3626 réponses à ce sujet

[FKA_Servo]

Yeah, there are two things that always show up together in an argument about sexualization, "target audience" and "artistic integrity". I don't think you can have both, to be honest. If you're writing for your target audience, then your writing choices are constrained by what your target audience wants. There's no real creativity there. I mean, there can be, but you're still limited in what & how you write. 

 

I guess I reject the basic premise of a "target audience" here. I'm pretty sure science fiction is one of the most broadly appealing and popular genres of the past century, and it's only growing. Story driven RPGs appeal to a broad group of people, and draw new fans to the genre everyday. And Bioware's fanbase (their "target audience") absolutely isn't limited to aggrieved teenage boys hanging around here all righteously indignant about a little diversity (and who are likely going to buy the game no matter what, if only to yell about all their perceived agenda pandering).

[Rhaenyss]

And Mass Effect is a RoleplayingGame .... so the customers here have chanced a lot in the past years. There are A LOT of women now playing Bioware games (even Mass Effect). It's not just the "little boy in Mom's cellar" anymore. And even the male gamers have chanced: They are older, have families, have a wife (have REAL sex by the way   ), have a job and a hard daywork.

 

Probebly in a few years the "little boy" isn't very interesting to the Developer anymore, because the other groups grown up so fast .... and have a lot more money. Just a theory.

 

Yeah, it's interesting to me how many people use this "target audience" argument, since Bioware games were always traditionally appealing to women. I'd understand someone making a hissy fit for some dudebro high testosterone action flick, but Bioware? 

[Kallas_br123]

target audience, is yes, a valid argument, no matter how progressive biowere is, they are subject to metrics, and consumer research for the production and game marketing, why do you think the first trailers of all their games show a man? no matter all feministem giving trantuns in forums and news sites.

 

because when the target audience is composed of men (boys) probably between 16-30.

 

That could change in a few years with the popularity of games increasing, more women and people of other ages will be playing this type of game.

[DaemionMoadrin]

do not overdo it, exposure to vacuum not affect the body in such a dramatic way, your eyes do not explode, your sengue does not evaporate, or the like.

 

The capillaries in your skin will burst because they can't contain the pressure of your blood (which is higher than normal atmospheric pressure). Most of the human body is liquid in some form and liquids in vacuum have the tendency to spread which also cools them down significantly. You also have oxygen and other gasses in your blood, those will make it "boil". Your eyes are covered by a protective fluid, which would almost instantly evaporate in vacuum, leaving your eyes exposed and dry. That in turn is going to damage them even without the bursting blood vessels in them. Your eardrums will burst, too. Probably the first thing to go when you go out wearing a breather mask.

 

So yeah, you'd probably survive a short exposure... but you'd be nearly blind, deaf and incapacitated by pain. You definitely would not run around and shoot people. Longterm exposure? You'd die. And if you get wounded, your blood loss would take you out much, much faster than usual.

[von uber]

Yup, radfems and their entourage of white knights. The problem is, it's so hard NOT to respond to the ridiculous hyperbole, hypocrisy and misinformation that makes up the majority of their posts.

 

You know what? If I am a 'white knight' for wanting the best for her:

 

Spoiler

 

Then I'm a 'white Knight', as you so call it. And you know what? I don't ****** care, because she is the most important thing in the world to me and I will do whatever I can to try and make her world fairer, less sexist, give her the same opportunities I, as a male had - and that includes being able to play online games without being harassed by some retarded 14 year old for merely being a girl, or wondering why the only major female character is deemed to be perfectly reasonable to go to war in a bikini while all the other characters are armoured up to their arses.

[FKA_Servo]

 

target audience, is yes, a valid argument, no matter how progressive biowere is, they are subject to metrics, and consumer research for the production and game marketing, why do you think the first trailers of all their games show a man? no matter all feministem giving trantuns in forums and news sites.

 

because when the target audience is composed of men (boys) probably between 16-30.

 

That could change in a few years with the popularity of games increasing, more women and people of other ages will be playing this type of game.

 

 

It has changed. It is currently changing. I know a lot of people who play Bioware games, both personally and through work. Only two guys, and I'm one of them. Anecdotal, yes, but the fan communities I come across online bear this out as well.

 

Also - if you think it's the feminists throwing tantrums here on the BSN (or most places), you need to adjust your reading glasses. Or maybe re-evaluate what constitutes a "tantrum" as opposed to a mild criticism or a thoughtful discussion point.

[Rhaenyss]

It has changed. It is currently changing. I know a lot of people who play Bioware games, both personally and through work. Only two guys, and I'm one of them. Anecdotal, yes, but the fan communities I come across online bear this out as well.

 

Also - if you think it's the feminists throwing tantrums here on the BSN (or most places), you need to adjust your reading glasses. Or maybe re-evaluate what constitutes a "tantrum" as opposed to a mild criticism or a thoughtful discussion point.

 

Of course it has changed, I have more female friends that play games than I have male ones. I remember playing Resident Evil, Warcraft and Baldur's Gate and numerous other games when I was 13 yrs old (so back in '99) with two of my girlfriends. I guess I was never really exposed to this toxic s*hit, everything was pretty laid back, that's why I just roll my eyes at some kid in WoW who throws temper tantrums at me & feel sorry for his future girlfriends. 

[SnakeCode]

You know what? If I am a 'white knight' for wanting the best for her:

 

Spoiler

 

Then I'm a 'white Knight', as you so call it. And you know what? I don't ****** care, because she is the most important thing in the world to me and I will do whatever I can to try and make her world fairer, less sexist, give her the same opportunities I, as a male had - and that includes being able to play online games without being harassed by some retarded 14 year old for merely being a girl, or wondering why the only major female character is deemed to be perfectly reasonable to go to war in a bikini while all the other characters are armoured up to their arses.

 

Really? The baby sympathy play, that's where you're going? Just curious though, what opportunities do you enjoy that she won't be able to? You live in the UK, like me if I recall, where it's illegal to discriminate based on sex. Or is not being trolled whilst gaming online (which happens overwhelmingly to guys btw) the only thing you have?

[WildOrchid]

You know what? If I am a 'white knight' for wanting the best for her:

 

Spoiler

 

Then I'm a 'white Knight', as you so call it. And you know what? I don't ****** care, because she is the most important thing in the world to me and I will do whatever I can to try and make her world fairer, less sexist, give her the same opportunities I, as a male had - and that includes being able to play online games without being harassed by some retarded 14 year old for merely being a girl, or wondering why the only major female character is deemed to be perfectly reasonable to go to war in a bikini while all the other characters are armoured up to their arses.

 

Cute baby.

 

Any man who sees basic logic is called "white knight" these days. It's ok, name calling here is so often it's been like a BSN tradition.

[FKA_Servo]

Of course it has changed, I have more female friends that play games than I have male ones. I remember playing Resident Evil, Warcraft and Baldur's Gate and numerous other games when I was 13 yrs old (so back in '99) with two of my girlfriends. I guess I was never really exposed to this toxic s*hit, everything was pretty laid back, that's why I just roll my eyes at some kid in WoW who throws temper tantrums at me & feel sorry for his future girlfriends. 

 

I've only got two years on you.

 

I think the internet was fun until about 2006 or 2007, and then it mostly turned awful for some reason. I still haven't sarsed why. Probably 4chan.

[Rhaenyss]

Really? The baby sympathy play, that's where you're going? Just curious though, what opportunities do you enjoy that she won't be able to? You live in the UK, like me if I recall, where it's illegal to discriminate based on sex. Or is not being trolled whilst gaming online (which happens overwhelmingly to guys btw) the only thing you have?

 

I think this is the perfect moment to begin the "someone has it worse" discussion, because of course.

 

I also have a baby girl & I'm dreading the moment when she'll have to interact with the outside world. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best for your kid and wanting to protect them from all this toxic bulls*hit.

[Kallas_br123]

The capillaries in your skin will burst because they can't contain the pressure of your blood (which is higher than normal atmospheric pressure). Most of the human body is liquid in some form and liquids in vacuum have the tendency to spread which also cools them down significantly. You also have oxygen and other gasses in your blood, those will make it "boil". Your eyes are covered by a protective fluid, which would almost instantly evaporate in vacuum, leaving your eyes exposed and dry. That in turn is going to damage them even without the bursting blood vessels in them. Your eardrums will burst, too. Probably the first thing to go when you go out wearing a breather mask.

 

So yeah, you'd probably survive a short exposure... but you'd be nearly blind, deaf and incapacitated by pain. You definitely would not run around and shoot people. Longterm exposure? You'd die. And if you get wounded, your blood loss would take you out much, much faster than usual.

yes, it's lethal. but not as dramatic, your blood will not evaporate or boil, damage the corneas is not permanent. and much pain. an exposed person would not last 10 seconds conciente.

 

You die by asphyxiation long before any exposure to vacuum.

 

but I agree breathing masks, are a dumb idea.

[von uber]

Really? The baby sympathy play, that's where you're going? Just curious though, what opportunities do you enjoy that she won't be able to? You live in the UK, like me if I recall, where it's illegal to discriminate based on sex. Or is not being trolled whilst gaming online (which happens overwhelmingly to guys btw) the only thing you have?

 

The fact you think I am going for 'sympathy' (and sympathy? for what exactly?) shows you have no idea what point I was making.

You want me to give you an example? Here's one off the top of my head - the other half was nearly (illegally) fired because she became pregnant by her work, despite being the best at her job. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. For example, I'm an engineer, and it still has a long way to go to make it a more positive working environment for women. There is still to a degree a glass ceiling in my industry at least.

 

Regarding online harassment, I would suggest that the 'trolling' as you put it towards men is entirely different than that experienced by women. there was a web blog that recorded it if I recall correctly.

[Kallas_br123]

I think this is the perfect moment to begin the "someone has it worse" discussion, because of course.

 

I also have a baby girl & I'm dreading the moment when she'll have to interact with the outside world. There's nothing wrong with wanting the best for your kid and wanting to protect them from all this toxic bulls*hit.

ok i bite, which toxic ****? because if you are referring to Trolling, this has nothing to do with feminism or any kind of movement, it is just a collection of idiots (men and women) who are idiots.

 

Objectification will always exist both men and women, body models as well.

 

And also there is a difference between protecting and sheltering, and the last is not healthy.

[Iakus]

 

 

Also - if you think it's the feminists throwing tantrums here on the BSN (or most places), you need to adjust your reading glasses. Or maybe re-evaluate what constitutes a "tantrum" as opposed to a mild criticism or a thoughtful discussion point.

I certainly don't consider myself a "feminist"

 

I do consider myself a fan of common sense, which seems to be almost as bad here 

[Kallas_br123]

I certainly don't consider myself a "feminist"

 

I do consider myself a fan of common sense, which seems to be almost as bad here 

of course common sense, ie: What I like and want is the right thing, and should be considered as such.

 

do not consider yourself so superior my friend.

[FKA_Servo]

I certainly don't consider myself a "feminist"

 

I do consider myself a fan of common sense, which seems to be almost as bad here 

 

I think a venn diagram of the two would pretty much be a perfect circle. Some people just can't seem to get past the ridiculous straw feminists that haunt their darkest fantasies.

 

Spoiler

 

 

It's important to remember that they don't actually exist.

[Kallas_br123]

in my opinion. the feminism jabs,

comes from the fact that in recent years, games, and media in general have become a circus, insane feminist, and trolls attacking each other. then any matter approached about sexualization and and objectification and any other thing in the genre, generates an extreme reaction of some people

 

Sorry bad english

[Rhaenyss]

 

ok i bite, which toxic ****? because if you are referring to Trolling, this has nothing to do with feminism or any kind of movement, it is just a collection of idiots (men and women) who are idiots.

 

Objectification will always exist both men and women, body models as well.

 

And also there is a difference between protecting and sheltering, and the last is not healthy.

 

 

I'm referring to everything that women experience that is different for them just for being female. I really don't want to get into details, because I'm not in the mood for writing essays about such heavy topics. If you don't know, it's safe to say that you're not female.

 

In before "but you're privileged..", yes I know. That doesn't mean I haven't experienced my share of shittiness from men that were degrading or dismissive. Ultimately it's your personal experience that shapes you, and not what other people are going through halfway around the globe.

 

In before "#notallmen".. You're right, there are nice and normal men, but also women that are sexist too. My favorite must be this colleague I know that calls all the other women at her workplace cows and proclaims herself as "not like other women". 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

do not overdo it, exposure to vacuum not affect the body in such a dramatic way, your eyes do not explode, your sengue does not evaporate, or the like.

To be fair, we actually don't know with absolute certainty what would happen to a living person if exposed to the vacuum of space. We have theories based in science sure, but we can't know for sure until we throw somebody out there and watch, and that goes against ethics codes. 

[Kallas_br123]

I'm referring to everything that women experience that is different for them just for being female. I really don't want to get into details, because I'm not in the mood for writing essays about such heavy topics. If you don't know, it's safe to say that you're not female.

 

In before "but you're privileged..", yes I know. That doesn't mean I haven't experienced my share of shittiness from men that were degrading or dismissive. Ultimately it's your personal experience that shapes you, and not what other people are going through halfway around the globe.

 

In before "#notallmen".. You're right, there are nice and normal men, but also women that are sexist too. My favorite must be this colleague I know that calls all the other women at her workplace cows and proclaims herself as "not like other women". 

everyone experience Trolling on the internet differently, male or female, gay or straight, it's nothing personal or is a sexism problem, it's just Trolling if a woman is called a **** in an online chat, it is because the troll know will be effective not because it is sexist.

 

women are not special, men are not special, no one should have special treatment no matter ethnicity sex or orientation. the world is cruel the internet is worse, create thick skin or good luck.

 

on the topic. yes I agree in situções combat, whether urban or hostile environment, everyone should use an appropriate combat armor or clothing.

 

but consider personality (jack for example) in urban combat situations the way she dresses suits her personality.

[Kallas_br123]

To be fair, we actually don't know with absolute certainty what would happen to a living person if exposed to the vacuum of space. We have theories based in science sure, but we can't know for sure until we throw somebody out there and watch, and that goes against ethics codes. 

actually happened some human accidents during the space race. and animal tests were performed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

actually happened some human accidents during the space race. and animal tests were performed.

True, but like with all science it requires a larger sample size to be more conclusive and scientists are not allowed to do stuff like that anymore. So far with humans we've only really seen the end result, not what happens inside us during the process since the accidents were accidents so we didn't have all the necessary equipment in place to gather data. We'd need things like cameras and sensors to get real-time data on the exposure to vacuum and the consequences of it on and in the human body.

[Iakus]

of course common sense, ie: What I like and want is the right thing, and should be considered as such.

 

do not consider yourself so superior my friend.

Yup, I like it when they consistently show people (men and women alike) dressing consistently for the environment they are going into.  I like it when they wear sealed outfits in toxic areas, and body armor in gunfights.  I like it when the design concept for a character goes beyond eye candy.

 

Bad Iakus!  For shame!  Hand in your man-card!

[Rhaenyss]

 

everyone experience Trolling on the internet differently, male or female, gay or straight, it's nothing personal or is a sexism problem, it's just Trolling if a woman is called a **** in an online chat, it is because the troll know will be effective not because it is sexist.

 

women are not special, men are not special, no one should have special treatment no matter ethnicity sex or orientation. the world is cruel the internet is worse, create thick skin or good luck.

 

 

But in all seriousness, I'm not talking about trolling, because trolling is the easiest thing to avoid. I'm talking about general human experience. It's easy to say to a normal person that everyone should be treated equally, but reality is something else and there are still bigots out there, unfortunately. What's positive about all this feminism thing is that it's getting harder and harder for bigots to say stupid **** without someone calling them on it, and I think that's positive. You can't change someone, not really, but you can laugh at them and wait for them to die out.