3626 réponses à ce sujet

[WildOrchid]

Not sure about lesbian part. As far as I've seen it's only boys problem that they want boobs to be thrown at their face. Lesbians I know don't have unstoppable urge to look at female body. 

 

Some do, though. Not everyone is the same.

[Gwydden]

"Most people" you mean straight men? You are speaking for straight men and how they would act if they see the dude in a bikini.

 

And I'm saying that some women would find that one hot. And gay dudes.

That doesn't surprise me at all. Straight men would probably find it ridiculous precisely because they wouldn't be attracted. And that's the exact same phenomena at work when women rail against chainmail bikinis even though many dudes find them sexy.

 

Let's try an exercise. Here's what I got when I googled female stripper and here's what showed up when I googled male stripper. Notice a difference in how they dress? If both perform the exact same function, why wouldn't they dress the same way? There's nothing objectively "sexier" about either of those sets of images. But there's still a general cultural perception of what makes a man and a woman attractive, and those two differ (and I haven't even gotten into how a male stripper's performance differs from a woman's). Of course not everyone adheres to those constructs 100%, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[daveliam]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Straight men would probably find it ridiculous precisely because they wouldn't be attracted. And that's the exact same phenomena at work when women rail against chainmail bikinis even though many dudes find them sexy.

 

Let's try an exercise. Here's what I got when I googled female stripper and here's what showed up when I googled male stripper. Notice a difference in how they dress? If both perform the exact same function, why wouldn't they dress the same way? There's nothing objectively "sexier" about either of those sets of images. But there's still a general cultural perception of what makes a man and a woman attractive, and those two differ (and I haven't even gotten into how a male stripper's performance differs from a woman's). Of course not everyone adheres to those constructs 100%, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

I'm not sure if I'm seeing a huge difference between those sets of images.  Both are scantily clad people, some of whom are in costumes ('sexy school girl', 'fireman', etc.).  The images look comparable to me. 

 

I'm not saying that the concept is wrong, just that the images don't really support it.  There is definitely something to the idea that men and women find different things to be sexy.  For example, male strippers for female audiences tend to more theatrical.  Think Magic Mike, where they have routines and costumes and stuff.  Male strippers for gay male audiences are more akin to strip clubs for straight guys.  It's more about 'sex' than 'fantasy'.  There usually aren't dance routines and costumes.  They are also way more likely to go nude (versus a speedo).  I agree that males tend to be more visual when it comes to what they find sexy.

 

All that being said, I don't think that any of this universal.  I have some straight female friends who are very visually oriented and are constantly directing me to sexy male images.  And I know some straight men who find excess skin on females to be tacky and tasteless and unattractive.  So I'm not really sure if any of this has much to do with Bioware games since the point isn't really overt sexuality. 

[Gwydden]

I'm not sure if I'm seeing a huge difference between those sets of images.  Both are scantily clad people, some of whom are in costumes ('sexy school girl', 'fireman', etc.).  The images look comparable to me. 

Try switching around those people's clothes. Picture a male stripper wearing panties and a bra and a female stripper wearing a speedo. I don't see a lot of that in those pictures, and when it does show up is usually meant to be, wait for it, humorous. I could definitely see some people who are attracted to the given sex enjoying a man wearing female underwear or vice versa. But it is not common to see that, and for people with the wrong attraction gradient it is usually just silly.

 

All that being said, I don't think that any of this universal.  I have some straight female friends who are very visually oriented and are constantly directing me to sexy male images.  And I know some straight men who find excess skin on females to be tacky and tasteless and unattractive.  So I'm not really sure if any of this has much to do with Bioware games since the point isn't really overt sexuality. 

Of course. I point it out because though, admittedly, women are sexualized more often than men in ME, the opposite also happens. Jacob and Thane are fairly obvious examples. I'm just trying to shoot down the implication that it only counts as sexualization if men are presented exactly the way women are.

[WildOrchid]

All that being said, I don't think that any of this universal.  I have some straight female friends who are very visually oriented and are constantly directing me to sexy male images.  And I know some straight men who find excess skin on females to be tacky and tasteless and unattractive.

 

And this was my point.

[Gwydden]

And this was my point.

Which I never argued against... 

[WildOrchid]

Which I never argued against... 

 

Not about this.

You're arguing that some women might not find men in a bikini hot, which hilariously some male strippers do wear bikinis in strip clubs. And i'm saying that it's all subjective on who finds what hot and attractive and what not. Humans are very diverse in their tastes. You also said this "I could definitely see some people who are attracted to the given sex enjoying a man wearing female underwear or vice versa", which is also my point.

 

I personally find women in tank tops sexier than in their bras.

 

Everything is subjective, I wouldn't consider culture as an example because of some of it's narrow-mindedness.

[78stonewobble]

Things that ruin my immersion way more than skimpy outfits ever could hope to do:

1. Interspecies sex
2. Nonsensical "science"
3. Deus Ex Machina
4. Shepard, the suest Sue who ever sued
5. The Illuminati, err, I mean, Cerberus
6. Ever so heroic military versus ever ineffectual politicians
7. The whole insane acid trip that is the ending
8. The most unprofessional military vessel I've ever seen in fiction
9. The deafening roar of explosions in deep space
10. How the hell is Shepard not indoctrinated yet?

To mention just a few. Most of the ME2 wearing informal wear when most of them would operate in urban areas anyway? I can live with it. This is why I don't take complains against skimpy outfits seriously. ME as a series has never been realistic. I don't think people complaining about this are being as objective as they think they are.

 

Just because there are problems with x, y and z, doesn't mean there can't be problems with a, b and c. 

 

To me, eg. mirandas cameltoe and butt, ruins the scenes, they're in... 

 

I also don't understand 1., I mean if we need rules against having sex with animals here on earth, it can't really be considered implausible that someone somewhere, might wanna bang an alien. 

[Gwydden]

You also said this "I could definitely see some people who are attracted to the given sex enjoying a man wearing female underwear or vice versa", which is also my point.

Exactly! I'm not arguing your point, and I don't know why you think I am 

 

Yes, when you go down to individual taste it is all highly subjective and you can find anything. I am describing trends and the general cultural view on things, which individuals may embrace or completely reject. I haven't even gotten into my own subjective preferences. The MGS picture that started this particular tangent? I agree it's silly and as a straight man, it doesn't do anything for me at all, and I think an actual uniform would work much better. But that's just the thing. I find it ridiculous, but other men find it sexy. It's just a subjective opinion. There's nothing inherently wrong with the devs going over the top. I certainly wouldn't take issue with a male character who spent the entire game scantily clad, or even wearing a thong. It might not be my cup of tea, but if so I'll just move on to greener pastures.

 

Just because there are problems with x, y and z, doesn't mean there can't be problems with a, b and c. 

 

To me, eg. mirandas cameltoe and butt, ruins the scenes, they're in... 

 

I also don't understand 1., I mean if we need rules against having sex with animals here on earth, it can't really be considered implausible that someone somewhere, might wanna bang an alien. 

There's a different between someone somewhere and everyone everywhere. Interspecies sex is not presented as a minority fetish, but as a perfectly common part of galactic society. If memory serves, there are six aliens (six!) Shepard can bang. To compare, there are nine humans. Not a huge difference there. This is almost never questioned.

 

It's silly fanservice that's been around since the beginning and gotten worse since. Just like impractical outfits actually. People seem much more concerned about one than the other, however. I guess we all draw the immersion line at a different spot.

 

So it's not that I don't have a problem with random butt shots and silly outfits. I have a problem with people not having a problem with other things that are just as problematic.

[Rhaenyss]

Just because there are problems with x, y and z, doesn't mean there can't be problems with a, b and c. 

 

To me, eg. mirandas cameltoe and butt, ruins the scenes, they're in... 

 

I also don't understand 1., I mean if we need rules against having sex with animals here on earth, it can't really be considered implausible that someone somewhere, might wanna bang an alien. 

 

Yeah, sex isn't necesarily penetration, so I would think Thane and Garrus would be able to follow simple instructions on how to satisfly Femshep (and vice versa).

 

As for other problems in the series, I think there are plenty of threads for that too, so?

[Pasquale1234]

I'm not saying that the concept is wrong, just that the images don't really support it.  There is definitely something to the idea that men and women find different things to be sexy.  For example, male strippers for female audiences tend to more theatrical.  Think Magic Mike, where they have routines and costumes and stuff.  Male strippers for gay male audiences are more akin to strip clubs for straight guys.  It's more about 'sex' than 'fantasy'.  There usually aren't dance routines and costumes.  They are also way more likely to go nude (versus a speedo).  I agree that males tend to be more visual when it comes to what they find sexy.

I suspect that at least some of this is due to the double standard that still isn't completely buried. Sl*t-shaming is still alive and well in many quarters - and even if you think you don't subscribe to that nonsense, it can still impact your choices. I mean, look at some of the slang terms used for females in some sub-cultures - they mostly have to do with sex, and are intended to de-humanize.

Also - performers are trying to play to what they think their audience wants, and in some cases have to deal with local obscenity laws - which are typically much more generous in what they allow wrt to lady bits than what is allowed wrt male bits.

[Steelcan]

 

I mean, look at some of the slang terms used for females in some sub-cultures - they mostly have to do with sex, and are intended to de-humanize.

that is the purpose of almost all slang terms intended to be derisive, its not a phenomenon unique to women in the slightest.

[Hathur]

Mass Effect 1 did it right, in my opinion. None of the crew was overtly sexualized at all (no absurd cat suits, exposed cleavage etc). They've shown they are willing to go the route once before... one can hope they'll do so again (and it's not because I'm prudish, far from it. I just find it utterly immersion breaking because it screams "teehee, here you go boys, boobies and butts for you to oggle while you try to save the galaxy") ... sigh.. it's tiresome. Have your boobies and butts in the game.. but save them for romance scenes, don't have a senior citizen Asari in stilettos running about slinging mass effect fields whilst her breasts threaten to flop out of her unzipped top.

[Pasquale1234]

I personally find women in tank tops sexier than in their bras.

I take it a step (or 10) further - professional attire. A woman dressed for career success is a huge turn-on for me, because I find highly motivated, highly competent, high achievers extremely appealing.

In that vein, a woman who is well-armored and looks like she belongs on a battlefield: Hot
A woman flashing T&A and dressed for her next gig on the pole at the local strip club: Not

[Pasquale1234]

that is the purpose of almost all slang terms intended to be derisive, its not a phenomenon unique to women in the slightest.

Are there any slang terms for men along the lines of sl*t, ho, or similar?

That's a serious, sincere question. Sexually active women are often denigrated for it, where the same behavior is encouraged in males.

[Gwydden]

Yeah, sex isn't necesarily penetration, so I would think Thane and Garrus would be able to follow simple instructions on how to satisfly Femshep (and vice versa).

I think you've misunderstood me. It's not so much the technical aspects that I have a problem with (though that's a discussion all of its own). It's that being attracted to aliens in the first place should be impossible, beyond a tiny minority of fetishists equivalent to those interested in banging animals in the real world. Intercourse outside of one's own species is useless, therefore we have turned out in such a way that we find other species unattractive in the first place.

 

And that refers to Terran animals, who we are related to and who have evolved alongside us. Chimps are the current species that look the most like us, and I don't see a lot of humans lining up to have sex with a chimp. So there's literally no chance that aliens would look human enough for the average person to want to bang them.

 

I found it barely tolerable in ME1 when it was only the asari. And why are the asari bangable, you ask? Fanservice! But then they had to take it too far. Oh, people like Garrus and Tali? Let's make them bangable too! Also, let's make quarians look almost exactly like humans as well, contrary to what we originally planned. And you know, women were a bit bummed out there wasn't fanservice for them before, so let's add the also extremely human looking and sexy drell to the cast.

 

It's out of control, I tell you. And it irritates me to no end. And it bums me out to know that it will never stop because people only take issue with unrealistic fanservice when it is about camera angles and clothing 

 

I take it a step (or 10) further - professional attire. A woman dressed for career success is a huge turn-on for me, because I find highly motivated, highly competent, high achievers extremely appealing.

In that vein, a woman who is well-armored and looks like she belongs on a battlefield: Hot
A woman flashing T&A and dressed for her next gig on the pole at the local strip club: Not

I hate, hate, hate ambition. I would hate people who put it on a pedestal too, if I was the hateful kind   And professional attire! Who ever thought that was a good idea? Especially ties. What sane person wants to put a choking hazard around their neck?

 

I agree for an entirely different reason. If clothing is not context appropriate my mind has a hard time dealing with the cognitive dissonance, too much for me to be able to consider it sexy.

[Rhaenyss]

Well, if you look at sex with aliens purely from the physical side, that might be true to you, but these aliens basically have human minds, they think and act like humans. Why wouldn't humans be interested in them? For some people sex happens with persons they're interested in, because they're interested and/or in love with them. Does that make sense?

[Gwydden]

Well, if you look at sex with aliens purely from the physical side, that might be true to you, but these aliens basically have human minds, they think and act like humans. Why wouldn't humans be interested in them? For some people sex happens with persons they're interested in, because they're interested and/or in love with them. Does that make sense?

Chimps have pretty complex emotions and can even communicate with humans and act a hell of a lot like them if taught. I'm sure there are some really smart, really sweet chimps out there. Do you want to date one yet?

 

Nevertheless, that's not what's going on here. I can almost buy the Garrus romance, because they didn't make him more human looking in order to have Shepard involved with him. It's making aliens fit human ideas of attractiveness so people can enjoy being Captain Kirk that I take issue with.

[Steelcan]

Are there any slang terms for men along the lines of sl*t, ho, or similar?

That's a serious, sincere question. Sexually active women are often denigrated for it, where the same behavior is encouraged in males.

Manwhore, mansl*t, and so on.  Nor is it always actively encouraged.  Despite the media's love for depicting young men as constantly seeking sex as much as possible its not universally popular.  Particularly since promiscuity often goes in hand with other questionable activities such as excessive drinking, drug use, unprotected sex, and so on.

[Pasquale1234]

I hate, hate, hate ambition. I would hate people who put it on a pedestal too, if I was the hateful kind   And professional attire! Who ever thought that was a good idea? Especially ties. What sane person wants to put a choking hazard around their neck?

I specifically avoided the use of the word ambition, because the term carries some negative connotations, typically associated with greed.

I also used the term professional attire rather than business attire on purpose. Professional attire could be armor, surgical scrubs, a lab coat, chef's apron, or team uniform. Or none of the above, depending on the specific career. I suppose that could include attire appropriate for someone in the sex industry, though I rarely find that appealing.

The person I'm trying to describe knows who she is and what she has to offer, and has developed the skillset, dedication, and work ethic needed to do something useful for humanity.

[Pasquale1234]

Manwhore, mansl*t, and so on.  Nor is it always actively encouraged.  Despite the media's love for depicting young men as constantly seeking sex as much as possible its not universally popular.  Particularly since promiscuity often goes in hand with other questionable activities such as excessive drinking, drug use, unprotected sex, and so on.

Thanks for the response.

I see so much love for coming-of-age films (like Porky's, etc.), and have never understood the appeal. Maybe they're trying to re-visit or make light of what is typically a very difficult and awkward time in most people's lives?

[Gwydden]

Thanks for the response.

I see so much love for coming-of-age films (like Porky's, etc.), and have never understood the appeal. Maybe they're trying to re-visit or make light of what is typically a very difficult and awkward time in most people's lives?

Frankly, I don't think promiscuous men are encouraged so much as tolerated. It's more of a "boys will be boys" kind of thing, something they will hopefully outgrow. Women, though, ought to be purer than that, and are therefore held to a higher standard.

 

It's all nonsense, of course.

[78stonewobble]

 

There's a different between someone somewhere and everyone everywhere. Interspecies sex is not presented as a minority fetish, but as a perfectly common part of galactic society. If memory serves, there are six aliens (six!) Shepard can bang. To compare, there are nine humans. Not a huge difference there. This is almost never questioned.

 

It's silly fanservice that's been around since the beginning and gotten worse since. Just like impractical outfits actually. People seem much more concerned about one than the other, however. I guess we all draw the immersion line at a different spot.

 

So it's not that I don't have a problem with random butt shots and silly outfits. I have a problem with people not having a problem with other things that are just as problematic.

 

There might be some "confirmation bias" there... The characters we interact with and .... well .... are ... have an unusual amount of interaction with aliens, presumably unlike the vast majority of people in the galaxy. 

 

Again... zoophiliacs are rare... but if you're on a farm.... and the right farm... the incidence rate will be drastically higher O.o...

[78stonewobble]

Are there any slang terms for men along the lines of sl*t, ho, or similar?

That's a serious, sincere question. Sexually active women are often denigrated for it, where the same behavior is encouraged in males.

 

I allways found that weeeird... Female friends of mine have sometimes been awkward about having had a one night stand... My standard reply has allways been: "Well was it good sex? Yes? *highfive* awesome!"

 

And if I ever heard people use the word "sl*t"... I'd allways comment: "pfffttt... can't be a bigger "sl*t" than me. Yeah, that's right ... uber sl*t here!". 

 

Yeah, I'm a guy. 

[Rhaenyss]

Chimps have pretty complex emotions and can even communicate with humans and act a hell of a lot like them if taught. I'm sure there are some really smart, really sweet chimps out there. Do you want to date one yet?

 

Nevertheless, that's not what's going on here. I can almost buy the Garrus romance, because they didn't make him more human looking in order to have Shepard involved with him. It's making aliens fit human ideas of attractiveness so people can enjoy being Captain Kirk that I take issue with.

 

Well, I can't have a normal conversation with a chimp, so it's not really similar. Like, at all. I can understand if you're just talking about physical appeal, but relationships are usually more than that, and almost always involve some type of mental attraction as well. Without it, we might just as well have sex with a blowup doll, it wouldn't make any difference. Aliens in MEU are not presented as animals, they are sentient beings.

 

I realize that some people might prefer sex only relationships, but the ones we have in MEU are presented as real relationships based on feelings, they go through all the stages (well, except Javik I guess.... that was weird)