3626 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

TIM had no idea what the hell the Suicide Mission is going to be. That's why we were tasked with recruiting such a wide range of individuals instead of just soldiers. No one had any idea what was on the other side of the Omega Relay, so we were being prepared for every contingency. That's why we have people like Thane and Kasumi. Really, when you break down the squad makeup I'm thinking that the head on assault scenario we got was considered very unlikely, given that the only squadmates really geared for that kind of engagement are Garrus, Jacob, Zaeed, and Grunt, and Grunt wasn't even our intended squadmate, Okeer was. Whatever TIM was expecting on the other side of the Relay, it wasn't the straight up fight that we got. 

 

Also, it doesn't necessarily follow that just because we use Miranda as a squadmate on the ground that that was TIM intended us to do with her. Mordin's job is to come up with a solution for the seeker swarms; the fact that we take him into battle is, if anything, out and out foolish since it puts our primary scientific asset at risk. Yes, he is combat trained form his days in the STG, but that doesn't mean putting the guy you're relying to come up with a countermeasure against enemy tech into the line of fire is anything resembling a good idea.

 

He had no idea what it was going to be but I'm to believe he wouldn't have suggested professional  combat training? Against an unknown enemy that's wielding superior technology? Are you serious right now? Despite him knowing Shepard is a frontline fighter (regardless of class)? I'm really supposed to believe TIM is this stupid? Shepard time and time again takes a small elite force against overwhelming odds. If TIM didn't expect Shepard to once again end up in a similar scenario he's a moron. That is what Shepard is best at. Taking a small force, punching a big hole, making a lot of noise, and getting out. This is not news to TIM. (or at least it shouldn't be news to anyone with half a brain). Miranda after having studied Shepard should also know this is how he/she operates and should've prepared herself accordingly. There is little to no reason for Miranda not to be combat trained come ME2. She doesn't lack the resources, the ability or the drive.

 

We recruited Mordin for his ability to find a cure for the seeker swarms. Miranda was recruited for her loyalty and ability. She wasn't even in a leadership position because that was given to Shepard. Her watching Shepard also would be better done if she was next to him/her on the field a position it would've been far safer to do if she was trained and armored for it. (That said no I never saw Mordin on the frontlines as a good idea. But in the SM there wasn't much of an option. It was all hands on deck scenario).

[Former_Fiend]

I'd also like to quote an article from Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw on the subject of collapsible helmets.

 

 

But I don't want to spend this whole column reiterating points the video made. There's one other point I want to make that was way too petty for prime time but if I don't get it off my chest it's going to drive me spare. I am really, really bothered by all these fold-out helmets sci-fi characters have nowadays.

 

You know what I mean. It's in Dead Space 2 and it was in Vanquish, as well as the Iron Man 2 movie and a couple of others. It's when you have a helmet or piece of complex armour that starts off packed away in an incredibly small mass behind your head or somewhere and then automatically folds out section by section to completely cover the head or body. Every time I see it, it bothers me because I simply cannot be convinced that this is a more efficient alternative, in any practical or monetary sense, to simply lifting your helmet on and off and holding it under your arm. Maybe you could argue that a rich wanker might have it but not on a mass-produced uniform like Isaac's presumably developed by the lowest bidder.

 

Firstly, the helmet isn't gaining or losing any mass, it's all folded up. And forgive me if you were already au fait with these matters, but a helmet is protective gear. It's supposed to be heavy and bulky and strong to soak up heavy impacts. It's going to be none of those things if it's made of material thin enough to easily fold away like that. And even if you have successfully developed some kind of superdense Adamantium that still offers full protection even if it's one millimetre thick, when its folded up its entire mass is going to be hanging off the back of your neck, and you can't tell me that's going to be good for your posture.

 

But even if your Adamantium is also supernaturally light, when you make a helmet fold away like that, you're adding fifteen million gaps, flaps, hinges and points of articulation that all create weak points in the structure, I'm not convinced the entire thing wouldn't shatter into eyeball-bursting shards after one sturdy bop on the bonce. And this is assuming all those moving parts don't **** up by themselves. I have a fold-out umbrella that's supposed to open out to full size at the touch of a button, and that needs a good shake now and then. It doesn't have anywhere near the number of moving parts these helmets have. I don't care how close to the technological singularity your future setting is: one of those flaps is going to stop working at some point. In Dead Space 2, you even go out into space with this helmet on. It's actually relied upon to create an airtight seal, you'd better make ****** sure you've gone over all those bits and pieces with WD-40 before you press the open airlock button, matey. And what if your helmet is slightly too small and you've got sticky-out ears, are they just going to get sliced off?

 

To top it all, there is only one obvious benefit to this technology to counterbalance all these possible issues: you can have both hands free when you don't have your helmet on. But the only reason you wouldn't have your helmet on is if you're not on the job. And if you're not on the job, you don't need both your hands. QED.

 

Yeah, I know, this was the most consequential rant I've ever done, but I'm sorry, these helmets have started really taking me out of the story. Next week: why the ability to carry fifteen two-handed guns at once makes Half-Life the worst game ever made.

[Former_Fiend]

He had no idea what it was going to be but I'm to believe he wouldn't have suggested combat training? Are you serious right now? Despite him knowing Shepard is a frontline fighter (regardless of class)? I'm really supposed to believe TIM is this stupid? Shepard time and time again takes a small elite force against overwhelming odds. If TIM didn't expect Shepard to once again end up in a similar scenario he's a moron. That is what Shepard is best at. Taking a small force, punching a big hole, making a lot of noise, and getting out. This is not news to TIM.

 

We recruited Mordin for his ability to find a cure for the seeker swarms. Miranda was recruited for her loyalty and ability. She wasn't even in a leadership position because that was given to Shepard. Her watching Shepard also would be better done if she was next to him/her on the field.

 

Ok, at this point I don't know if I'm not communicating my point properly or if you're being willfully obtuse in not understanding what I'm trying to say. I like you, Ryzaki, I do, but this conversation is getting painful and you're getting way too worked up over it for me to continue. 

[Ryzaki]

Ok, at this point I don't know if I'm not communicating my point properly or if you're being willfully obtuse in not understanding what I'm trying to say. I like you, Ryzaki, I do, but this conversation is getting painful and you're getting way too worked up over it for me to continue. 

 

Yeah I'm sorry but the whole TIM wouldn't have had his Cerberus operatives trained for combat is mindbogglingly ridiculous to me. Especially when the game goes out of it's way to show us a whole bunch of cerberus operatives with...training! And we have no reason to believe Miranda and Jacob were treated like scientists instead of the rest of their combat operatives. It's complete bending to suit that absurd outfit and I can't. Especially when that outfit is so stupid to begin with.

 

Edit: But as for the workedupness probably I've been having a crappy day. Sorry.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Personally I'd be into something like what Ashley wears in the ME 1 Cinematic Trailer. I like helmets in general, and this one would give a full view of the face during conversations, and drop down (fully, instead of to just below the eyes, like Ashley's version) during combat. Not a big fan of the de-rez effect Starlord's helmet features.

 

Speaking of Ash's helmet in that trailer, I would love for there to be tint color and level options when customizing armor. 

[KaiserShep]

 

I'd also like to quote an article from Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw on the subject of collapsible helmets.

 

 

 

 

You know what I mean. It's in Dead Space 2 and it was in Vanquish, as well as the Iron Man 2 movie and a couple of others. It's when you have a helmet or piece of complex armour that starts off packed away in an incredibly small mass behind your head or somewhere and then automatically folds out section by section to completely cover the head or body. Every time I see it, it bothers me because I simply cannot be convinced that this is a more efficient alternative, in any practical or monetary sense, to simply lifting your helmet on and off and holding it under your arm. Maybe you could argue that a rich wanker might have it but not on a mass-produced uniform like Isaac's presumably developed by the lowest bidder.

 

Firstly, the helmet isn't gaining or losing any mass, it's all folded up. And forgive me if you were already au fait with these matters, but a helmet is protective gear. It's supposed to be heavy and bulky and strong to soak up heavy impacts. It's going to be none of those things if it's made of material thin enough to easily fold away like that. And even if you have successfully developed some kind of superdense Adamantium that still offers full protection even if it's one millimetre thick, when its folded up its entire mass is going to be hanging off the back of your neck, and you can't tell me that's going to be good for your posture.

 

But even if your Adamantium is also supernaturally light, when you make a helmet fold away like that, you're adding fifteen million gaps, flaps, hinges and points of articulation that all create weak points in the structure, I'm not convinced the entire thing wouldn't shatter into eyeball-bursting shards after one sturdy bop on the bonce. And this is assuming all those moving parts don't **** up by themselves. I have a fold-out umbrella that's supposed to open out to full size at the touch of a button, and that needs a good shake now and then. It doesn't have anywhere near the number of moving parts these helmets have. I don't care how close to the technological singularity your future setting is: one of those flaps is going to stop working at some point. In Dead Space 2, you even go out into space with this helmet on. It's actually relied upon to create an airtight seal, you'd better make ****** sure you've gone over all those bits and pieces with WD-40 before you press the open airlock button, matey. And what if your helmet is slightly too small and you've got sticky-out ears, are they just going to get sliced off?

 

To top it all, there is only one obvious benefit to this technology to counterbalance all these possible issues: you can have both hands free when you don't have your helmet on. But the only reason you wouldn't have your helmet on is if you're not on the job. And if you're not on the job, you don't need both your hands. QED.

 

Yeah, I know, this was the most consequential rant I've ever done, but I'm sorry, these helmets have started really taking me out of the story. Next week: why the ability to carry fifteen two-handed guns at once makes Half-Life the worst game ever made.

 

 

But then, this makes me wonder if folding weapons should detonate in our hands, because the intricate moving parts required to snap in and out would actually make them fairly delicate for their intended purpose. 

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah I'm sorry but the whole TIM wouldn't have had his Cerberus operatives trained for combat is mindbogglingly ridiculous to me. Especially when the game goes out of it's way to show us a whole bunch of cerberus operatives with...training! And we have no reason to believe Miranda and Jacob were treated like scientists instead of the rest of their combat operatives.

 

My point wasn't that TIM wouldn't have his operatives combat trained. I'm saying the impression I got from Miranda's backstory as she related it was that she had prior combat training before joining Cerberus. And if that combat training was extensive enough, I don't see TIM taking time and resources into adding onto it when he can just put her to work and start getting results, especially when combat isn't her primary focus. 

 

TIM doesn't insist on Shepard going through any kind of training program despite the fact that Shepard was dead for two years. Jacob never gives the hint or impression that he got any extra combat training from Cerberus; as far as we know TIM felt that the extensive training Jacob received as an Alliance officer was more than sufficient. We don't get any hint that Kai Leng was put through any further training once he joined Cerberus; his alliance training was sufficient.

 

TIM doesn't run a training program. He runs an organization that recruits talented, trained operatives. They may train their foot soldiers, but I don't see him recruiting people at the operative level - Miranda, Jacob, Leng - who need extra training. He recruits people at that level who are already top of their field so he can put them right to work. 

 

That's the impression I got from the game. I am in no way, shape, or form saying that any of these people are not combat trained. I don't know how much more clearly I can get that across. I'm saying that TIM isn't the one doing it, and that in Miranda's case, neither was the Alliance, which makes her an outlier. 

[Former_Fiend]

But then, this makes me wonder if folding weapons should detonate in our hands, because the intricate moving parts required to snap in and out would actually make them fairly delicate for their intended purpose. 

 

I'm just using this to highlight the double standard involved with what some people here are and aren't willing to suspend their disbelief on. Collapsible weapons, fine. Hypothetical collapsible helmets - the engineering required for which is completely disproportionate to the simple act of taking your helmet off and holding it under your arm - apparently fine.

 

Catsuits that provide some small modicum of protection and armor? Utterly ridiculous nonsense.  

[KaiserShep]

The catsuit would probably not get as much flak as it does if it at least gave the impression that it could be fully sealed in a hazardous environment, complete with something that isn't a crappy breather mask. It's too bad that even Kasumi has to use one. I really wish she had that N7 Fury mask. I like how Zaeed's is just half of a mask and the back of his head is still exposed, though I guess that doesn't change his one bare arm. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TIM doesn't insist on Shepard going through any kind of training program despite the fact that Shepard was dead for two years.

To be fair, Miranda and Jacob treat the mess on the station as Shepard's refresher course in the art of combat. 

[KaiserShep]

Miranda probably raised an eyebrow when Shepard said that the gun didn't have a thermal clip.

 

"OMG, how'd she know?" 

[AresKeith]

I'm just using this to highlight the double standard involved with what some people here are and aren't willing to suspend their disbelief on. Collapsible weapons, fine. Hypothetical collapsible helmets - the engineering required for which is completely disproportionate to the simple act of taking your helmet off and holding it under your arm - apparently fine.

 

Catsuits that provide some small modicum of protection and armor? Utterly ridiculous nonsense.  

 

That's not really a double standard either

[Former_Fiend]

The catsuit would probably not get as much flak as it does if it at least gave the impression that it could be fully sealed in a hazardous environment, complete with something that isn't a crappy breather mask. It's too bad that even Kasumi has to use one. I really wish she had that N7 Fury mask. I like how Zaeed's is just half of a mask and the back of his head is still exposed, though I guess that doesn't change his one bare arm. 

 

I very much am in favor of full body sealed coverings in hazardous environments, whether it be Miranda, Jack, Thane, Zaeed, or Grunt. Arms covered, heads covered, more than just a face mask. I'm all for that.

 

But outside of those environments, I'm much more forgiving, I suppose.

[Former_Fiend]

That's not really a double standard either

 

I absolutely consider thinking of things that are pure rule of cool/plot convenience as being more acceptable than an idea that has more basis in science fact for no real reason as being a double standard.

 

"These ridiculous technologies are fine, but this not that far out there technology isn't because reasons".

[Ryzaki]

My point wasn't that TIM wouldn't have his operatives combat trained. I'm saying the impression I got from Miranda's backstory as she related it was that she had prior combat training before joining Cerberus. And if that combat training was extensive enough, I don't see TIM taking time and resources into adding onto it when he can just put her to work and start getting results, especially when combat isn't her primary focus. 

 

TIM doesn't insist on Shepard going through any kind of training program despite the fact that Shepard was dead for two years. Jacob never gives the hint or impression that he got any extra combat training from Cerberus; as far as we know TIM felt that the extensive training Jacob received as an Alliance officer was more than sufficient. We don't get any hint that Kai Leng was put through any further training once he joined Cerberus; his alliance training was sufficient.

 

TIM doesn't run a training program. He runs an organization that recruits talented, trained operatives. They may train their foot soldiers, but I don't see him recruiting people at the operative level - Miranda, Jacob, Leng - who need extra training. He recruits people at that level who are already top of their field so he can put them right to work. 

 

That's the impression I got from the game. I am in no way, shape, or form saying that any of these people are not combat trained. I don't know how much more clearly I can get that across. I'm saying that TIM isn't the one doing it, and that in Miranda's case, neither was the Alliance, which makes her an outlier. 

 

If that training was extensive enough TIM doesn't see the need to further train her I'm hardly seeing it stopping her from wearing armor. It's not like the training to wear armor is some impossible feat. We see mercenaries wearing such. It's not something rare in the setting. Hell it's actually very common.

 

Mrianda wears the catsuit because she does. Not because she can't wear a suit of armor.

 

TIM doesn't insist on Shepard going through any training program because it's a moot point. Shepard N7 training is pretty much everything Cerberus would've done (if not more so). Kai Lang was also N7 was he not? That's the best of the best. You're not really going to top their training without significant effort.

 

TIM has several bases and was attempting to make super soldiers (given Akuze, Subject Zero). I think them having training centers is pretty sensible in comparison.

 

So is Miranda combat trained enough for close quarters heavy combat (not to mention that's not even necessary for her to wear a light suit of armor. LIARA can throw on a suit of armor for pete's sake) but not enough to wear something other than a catsuit because reasons? I'm sorry but no. That's beyond absurd.

 

The catsuit cannot be justified as a piece of armor it just can't. Especially not with absurdity like but she lacks training to use normal armor when every mook and their mother is running around in heavy. It's rule of sexy. It's not even consistent with Miranda's personality.

[RevilFox]

Out of interest what demographic is supposed to find Jack attractive? In terms of the visual offenses I personally experienced during the game she would be featured in the majority.

Whatever demographic I'm in, at least.

[Former_Fiend]

If that training was extensive enough TIM doesn't see the need to further train her I'm hardly seeing it stopping her from wearing armor. It's not like the training to wear armor is some impossible feat. We see mercenaries wearing such. It's not something rare in the setting. Hell it's actually very common.

 

Mrianda wears the catsuit because she does. Not because she can't wear a suit of armor.

 

TIM doesn't insist on Shepard going through any training program because it's a moot point. Shepard N7 training is pretty much everything Cerberus would've done (if not more so). Kai Lang was also N7 was he not? That's the best of the best. You're not really going to top their training without significant effort.

 

TIM has several bases and was attempting to make super soldiers. I think them having training centers is pretty sensible in comparison.

 

So is Miranda combat trained enough for close quarters heavy combat (not to mention that's not even necessary for her to wear a light suit of armor. LIARA can throw on a suit of armor for pete's sake) but not enough to wear something other than a catsuit because reasons? I'm sorry but no. That's beyond absurd.

 

The catsuit cannot be justified as a piece of armor it just can't. Especially not with absurdity like but she lacks training to use normal armor when every mook and their mother is running around in heavy. It's rule of sexy. It's not even consistent with Miranda's personality.

 

 

I never said she was incapable of wearing it. Her DLC outfit proves that she can. I said she doesn't have the military doctrine of it being a necessity drilled into her the way the others do.

[Ryzaki]

I never said she was incapable of wearing it. Her DLC outfit proves that she can. I said she doesn't have the military doctrine of it being a necessity drilled into her the way the others do.

 

Which is again ridiculous considering the hordes of mercenaries in game that never been in the military a day in their lives wearing armor.

 

Basic protection against bullets isn't military doctrine.

[Broganisity]

I always thought Miranda's armour outfit in 2 looked better than her catsuit. She looked better in it. Same with Ashley's combat armour in comparison to the catsuit in ME3. 

But- there's no bulky pauldrons, or thick cuirass or- or- THERE'S NO BEVOR. ;_;

I just- I like big plates and I cannot lie, you other knights can't deny-

Give me more people in Destroyer and Blood Dragon armor than in catsuits. ;_;

[Former_Fiend]

Which is again ridiculous considering the hordes of mercenaries in game that never been in the military a day in their lives wearing armor.

 

Basic protection against bullets isn't military doctrine.

 

The hordes of mercenaries that get absolutely slaughtered.

 

I'm sorry, but throwing them up as an example of why armor is effective in this setting isn't a good argument. If you want to complain that Bioware is portraying catsuit wearing Miranda and topless Jack as more combat proficient than the legions of mooks wearing armor, complain about that, but don't call them idiots for not wearing armor when they're demonstrably more dangerous than 99% of the people who do.

[Ryzaki]

The hordes of mercenaries that get absolutely slaughtered.

 

I'm sorry, but throwing them up as an example of why armor is effective in this setting isn't a good argument. If you want to complain that Bioware is portraying catsuit wearing Miranda and topless Jack as more combat proficient than the legions of mooks wearing armor, complain about that, but don't call them idiots for not wearing armor when they're demonstrably more dangerous than 99% of the people who do.

 

By an elite n7 operative in heavy armor. With heavy weapons. But keep mentioning Shepard killing them like it makes the armor meaningless for some reason as though the enemies Shep fought without armor did any better.

 

I already answered this. The armor isn't a miracle worker. It helps. It doesn't do all the work. Your seatbelt *might* save your life. But if you die anyway that certainly didn't mean the seatbelt was 100% useless and you should've never buckled a day in your life. But I will continue to believe running across a battlefield in clothes with bullets flying is pretty stupid. Jack at least has enough space magic that I can kind of shrug and go whatever. But Miranda?  Not so much.

[DaemionMoadrin]

I very much am in favor of full body sealed coverings in hazardous environments, whether it be Miranda, Jack, Thane, Zaeed, or Grunt. Arms covered, heads covered, more than just a face mask. I'm all for that.

 

But outside of those environments, I'm much more forgiving, I suppose.

 

Exactly that has been said for pages upon pages now. Glad you could join us.

 

The hordes of mercenaries that get absolutely slaughtered.

 

I'm sorry, but throwing them up as an example of why armor is effective in this setting isn't a good argument. If you want to complain that Bioware is portraying catsuit wearing Miranda and topless Jack as more combat proficient than the legions of mooks wearing armor, complain about that, but don't call them idiots for not wearing armor when they're demonstrably more dangerous than 99% of the people who do.

 

That's a BS argument and you know it. You're actively arguing against gameplay here.

 

Hey, you know that one person who always wears full armor (and a helmet more often than not) who doesn't get slaughtered? That's right, Shepard. Who are you going to believe more? The N7 trained Spectre or the psychotic biotic?

[KaiserShep]

The hordes of mercenaries that get absolutely slaughtered.

 

I'm sorry, but throwing them up as an example of why armor is effective in this setting isn't a good argument. If you want to complain that Bioware is portraying catsuit wearing Miranda and topless Jack as more combat proficient than the legions of mooks wearing armor, complain about that, but don't call them idiots for not wearing armor when they're demonstrably more dangerous than 99% of the people who do.

 

But this is sort of like arguing that the Predator is the most powerful gun in the game because it one-shot kills everyone in cut scenes, even the notoriously resilient Vorcha that regenerate. If you're a nameless enemy, odds are you have shields akin to a really staticky sweater and the health bar of fish out of water, and you better make peace with your maker or the life you led before your swift and inevitable demise. Miranda and Jack could fight in the nude and still be more powerful and resistant to damage than most basic enemies. 

[Former_Fiend]

Exactly that has been said for pages upon pages now. Glad you could join us.

 

 

That's a BS argument and you know it. You're actively arguing against gameplay here.

 

Hey, you know that one person who always wears full armor (and a helmet more often than not) who doesn't get slaughtered? That's right, Shepard. Who are you going to believe more? The N7 trained Spectre or the psychotic biotic?

 

How about Urdnot "I can shrug off a rocket to the face during gameplay" Wrex getting oneshotted by Ashley or put down with a few shots by C-Sec. 

 

So long as the series portrays armor as having negligible effectiveness both in and out of combat, I'm not going to fault a character for deciding to for-go it, especially when that doesn't actually hamper their combat effectiveness.

[Ryzaki]

How about Urdnot "I can shrug off a rocket to the face during gameplay" Wrex getting oneshotted by Ashley or put down with a few shots by C-Sec. 

 

So long as the series portrays armor as having negligible effectiveness both in and out of combat, I'm not going to fault a character for deciding to for-go it, especially when that doesn't actually hamper their combat effectiveness.

 

He got oneshotted in the back. (and it wasn't even a one shot actually. It was a takedown then a few followups if you wanna get technical).