I will admit that I have not read most of this thread, so apologies if this has been suggested already. Why not a compromise:
A) No wildly out of place catsuits/bikinis in combat, as long as:
B ) Nobody showers/has sex while wearing underwear
Check the last two pages, actually. That's not so much a compromise, as almost everyone who has expressed an aversion to unrealistic combat apparel has also expressed an aversion to shower underwear.
This isn't as simple as modesty vs. sexiness.
Thing is, it depends upon the target audience doesn't it? For a mostly male audience, sex is going to sell. More precisely, sexy women are going to sell. Games, TV, Advertising and Movies all follow this concept. But like you and others suggest, having a variety of costumes, some sexy, some practical, would be the best option.
The problem is when this is taken too far. Also with a growing female demographic this can hinder sales if done too much. The idea of sex sells is it can also be taken lightly as a medium. Its like saying we got sex, we don't have anything else, but we got sex. Take the comic book industry, almost all the women for a very long period of time have been overly sexualized, and the men overly testostroned.
In a mostly visual artform, the idea sex/and wish fullfillment sells has hurt them as a medium where human characters don't look anywhere near humans. And despite all the super hero movies/shows very few new people over all get into comics. Never mind that sex is so ubiquitous today that actual porn stars are having trouble making money due to how common sexual images are to get.
Sex doesn't sell nearly as well anymore.
Check the last two pages, actually. That's not so much a compromise, as almost everyone who has expressed an aversion to unrealistic combat apparel has also expressed an aversion to shower underwear.
This isn't as simple as modesty vs. sexiness.
Excellent. I have nothing to add then and will move along.
Check the last two pages, actually. That's not so much a compromise, as almost everyone who has expressed an aversion to unrealistic combat apparel has also expressed an aversion to shower underwear.
This isn't as simple as modesty vs. sexiness.
Actually, it's about neo-puritan prudes versus enlightened free thinkers.
I don't have very strong feelings about the Samara situation. I can see where it comes off as ooc, but on the other hand, I think the concept of appropriate attire is supposed to work differently for Asari than it is for species with two sexes. The concept of modesty is social in the first place, and it seems natural to me that a species where every single person has the same parts would have a different approach to it, or that it wouldn't be a significant issue to begin with.
One of the reasons why the Asari who accused Miranda of dressing "like a ******" weirded me out, in addition to successfully pissing me off. Why would someone from a species of all women have a mindset like that in the first place?
The problem is when this is taken too far. Also with a growing female demographic this can hinder sales if done too much. The idea of sex sells is it can also be taken lightly as a medium. Its like saying we got sex, we don't have anything else, but we got sex. Take the comic book industry, almost all the women for a very long period of time have been overly sexualized, and the men overly testostroned.
In a mostly visual artform, the idea sex/and wish fullfillment sells has hurt them as a medium where human characters don't look anywhere near humans. And despite all the super hero movies/shows very few new people over all get into comics. Never mind that sex is so ubiquitous today that actual porn stars are having trouble making money due to how common sexual images are to get.
Sex doesn't sell nearly as well anymore.
I don't know where you live but in my experience, most European countries are far more liberal about sex than United States. Sex is everywhere here. Billboards have women in sexy lingerie, magazine covers have photo shoots of half naked hot celebrities. No one complains about FHM's or Maxim's cover, never mind playboy. It's the double standard in this discussion I find offensive. People are quite happy having blood splattered across the screen but the moment a women with a perfect hourglass figure appears in a figure hugging costume, people are up in arms about it. Worry about the glorification of violence before you worry about what a character in a game is wearing. It's perfectly acceptable to reward a gamer for exploding someone's head in a shower of gore but unacceptable for a female character to wear a cat suit. It's ridiculous.
That can actually work both ways. While modesty may be less of a factor, dressing in a way that accentuates the figure would also be relatively pointless. Ever wonder what the women's fashion industry would be like if it wasn't focused on making women attractive to men? I certainly do.
How about putting pockets on women's pants big enough to actually put things in? That would be nice.
It's not an on/off switch. It's a spectrum. That specific image is maybe like a 3 out of 10 on the sexualized spectrum. Miranda is like a 6 or 7. Something like Bayonetta would be a 10 (though to be fair I don't think Bayonetta takes itself seriously). That poster everybody was analyzing earlier was like a 1 out of 10, if it was on the spectrum at all.
Don't take these numbers that seriously. I'm not attempting to define some official scale - only to indicate that a scale exists.
I understand, but like I said, it is all subjective. What is an 8 on my "scale" would be a 4 on another's. What is a 3 on my scale might be an 9 on yours etc.
This is the difficult part when it comes to this issue of sexualization. Some feminist would look at a character like Bayonetta and celebrate that a strong and dominate woman can still be very sexy and some other feminist would look at the same character and feel disgusted.
Take Madonna as an example to many she is a feminist icon.
"Feminists have criticised Madonna for many things but she has continued on her path, with a pride in her body and taste in sexuality. With her very individual gesture, Madonna has managed to provide an important contribution to the history of womanhood (and one which is perhaps not emphasised enough). She has reassembled an ancient divided culture, and has healed a little of that rift between the two souls of woman: Mary, the virgin mother of God, and Mary Magdalene, the ******. She has complicated and enriched femininity and the discourse of emancipation, and has brought new images and new suggestions to the women’s liberation movement."
Not saying that she is or isnt because that isn't up to me to decide that, I am just saying that many Gen X women grew up viewing her as a feminist icon and yet Madanna has had a history of sexualizing herself in music videos, photos, and concerts.
That can actually work both ways. While modesty may be less of a factor, dressing in a way that accentuates the figure would also be relatively pointless. Ever wonder what the women's fashion industry would be like if it wasn't focused on making women attractive to men? I certainly do.
Designs may not necessarily be more modest.
The ancient Minoans were probably one of the cultures who came closest to being matriarchal. Their chief deities were female rather than male, the priests were female, women were active in public life and worked many of the same trades as men, and were also in secular positions of authority. In fact in surviving Minoan art there are many more portrayals of female authority figures than male. Descent is also thought to have been traced through the maternal line rather than the paternal.
Yet one of their fashions was a style of dress where a woman's breasts were completely exposed. Spoiler'd for NSFW...
On that note I'd have to object to the suggestion that all female clothing that might be described as sexy, is created by men for men.
That can actually work both ways. While modesty may be less of a factor, dressing in a way that accentuates the figure would also be relatively pointless. Ever wonder what the women's fashion industry would be like if it wasn't focused on making women attractive to men? I certainly do.
Hmm. I think Asari are still capable to being physically attracted to each other, and of appreciating the physical form.
I really am more suspicious of a stigma being attached to revealing clothing in their culture, than I am of an aesthetic inclination towards it.
Actually, it's about neo-puritan prudes versus enlightened free thinkers.
Ah, the timeless, completely black and white struggle between gender equality the portrayal of sexuality in media. How we try to over simplify you.
Designs may not necessarily be more modest.
The ancient Minoans were probably one of the cultures who came closest to being matriarchal. Their chief deities were female rather than male, the priests were female, women were active in public life and worked many of the same trades as men, and were also in secular positions of authority. In fact in art there are many more portrayals of female authority figures than male. Descent is also thought to have been traced through the maternal line rather than the paternal.
Yet one of their fashions was a style of dress where a woman's breasts were completely exposed. Spoiler'd for NSFW...
Spoiler
On that note I'd have to object to the suggestion that all female clothing that might be described as sexy, is created by men for men.
Stupid like limit is stupid.
Honorary like.
That can actually work both ways. While modesty may be less of a factor, dressing in a way that accentuates the figure would also be relatively pointless. Ever wonder what the women's fashion industry would be like if it wasn't focused on making women attractive to men? I certainly do.
Maybe it reminded her of the stripper gear worn by the Asari strippers?
We see a lot of those long, loose dresses on Illium. Maybe that's a more common dress style among Asari.
Liara, at least in ME1 (which I am replaying) spends a long time lamenting the way her species is treated, and the stereotypes sorrounding it.
*snip*
Oh hey, I was reading about them the other day and came by that picture!
Designs may not necessarily be more modest.
The ancient Minoans were probably one of the cultures who came closest to being matriarchal. Their chief deities were female rather than male, the priests were female, women were active in public life and worked many of the same trades as men, and were also in secular positions of authority. In fact in surviving Minoan art there are many more portrayals of female authority figures than male. Descent is also thought to have been traced through the maternal line rather than the paternal.
Yet one of their fashions was a style of dress where a woman's breasts were completely exposed. Spoiler'd for NSFW...
Spoiler
On that note I'd have to object to the suggestion that all female clothing that might be described as sexy, is created by men for men.
Tha
Designs may not necessarily be more modest.
The ancient Minoans were probably one of the cultures who came closest to being matriarchal. Their chief deities were female rather than male, the priests were female, women were active in public life and worked many of the same trades as men, and were also in secular positions of authority. In fact in surviving Minoan art there are many more portrayals of female authority figures than male. Descent is also thought to have been traced through the maternal line rather than the paternal.
Yet one of their fashions was a style of dress where a woman's breasts were completely exposed. Spoiler'd for NSFW...
Spoiler
On that note I'd have to object to the suggestion that all female clothing that might be described as sexy, is created by men for men.
But that's judging their sexual culture by our standards. We don't think men's chests are sexual like women's chests are sexual. For all we know, to me, this is the equivalent of dudes going a bit barechested.
I don't know where you live but in my experience, most European countries are far more liberal about sex than United States. Sex is everywhere here. Billboards have women in sexy lingerie, magazine covers have photo shoots of half naked hot celebrities. No one complains about FHM's or Maxim's cover, never mind playboy. It's the double standard in this discussion I find offensive. People are quite happy having blood splattered across the screen but the moment a women with a perfect hourglass figure appears in a figure hugging costume, people are up in arms about it. Worry about the glorification of violence before you worry about what a character in a game is wearing. It's perfectly acceptable to reward a gamer for exploding someone's head in a shower of gore but unacceptable for a female character to wear a cat suit. It's ridiculous.
I always have this issue calling it a double standard because, it seems, sex is real to most of us, I mean really real. Most adults have an full idea about it, if they haven't done it. Violence in games/movies isn't usually portrayed that realistically, and when it does, it isn't nearly as glorified. Compare that to the vast majority of both the people who usually make games and play them relation to violence. I mean the people I have known that have seen combat have said it is fun and they don't want it to be realistic.
So its taking a thing most people don't know, and comparing it to what people do know. that isn't a double standard. So we are comparing a carttonish understanding of sex and sexuality (something a vast majority of adults can say even without sex to have a pretty good handle understanding) to a cartoonish understanding of violence which individuals range widely on experience or basic knowledge. This is why it is hard to compare, but also why it is fun for some people and makes others feel exposed. Its like getting a basic fact about a aardwolf wrong vs a cat. Some people get annoyed with saying that Aardwolves hunt deer and many ignore it to say whatever it is cooler if an Aardwolf eats deer. But saying a cat eats termites only will get people questioning you back and forth.
Nevermind that sexualization isn't always harmless.
Showing it as prudes vs free thinkers is missing the point entirely and ignoring good points. Many people, myself included, say that sex/sexiness isn't bad. Objectifying a person because of their sex appeal is. And there have been pages about what we feel sexualizing someone is. What it is, what it isn't. Simplifying it or dissmissing it entirely is haveing much less nuance than what we are saying.
Tha
But that's judging their sexual culture by our standards. We don't think men's chests are sexual like women's chests are sexual. For all we know, to me, this is the equivalent of dudes going a bit barechested.
Minoan men went topless too.
You are right in that they may not have attached sexual connotations to it. But that wasn't really my point. I was just pointing that a matriarchal society, or something close to it, may not necessarily have modest or conservative fashion designs.
On that note I'd have to object to the suggestion that all female clothing that might be described as sexy, is created by men for men.
Hmm. I think Asari are still capable to being physically attracted to each other, and of appreciating the physical form.
I really am more suspicious of a stigma being attached to revealing clothing in their culture, than I am of an aesthetic inclination towards it.
Also I wanna know who thought those stripper outfits was a good idea
Good lord, for the sake of all that is good/just/holy in this world, bioware, IGNORE THE OP !!!!!!!!!
I want to be able to craft a male character that is a total piece of @$$. I want the anti Geralt. And for gods sakes, make sure any love interests get the same treatment.
Good lord, for the sake of all that is good/just/holy in this world, bioware, IGNORE THE OP !!!!!!!!!
I want to be able to craft a male character that is a total piece of @$$. I want the anti Geralt. And for gods sakes, make sure any love interests get the same treatment.
The OP never mentioned having non-attractive characters. He is talking solely about combat attire.
Also I wanna know who thought those stripper outfits was a good idea
I always thought they made the wearer look less attractive. Not even Kelly could pull it off.
Minoan men went topless too.
You are right in that they may not have attached sexual connotations to it. But that wasn't really my point. I was just pointing that a matriarchal society, or something close to it, may not necessarily have modest or conservative fashion designs.
I didn't mean to suggest that I was disagreeing with you. My "but" in hindsight was not well-placed or well-chosen. I just meant to add to the point: that not only is the fashion different but we shouldn't be judging it form our own mores anyway, so it's not about clothes qua clothes but rather about the social message.
Just out of interest, anyone know if any women worked on mass effect in the art department?
I think I spotted one woman in the artist section and one in the cinematics. No female writers either.
I always thought they made the wearer look less attractive. Not even Kelly could pull it off.
It really did
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