3626 réponses à ce sujet

[Heathen Oxman]

RE: The portrayal of men in videogames........

 

While it's true that imbuing male characters with strength, confidence, and power can be seen as "positive," the argument can be made that it also presents an unrealistic standard of masculinity. 

 

In chatting with male gamers, I've found more than a few who were less than thrilled with the media's depiction of the "ideal man" as always super-confident and massively muscular.  Not saying games should necessarily feature obese, socially maladroit nerds as protagonists, but I think it begs to be considered that what we think of the "positive" traits of male characters may not always be so "positive."

[Altair_ShepardN7]

So now this thread is arguing that fully covered bubble people are "hypersexualized" and their body armor is actually a corset? Well then, it's clear what must be done for character design in ME:A to ensure that no oversexualization can occur.

*snip*

Or are the hands and feet too risque? 
 

Look at the position of their feet, they are clearly being sexualized. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

RE: The portrayal of men in videogames........

 

While it's true that imbuing male characters with strength, confidence, and power can be seen as "positive," the argument can be made that it also presents an unrealistic standard of masculinity. 

 

In chatting with male gamers, I've found more than a few who were less than thrilled with the media's depiction of the "ideal man" as always super-confident and massively muscular.  Not saying games should necessarily feature obese, socially maladroit nerds as protagonists, but I think it begs to be considered that what we think of the "positive" traits of male characters may not always be so "positive."

 

Excellent point.

 

Personally I prefer athletic and fit protagonists. Exaggerated muscles like James Vega are too much but they do fit his character.

[Panda]

RE: The portrayal of men in videogames........

 

While it's true that imbuing male characters with strength, confidence, and power can be seen as "positive," the argument can be made that it also presents an unrealistic standard of masculinity. 

 

In chatting with male gamers, I've found more than a few who were less than thrilled with the media's depiction of the "ideal man" as always super-confident and massively muscular.  Not saying games should necessarily feature obese, socially maladroit nerds as protagonists, but I think it begs to be considered that what we think of the "positive" traits of male characters may not always be so "positive."

 

Yep I guess that's one trend that should already die as well. I'd love to see more variety in male characters as well.

[Han Shot First]

No, the undershirt has a different look and texture to it than James'. 

 

It's Alliance apparel, but not standard Alliance apparel. 

 

Do we see any other Alliance character in a t-shirt?

 

Even if we do and it is different, it doesn't necessarily mean it isn't part of the uniform. When I was in the military there were two different color uniform t-shirts that could be worn under your camo utilities (brown or green), white t-shirts to wear with dress uniforms, and a gray t-shirt with a unit logo that you wore for any kind of physical training the entire company took part in. (daily PT was usually at the platoon level)

 

Any of the above except the white you could see paired with the utility trousers at various times. 

 

I think Vega's design was fine, and it didn't interfere with my suspension of disbelief. I didn't find his character design to be at odds with the real world. 

[Awkward Octopus]

The issue - and a lot of men try to make this point, though they do it badly - is that just because "the culture" ™ dictates that some particular appearance is what men should idealize and that those physical models should be role-models is different from men seeing them that way. To put it differently, these idealized images also create body image issues, and the right way to tackle the issue is to point out that there's a universal problem here that just differentially impacts gender.

 

 

RE: The portrayal of men in videogames........

 

While it's true that imbuing male characters with strength, confidence, and power can be seen as "positive," the argument can be made that it also presents an unrealistic standard of masculinity. 

 

In chatting with male gamers, I've found more than a few who were less than thrilled with the media's depiction of the "ideal man" as always super-confident and massively muscular.  Not saying games should necessarily feature obese, socially maladroit nerds as protagonists, but I think it begs to be considered that what we think of the "positive" traits of male characters may not always be so "positive."

 

Fair enough, I don't disagree. (I probably worded my point poorly - I'm getting a little flippant, I admit.)

 

Here's what we usually get: Men as idealized by men, and women as idealized by men. Because unfortunately, the industry is mostly men. So men get super-muscular power fantasies that they can't live up to because that apparently is what men are supposed to want to BE, and women get objectified because that apparently is what men are supposed to want to HAVE.

 

Solution: I vote for more women in the industry.

 

As a lady with a degree in computer animation, this is only slightly self-serving, I promise

[AresKeith]

Excellent point.

 

Personally I prefer athletic and fit protagonists. Exaggerated muscles like James Vega are too much but they do fit his character.

 

They should be the size of Chris Evans from Capt. America

[Avilan II]

Then what was the point of showing long female hair in the army?

 

Google parasites.

 

You mean "lice". Or?  Because the most common parasite in non-tropical countries at least, would be the common tick. Which prefer things like groins, armpits etc.

As for the point... the point was that it somehow was supposedly uncommon for female soldiers to have long hair, or letting their hair down off duty,

[SnakeCode]

RE: The portrayal of men in videogames........

 

While it's true that imbuing male characters with strength, confidence, and power can be seen as "positive," the argument can be made that it also presents an unrealistic standard of masculinity. 

 

In chatting with male gamers, I've found more than a few who were less than thrilled with the media's depiction of the "ideal man" as always super-confident and massively muscular.  Not saying games should necessarily feature obese, socially maladroit nerds as protagonists, but I think it begs to be considered that what we think of the "positive" traits of male characters may not always be so "positive."

 

The thing is, you have to look at why these traits are considered to be important pertaining to the notion of the "ideal man." It's because, and this isn't everyone obviously, but those traits are what makes a man appealing to a woman. Men's worth in society is, and pretty much always has been dictated by how useful they are to women, and as a result to society as a whole. There is a pressure on men to be this way because there is pressure on men to be a help to women. There's a reason firefighters are considered to be the most sexy guys compared to men in other professions, they exude all of those qualities in abundance. Courage, strength, confidence, selflessness. The fact that they have to stay in fantastic shape doesn't hurt either.  

 

As for videogame characters, I think it's because it's escapism. Nobody wants to be average, especially if that's what you're dealing with in everyday life. The whole fun of videogames is doing things you can't IRL and being somebody else for a few hours.

[In Exile]

Fair enough, I don't disagree. (I probably worded my point poorly - I'm getting a little flippant, I admit.)

Here's what we usually get: Men as idealized by men, and women as idealized by men. Because unfortunately, the industry is mostly men. So men get super-muscular power fantasies that they can't live up to because that apparently is what men are supposed to want to BE, and women get objectified because that apparently is what men are supposed to want to HAVE.

Solution: I vote for more women in the industry.

As a lady with a degree in computer animation, this is only slightly self-serving, I promise

But the difference - and it is an important difference - is that the ultimate impact in terms of body image issues is still there for both genders. The dynamics behind what drives those issues is different.

"Men" aren't a uniform hive-minded group with a single ideal or mode of thought. Some men might feel powerful roided out monster. Others might feel inadequate, suffer from image issues, etc. Saying that there's a meaningful difference here because it's other men causing the harm is, I think, completely besides the point.

This situation - the roided out dudes as a physical ideal - is exhibit #1 in how sexism hurts men too.

In both cases it's a subset of men imposing their idealised view of the world on everyone. There's a lot of historical disadvantage when it comes to women being objectifed but, in my view, the answer here is to find common cause.

[Avilan II]

Here's what we usually get: Men as idealized by men, and women as idealized by men.

 

Honest question: Is there any data that supports what kind of women women idealize?

Because from the very limited data I have, it is pretty close to what we have in games like ME. Aka strong, healthy capable and yes beautiful women.

 

There are also a lot of common modern myths associated with this statement of yours, like  the "fact" that women are physically incapable of sexualize other people. Which of course is complete hogwash. Having seen women drool at soccer players (of either gender, depending on preference) and other athletes, or do things like having Nude Firefighter Calendars hanging on the wall (again, of either preference).

[In Exile]

The thing is, you have to look at why these traits are considered to be important pertaining to the notion of the "ideal man." It's because, and this isn't everyone obviously, but those traits are what makes a man appealing to a woman. Men's worth in society is, and pretty much always has been dictated by how useful they are to women, and as a result to society as a whole. There is a pressure on men to be this way because there is pressure on men to be a help to women. There's a reason firefighters are considered to be the most sexy guys compared to men in other professions, they exude all of those qualities in abundance. Courage, strength, confidence, selflessness. The fact that they have to stay in fantastic shape doesn't hurt either.

As for videogame characters, I think it's because it's escapism. Nobody wants to be average, especially if that's what you're dealing with in everyday life. The whole fun of videogames is doing things you can't IRL and being somebody else for a few hours.

On the other hand, we have this position, which doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because muscular confident dudes are largely worthless in society. Their career prospects are limited, their social network isn't powerful and impactful, and their access to high-income and high-status professions is dictated solely by unrelated traits.

If we made media about "useful" qualities to women we'd have a legion of billionaire genius doctor-lawyer business men who are totally cool with women having a bunch of hot lovers on the side. And that's kind of what you see when you look at the 50 Shades/Twilight fiction. Which is totally not what videogames portray.

[Pasquale1234]

On the other hand, we have this position, which doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because muscular confident dudes are largely worthless in society. Their career prospects are limited, their social network isn't powerful and impactful, and their access to high-income and high-status professions is dictated solely by unrelated traits.

If we made media about "useful" qualities to women we'd have a legion of billionaire genius doctor-lawyer business men who are totally cool with women having a bunch of hot lovers on the side. And that's kind of what you see when you look at the 50 Shades/Twilight fiction. Which is totally not what videogames portray.

 

Excellent points, very applicable to the modern world as we know it.

 

Videogames feature content that offers experiences most of us will never have, though.  Because of the focus on combat, it makes sense that (at least some of) the body models will appear to be exceptionally physically competent - strong, powerful, competent on the battlefield.  Those traits already tend to be exemplified in male characters.  I'd like to see more muscled, athletic female bodies in games.
 

[Steelcan]

Excellent points, very applicable to the modern world as we know it.
 
Videogames feature content that offers experiences most of us will never have, though.  Because of the focus on combat, it makes sense that (at least some of) the body models will appear to be exceptionally physically competent - strong, powerful, competent on the battlefield.  Those traits already tend to be exemplified in male characters.  I'd like to see more muscled, athletic female bodies in games.

. After being horrifically underwhelmed with BioWare's recent stabs at this, Ashley, Aveline, and Cassandra, I'm not sure I'd be on board for another try

[Altair_ShepardN7]

On the other hand, we have this position, which doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because muscular confident dudes are largely worthless in society. Their career prospects are limited, their social network isn't powerful and impactful, and their access to high-income and high-status professions is dictated solely by unrelated traits.

If we made media about "useful" qualities to women we'd have a legion of billionaire genius doctor-lawyer business men who are totally cool with women having a bunch of hot lovers on the side. And that's kind of what you see when you look at the 50 Shades/Twilight fiction. Which is totally not what videogames portray.

It is most likely something biological, from back in the day when humans were hunters and gatherers. Men had to be strong, fast, agile, etc. in order to be able to go outside into the woods and hunt animals for food, bring resources, etc. A stronger man was better than a weaker man and had a better chance of surviving and bringing more resources. Most men are attracted to women without hair because less hair = less parasites who carry diseases, thus improving the chance of having healthy offspring (this goes back to the very early humans), and so on. There are lots of biological and evolutionary things that are stored deep in our natural instinct and subconsciousness that heavily influence human sexuality and society, even if they are pretty much useless nowadays. 

[Ghost]

 

Again, focusing on the important things in ME3..

Not sure if you are actually being serious or not but that is because all the females and males in the game use the same "generic" body type and Liara got her own unique body type starting in ME2.

[DaemionMoadrin]

On the other hand, we have this position, which doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because muscular confident dudes are largely worthless in society. Their career prospects are limited, their social network isn't powerful and impactful, and their access to high-income and high-status professions is dictated solely by unrelated traits.

If we made media about "useful" qualities to women we'd have a legion of billionaire genius doctor-lawyer business men who are totally cool with women having a bunch of hot lovers on the side. And that's kind of what you see when you look at the 50 Shades/Twilight fiction. Which is totally not what videogames portray.

 

Well, we shouldn't confuse fantasy with reality. While I'm sure that there are many women who would go for that type, there are more who wouldn't enjoy such a life.

[Pasquale1234]

. After being horrifically underwhelmed with BioWare's recent stabs at this, Ashley, Aveline, and Cassandra, I'm not sure I'd be on board for another try

 

Ashley, Aveline, and Cassandra had well-muscled, athletic bodies?  News to me.
 

[Panda]

Honest question: Is there any data that supports what kind of women women idealize?

Because from the very limited data I have, it is pretty close to what we have in games like ME. Aka strong, healthy capable and yes beautiful women.

 

There are also a lot of common modern myths associated with this statement of yours, like  the "fact" that women are physically incapable of sexualize other people. Which of course is complete hogwash. Having seen women drool at soccer players (of either gender, depending on preference) and other athletes, or do things like having Nude Firefighter Calendars hanging on the wall (again, of either preference).

 

I didn't find any, I mean anything too reliable. From my experience women seem to idealize woman that is strong, confident and beatiful. But everyone likes beatiful things, the things they find beatiful just might differ alot.

 

I don't think women are incapable of sexualising people, people who think so haven't seen fanart and fanfics ^^;

[CDR Aedan Cousland]

Oh boy, "muh patriarchy!" and "muh patriarchy backfiring!" Like I don't see enough of this garbage on tumblr.

Edit: Fixed typo; phone = autocorrect. Should be sleeping.

[AresKeith]

. After being horrifically underwhelmed with BioWare's recent stabs at this, Ashley, Aveline, and Cassandra, I'm not sure I'd be on board for another try

 

I'd wish they had well-muscled athletic bodies   

[SnakeCode]

. After being horrifically underwhelmed with BioWare's recent stabs at this, Ashley, Aveline, and Cassandra, I'm not sure I'd be on board for another try

 

I really like Cassandra     and Aveline, but I see your point. I don't see this becoming a thing though, maybe in Bioware games, but not in videogames as a whole. When you have a tonne of straight guys designing female characters, they aren't going to make them visually unappealing to themselves, unless that's the point of the character (we see this in media all the time. Good guys = attractive, bad guys = ugly.) it just isn't going to happen. Contrary to popular BSN belief, there are loads of women that would rather play as a traditionally feminine, attractive character than the female equivalent of a male. It's a small subset of incredibly vocal, self victimizing fans that think women in games should be portrayed in a "realistic" way. Thinking devs should strive for mediocrity. To do that you would have to change the way a lot of guy's minds work, and that just isn't going to happen.

[Quarian Master Race]

. After being horrifically underwhelmed with BioWare's recent stabs at this, Ashley, Aveline, and Cassandra, I'm not sure I'd be on board for another try

Can't speak for the DA games since I've only played the first. But Ash wasn't really muscular. She was lean and relatively fit, but she still had the twiglike arms that all ME females seemed to share.



Still, at least it looks like she actually could run a few miles without collapsing from exhaustion or pass a PT test, unlike some of the more....voluptuous female characters in the games.

[Awkward Octopus]

But the difference - and it is an important difference - is that the ultimate impact in terms of body image issues is still there for both genders. The dynamics behind what drives those issues is different.

"Men" aren't a uniform hive-minded group with a single ideal or mode of thought. Some men might feel powerful roided out monster. Others might feel inadequate, suffer from image issues, etc. Saying that there's a meaningful difference here because it's other men causing the harm is, I think, completely besides the point.

This situation - the roided out dudes as a physical ideal - is exhibit #1 in how sexism hurts men too.

In both cases it's a subset of men imposing their idealised view of the world on everyone. There's a lot of historical disadvantage when it comes to women being objectifed but, in my view, the answer here is to find common cause.

 

Ah, I'm apparently failing to get my point across very well. But I'm trying to say that I agree with you, honest. I'm just being a little frivolous in my wording. I'll try to stop that.

 

Of course I don't think all men want the same thing or whatever, and just because I said that the industry is mostly men doesn't mean I'm being dismissive of the issue. It's still true that we see the same stereotypes again and again. I don't know. Draw your own conclusions. Blame it on marketing or on culture if you like. We agree that it needs to change.

 

Honest question: Is there any data that supports what kind of women women idealize?

Because from the very limited data I have, it is pretty close to what we have in games like ME. Aka strong, healthy capable and yes beautiful women.

 

There are also a lot of common modern myths associated with this statement of yours, like  the "fact" that women are physically incapable of sexualize other people. Which of course is complete hogwash. Having seen women drool at soccer players (of either gender, depending on preference) and other athletes, or do things like having Nude Firefighter Calendars hanging on the wall (again, of either preference).

 

Alas, I do not know of like, a database or study or anything off the top of my head. I can only speak to my own experiences and those I know around me. But I would say that yes, of course women want to be strong, healthy, capable, beautiful, etc. - but I would argue that what women think that looks like tends to be on a broader spectrum than the typical thing we usually see. But again, I'm not just talking about the way women look, I'm talking about how they're portrayed. I think it's safe to say that a women cinematic designer probably wouldn't have used the butt-cam as much.

 

Also, apparently even mentioning that the game industry is male dominated (which is true) is making people assume things about what I'm saying.

 

As for the second part, I believe I made that exact same point in an earlier post of mine, unless I'm misunderstanding something?