Started out as a thread about sexualisation, then people started getting mixed up with sexualisation and objectification. So examples of actual objectification were brought up, and there have been a few tangents on the side, the latest of which seems to be about exactly what biotic barriers can/can't protect against.
Well, then how can you use this as an argument?
"It's a game" and agreeing with someone else saying "it's a game" are somehow conflicting statements to make?
"It's a game" and agreeing with someone else saying "it's a game" are somehow conflicting statements to make?
Started out as a thread about sexualisation, then people started getting mixed up with sexualisation and objectification. So examples of actual objectification were brought up, and there have been a few tangents on the side, the latest of which seems to be about exactly what biotic barriers can/can't protect against.
OP should've worded the title better, instead of using the word "sexualization", which is typically a loaded inane leftist political term(like objektamafacation) that typically means "what men like".
Although it might just be a sign of the times on BSN and how far it's declined, back during the ME2 days it was merely a debate of proper armor vs idiotic comic book inspired "armor" without use of said terms and it degenerating like this.
You were saying someone's argument about gender was invalid because it is a computer game, yet using the same fact that a game involves killing faceless mooks to reinforce your gender argument.
Can't have it both ways.
No, my original point was that someone shouting "gender roles" in regards to dudes being the cannon fodder enemies was a trash argument. I believe I actually said as much earlier.
Actually, looking back, my *original* original point was challenging your statement of "men are not the disposable sex", before the living embodiment of cognitive dissonance came in and made it about gender roles.
I've said plenty of times that i'm a big advocate of female cannon fodder in games, but devs are in an incredibly difficult position. If they don't do it, people complain that they're saying women are too weak to fight and thus they are sexist. If they do include women as cannon fodder then people complain that they're advocating and glorifying violence against women, and thus they are sexist. It's a lose-lose situation.
I think it's mostly an issue in presentation. If I remember right GTAV's ban from Australian stores was specifically about violence against sex workers, who are disproportionate targets of violence in real life.
Games who present their female enemies in the same exact fashion as their male enemies (i.e. faceless grunts) are rarely met with such criticism. The Dragon Age and Mass Effect games have featured female enemies, including human women, and I don't think I've ever seen any article criticizing Bioware for promoting violence against women (though I think I remember there was a pretty lengthy thread about DAI's lack of female enemies around launch). Same goes for Bioshock Infinite, where there are female enemies in the two main factions (Police and Vox Populi). Bioshock Infinite was heavily criticized for its over-the-top violence, but I don't remember any article singling out or even mentioning the violence against female mooks.
In short I think it is very possible to include female cannon fodder, as long as they're treated pretty much the same as the male cannon fodder (as in no sex moans when in pain etc.)
No, my original point was that someone shouting "gender roles" in regards to dudes being the cannon fodder enemies was a trash argument. I believe I actually said as much earlier.
Actually, looking back, my *original* original point was challenging your statement of "men are not the disposable sex", before the living embodiment of cognitive dissonance came in and made it about gender roles.
Why do you think mainly (depending on game and developers ability to animate women) dudes are being cannon fodder enemies then if not gender roles? Cause I thought pretty much everyone was in same page in this one, I just thought those gender roles were more positive and some that they are negative.
Judging by the concept art of the female's twisted body on the shared concept piece - they've already failed. Sorry. 
^ I mean look at that nonsense! Where in the known world does anyone legimately stand like that?
Granted that may be more the fault of the concept artist than the team, but they're still having it front their announcement, so...
...and we saw what they did to Ash. Even if you change her combat kit: during cutscenes and on the ship, skin-tight armour, hair hanging limp over her shoulders, because they wanted, and I quote, "a little more sex appeal".
Judging by the concept art of the female's twisted body on the shared concept piece - they've already failed. Sorry.
Spoiler^ I mean look at that nonsense! Where in the known world does anyone legimately stand like that?
Granted that may be more the fault of the concept artist than the team, but they're still having it front their announcement, so...
...and we saw what they did to Ash. Even if you change her combat kit: during cutscenes and on the ship, skin-tight armour, hair hanging limp over her shoulders, because they wanted, and I quote, "a little more sex appeal".
Both characters are really cliche in that. The guy's whole "back your back to the camera looking over your shoulder" seems to be a very common pose for people to put men in marketing these days.
Though it's still a step up from Miranda, as the woman in that picture is actually wearing something that looks like armour.
Also she gets a Carnifex while the guy is stuck with a crappy Predator? BioWare pls.
Why do you think mainly (depending on game and developers ability to animate women) dudes are being cannon fodder enemies then if not gender roles? Cause I thought pretty much everyone was in same page in this one, I just thought those gender roles were more positive and some that they are negative.
Because I sincerely doubt "men are expendable and can die with no thought, who cares" is something that is commonly accepted as normal by the greater whole of most societies in the first world.
Because I sincerely doubt "men are expendable and can die with no thought, who cares" is something that is commonly accepted as normal by the greater whole of most societies in the first world.
So you don't think "men are expendable gender" exist IRL?
Both characters are really cliche in that. The guy's whole "back your back to the camera looking over your shoulder" seems to be a very common pose for people to put men in marketing these days.
Though it's still a step up from Miranda, as the woman in that picture is actually wearing something that looks like armour.
Also she gets a Carnifex while the guy is stuck with a crappy Predator? BioWare pls.
Yeah, that's a cliche stand for him, but that's fine, because he's not oddly contorted.
The Predator doesn't get as much love as it deserves.
Yeah, that's a cliche stand for him, but that's fine, because he's not oddly contorted.
The Predator doesn't get as much love as it deserves.
Only one Predator deserves love
Expendable isn't a great word to use, as most first world societies these days consider people much less expendable in general.
However there is still the idea that women need to be protected and that men should be the ones protecting them, even if it means putting their lives at risk. This extends to men being used as the cannon fodder, because it's seen as bad to kill women but men are fine because men are supposed to be fighting.
Yeah, that's a cliche stand for him, but that's fine, because he's not oddly contorted.
The Predator doesn't get as much love as it deserves.
Predator is okay, if you don't value your clicking finger =P
Predator is okay, if you don't value your clicking finger =P
I have a good enough trigger finger after all this time, but I love the Predator's quick reload and accuracy. I think it's a decent caster's companion, and plays very nicely with ammo powers. The Mattock is also up there too, and it's easily in my top 5 favorite weapons of the trilogy.
Aaaaaand this is why I try to avoid forums before release.
Dear Bioware, Please don't forget people like me exist and also have feelpinions that are rarely reflected on the message boards. Just make the game you want to make and make it fun to play in the way only Bioware can.
My
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Await access to your bank accounts.
I have a good enough trigger finger after all this time, but I love the Predator's quick reload and accuracy. I think it's a decent caster's companion, and plays very nicely with ammo powers. The Mattock is also up there too, and it's easily in my top 5 favorite weapons of the trilogy.
Depending on if you're playing MP or SP, the Arc Pistol has become very good in MP. Carnifex is also really strong in both.
The thing with the Predator is that on paper it looks much better than it is, because most people can't click at 500 RPM =P
Personally I like the Lancer.
I'm with ZZ2K.
I'll buy whatever they ship. 'cause I buy almost everything BW does. I may or may not be happy with my purchase, but they've got my $$ regardless.
You sure you read that right? I'm in no mood to buy Dragon Age 2 again. 
Yah. You want a great game and your willing to pay for it.
Me too.
I think it's mostly an issue in presentation. If I remember right GTAV's ban from Australian stores was specifically about violence against sex workers, who are disproportionate targets of violence in real life.
Games who present their female enemies in the same exact fashion as their male enemies (i.e. faceless grunts) are rarely met with such criticism. The Dragon Age and Mass Effect games have featured female enemies, including human women, and I don't think I've ever seen any article criticizing Bioware for promoting violence against women (though I think I remember there was a pretty lengthy thread about DAI's lack of female enemies around launch). Same goes for Bioshock Infinite, where there are female enemies in the two main factions (Police and Vox Populi). Bioshock Infinite was heavily criticized for its over-the-top violence, but I don't remember any article singling out or even mentioning the violence against female mooks.
In short I think it is very possible to include female cannon fodder, as long as they're treated pretty much the same as the male cannon fodder (as in no sex moans when in pain etc.)
Well, as I said, both Hatred and the God of War games treat women the same as men cannon fodder wise and both were accused of condoning violence against women. Bioware are exempt from this as they're the bastion of inclusivity. It would be silly to accuse Bioware of that sort of sexism.
Bioshock Infinite was fighting a completely different battle. I doubt people even noticed that the game had female mooks when they were complaining about a very overt case of "sexism," namely Elizabeth not being on the front cover/box art. That was a pretty big deal at the time.
I agree that it's possible to have devs release a game with female cannon fodder and not be labeled as sexist, but there's a pretty good chance that they will be.
Well, as I said, both Hatred and the God of War games treat women the same as men cannon fodder wise and both were accused of condoning violence against women. Bioware are exempt from this as they're the bastion of inclusivity. It would be silly to accuse Bioware of that sort of sexism.
Bioshock Infinite was fighting a completely different battle. I doubt people even noticed that the game had female mooks when they were complaining about a very overt case of "sexism," namely Elizabeth not being on the front cover/box art. That was a pretty big deal at the time.
I agree that it's possible to have devs release a game with female cannon fodder and not be labeled as sexist, but there's a pretty good chance that they will be.
Hatred has been criticized for it's over-the-top violence and its mass-murder simulator gameplay by a lot of people, but I actually haven't seen anyone mentioning violence against women in particular. Most articles mention 'civilians' and 'innocents', but not women in particular. I haven't looked pretty hard so I may have overlooked that particular criticism. From what I can tell about God of War (haven't played the games) the accusation is that the female enemies are unnecessarily sexualized compared to the male ones, or portrayed as helpless.
Bioshock Infinite had a lot of accusations of sexism leveled against it at the time (Elizabeth not on the cover, the 'damsel in distress' plot, her second outfit etc.), so you'd think it would have been easy to throw in the violence against women accusation alongside. Also I wouldn't say that Bioware is exempt from criticism when it comes to sexism. I've seen plenty of people criticizing Bioware's portrayal of women: the lack of female aliens in ME1-ME2, the concept of the asari as a whole, Miranda's butt-cam, Jack's romance with MaleShep etc.
Honestly most of the feminists I've seen who are not anti-violence in general (like Anita Sarkeesian) are all for the inclusion of female cannon fodder enemies, as long as they are not sexualized.
So to follow your thoughts here you want them to be objectified and be eye-candy in another way?
No,I'm not asking for any change. This isn't about what I want. This is all Bioware. All I'm saying is that if they aren't objectified as sexual objects by their clothing what alternative means of objectification is the OP offering? Like if you wanted to end taxation. I'd ask you for alternative means of funding the government.
Unless the OP is suggesting they simply don't objectify women (i.e. no government). But that's juts crazy talk.
Sexually objectifying women is not sth that is mandatory to have in games unlike having goverment is pretty mandatory to keep country running.
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