? It has a maximum capacity of ten. Would you put one woman and nine men in there? How about five of each? Neither would happen, with a focus on preserving the human race there would be nine women and one guy placed in that bunker, to maximize the amount of offspring that could be made. 

 

Like most issues surrounding gender roles, it's a double-edged sword.  Yes, on one hand, women might be offered more protection; however........

 

Women being "valuable" because we can get pregnant has two major drawbacks:

 

1. Society sees you as nothing but a walking baby machine, and that your primary duty is to crap-out kids, regardless of how you feel about it.

 

2. This fun thing that happens in your 40s called "menopause" in which women are rendered incapable of producing healthy offspring, and are thereby made "useless" until we croak.

 

Ultimately, it's bullcrap no matter how you look at it, and the idea of men as the "disposable sex" can go die in a fire.

[Pasquale1234]

Like most issues surrounding gender roles, it's a double-edged sword.  Yes, on one hand, women might be offered more protection; however........
 
Women being "valuable" because we can get pregnant has two major drawbacks:
 
1. Society sees you as nothing but a walking baby machine, and that your primary duty is to crap-out kids, regardless of how you feel about it.

Which is why females must be presented in media as sexually available and breedable at all times, even on the battlefield. Never mind that going into battle in lingerie means they're actually not protected...
 

2. This fun thing that happens in your 40s called "menopause" in which women are rendered incapable of producing healthy offspring, and are thereby made "useless" until we croak.

At which point you become invisible, having no further social value.
 

Ultimately, it's bullcrap no matter how you look at it, and the idea of men as the "disposable sex" can go die in a fire.

I agree that we need to quit treating men as disposable - assuming that is what your statement intended to convey.

[RZIBARA]

So how exactly do you propose they objectify women? I'm drawing a blank here.

 

Read my post. First off it is not only to do with women. This applies to males as well.

 

Second, why the hell are soldiers running into combat in high heels, spandex, nude (with a leather strap)? It makes no sense and is impractical. That is not what you wear in warzone. On top of that, why do they also insist on wearing breathing masks over helmets in space (eyes are exposed, would that not kill you?), and not to mention Jack has her body skin exposed too. It's impractical.

[Hazegurl]

Because when women choose to do something that's one of the reasons that men (and sometimes other women) use to prevent them from doing it.

There is another perspective, is it always a case of people preventing women from doing certain things due to that reasoning or is it a case that the women who wish to do certain tasks aren't qualified to do it or women in general are deemed unqualified for the task.

 

ie The Marine Infantry Officer course.

 

None of the women were able to pass it.  Of course not every man passes it as well but they are at least capable of doing so.

[animedreamer]

Read my post. First off it is not only to do with women. This applies to males as well.

 

Second, why the hell are soldiers running into combat in high heels, spandex, nude (with a leather strap)? It makes no sense and is impractical. That is not what you wear in warzone. On top of that, why do they also insist on wearing breathing masks over helmets in space (eyes are exposed, would that not kill you?), and not to mention Jack has her body skin exposed too. It's impractical.

Barriers and Shields are the primary protective measures used by the advanced races of Mass Effects time, I've mentioned this before in another thread or this one, the armor they wear for those who do wear armor isn't necessarily for protection against firearms, as the majority of them aren't protective at all against the types of firearms used in Mass Effect. Yes Barriers and Shields also protect against environmental hazards as was demonstrated on Haestrom while rescuing Tali. Therefore armor as we know it is generally regulated to things like monitoring your vitals, communication and computers, and identifying who you work for. I'm not saying this excuses Miranda or Jack, or Samara/Morinth from covering their exposed skin but should explain why suits with additional hardware are just as viable in come cases in their universe (Quarians are a good go to example of suits/uniforms that function to keep them alive while in unnatural environments).