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Bioware, please no overly sexualized characters!


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#2126
eyezonlyii

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Yes because being in great shape =/= bodybuilder. 

 

Of course that is true, but the survey wasn't given to soley bodybuilders as far as I know. What I meant to convey was that someone posted the results of the study in a bodybuilder forum and then the angst started. 

 

All I'm saying is that when men bring up the "but men are sexualized in videogames too!" part of the argument, they are overemphasizing just how much of that sexualization is for women, as opposed to reaffirming the masculine depiction of men...for men. Essentially I'm saying that the "sexualization" that men suffer in videogames isn't necessarily for or about the female (or gay male) player gaze. It's for men (of all orientations, but more specifically straight men) to play an exaggerated version of themselves. They are a male, thus when a male chracter is a beefed up man, it "fits". It's like turning up the volume on a speaker so you can hear and enjoy the music more.

 

Also since mostly men design and develop games, the same holds true for women in those same games. Just look at all the posts in the DA:I forum complaining that Cassandra and Josephine weren't "pretty" like Leliana and Morrigan, who adhere to exaggerated standards of typical beauty. I'm not saying it's a terrible thing, just that it exists and that if we're going to get male NPCs who fall outside of the exaggerated gamer norm, we should get women who do so as well.


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#2127
Han Shot First

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And on the opposite spectrum is what men find attractive in women and it's not slender or athletic. So I doubt athletic shapes will be available to those of us who want it for our MC.

 

https://www.psycholo.../eternal-curves

 

I think that depends on what it is meant by athletic.

 

There have been plenty of female olympians over the years for example, who were as famous for their looks as their athletic prowess. And there have been a couple female tennis players who've had male fans who couldn't care less about tennis. 


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#2128
In Exile

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I can't even believe i'm having this conversation, just look at any male sex symbol! Almost all of them are in great shape physically. There's a reason people who become sex symbols despite not having those qualities are seen as niche, and are placed in various "weird crush" lists. Guys like David Beckham, Brad Pitt and Hugh Jackman are the norm in this regard They all regularly grace the covers of magazines aimed at women. Guys like Jack Black and Jay Baruchel aren't.


Look at George Clooney and John Hamm. These are men who are in shape in the sense that they aren't fat but they aren't cut the way Brad Pitt was and certainly aren't Huge Jackedman. In fact Hugh Jackman was a leading "sexy" man back with how he looked in X-men 1 which certainly wasn't Vega buff.
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#2129
Quarian Master Race

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No, because transgenders fall in the he/she category. "It" is something I've gotten used to say on the internet since God knows when, since you have no idea who the hell is behind that monitor. Could be an alien, or an AI, or a group of people, or a demon.... It could be anything. Don't put words in my mouth. 

Judging by how the account was created yesterday, I think "it" is a butthurt disciple of one of the female LI's discussed in this thread that isn't Tali. They all tend to obsess and war against each other over things that are nonsensical to the average sane individual, such as defending their imaginary space girlfriend's honour against infidel believers of other feminine deities.

Don't respond to it. You'll only provoke its feral nature and it will bring its pack.



#2130
Altair_ShepardN7

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Then word yourself better instead of trying to be a smartass. 

KwQgEdI.gif

Or maybe you should stop labeling yourself...



#2131
eyezonlyii

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I think that depends on what it is meant by athletic.

 

There have been plenty of female olympians over the years for example, who were as famous for their looks as their athletic prowess. And there have been a couple female tennis players who've had male fans who couldn't care less about tennis. 

image19.jpg

 

I would definitely go straight for this.


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#2132
RevilFox

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Either. I'm saying that guys who are lean, in shape and toned are considered to be more attractive than guys who are out of shape. Chubby guys and skinny guys usually aren't considered to be sexy. That survey that was posted should give you a pretty good idea of what i'm talking about.

I just want to be clear on your stance, because there's a lot of opinions being thrown around and the can get mixed. You're saying that, everything being equal, most women would prefer a lean, in shape guy over a bodybuilder, a chubby guy, or a skinny guy, right? And that, given the same options, most men prefer a skinny girl over a bodybuilder, a chubby girl, or a lean, in shape girl?



#2133
SnakeCode

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Look at George Clooney and John Hamm. These are men who are in shape in the sense that they aren't fat but they aren't cut the way Brad Pitt was and certainly aren't Huge Jackedman. In fact Hugh Jackman was a leading "sexy" man back with how he looked in X-men 1 which certainly wasn't Vega buff.

Not once have I said that male sex symbols are as built as Vega. I said those guys ar invariably in great shape. Being in shape does not mean you are a bodybuilder. 



#2134
In Exile

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Not once have I said that male sex symbols are as built as Vega. I said those guys ar invariably in great shape. Being in shape does not mean you are a bodybuilder.


I don't get why rhetorical hyperboles are so difficult for you. No, you didn't say it. It was a quip.

Look at a picture of John Hamm from Mad Men shirtless. He's not anything like Brad Pitt in fight club, who was crazy cut. But Brad Pitt is on the skinny side.

And now turn to Japan. Their "sex symbols" are universally thin by our standards.

#2135
DaemionMoadrin

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Either. I'm saying that guys who are lean, in shape and toned are considered to be more attractive than guys who are out of shape. Chubby guys and skinny guys usually aren't considered to be sexy. That survey that was posted should give you a pretty good idea of what i'm talking about.

 

Just wanted to make sure. Those actors look more normal than you'd think, they only train up for those scenes and once they are done, they stop their diets and training. ^^



#2136
SnakeCode

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I just want to be clear on your stance, because there's a lot of opinions being thrown around and the can get mixed. You're saying that, everything being equal, most women would prefer a lean, in shape guy over a bodybuilder, a chubby guy, or a skinny guy, right? And that, given the same options, most men prefer a skinny girl over a bodybuilder, a chubby girl, or a lean, in shape girl?

 

Yes, though I wouldn't say that guys like "skinny" girls, it's usually more to do with womanly figures, so more curves is usually better than skinny. I think a lot of guys like lean, in shape women as well. It's when they're a little too muscular or cut when they get a little put off. I don't know many guys who like women with six packs for example.



#2137
AresKeith

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I think that depends on what it is meant by athletic.

 

There have been plenty of female olympians over the years for example, who were as famous for their looks as their athletic prowess. And there have been a couple female tennis players who've had male fans who couldn't care less about tennis. 

 

I'm sure female hockey players and cage fighters have a lot of male fans too  :wub:


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#2138
Lady Artifice

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On the other hand, we have this position, which doesn't make sense. And it doesn't make sense because muscular confident dudes are largely worthless in society. Their career prospects are limited, their social network isn't powerful and impactful, and their access to high-income and high-status professions is dictated solely by unrelated traits.

If we made media about "useful" qualities to women we'd have a legion of billionaire genius doctor-lawyer business men who are totally cool with women having a bunch of hot lovers on the side. And that's kind of what you see when you look at the 50 Shades/Twilight fiction. Which is totally not what videogames portray.

 

I apologize in advance for nitpicking, but the examples you're using both showcase male romantic leads that are extremely possessive and jealous, complete with paranoia and a kind of precautionary stalking, and then romanticize that characteristic as though it's something desirable in a male partner. Both of them would be infuriated by the very idea of lovers on the side.

 

Both stories are continually called out in academic studies as being a result of a patriarchal mentality, even while being written by women. 

 

The point you're making though, about there being other important factors in the "usefulness" of a man than the size of their muscles, is completely understood. 


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#2139
BabyPuncher

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Clear smooth skin, pretty eyes, and silky hair are probably 'useless' in determining the quality of a mate's genes and the health of their hypothetical child in the age of modern medicine.

 

They still matter.



#2140
SnakeCode

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Just wanted to make sure. Those actors look more normal than you'd think, they only train up for those scenes and once they are done, they stop their diets and training. ^^

 

True, but the pictures of them being slightly chubby and out of shape aren't the pictures that droves of women oggle at are they? It's usually the well lit, heavily photoshopped pictures that make them look their best. So basically the same as the kinds of pictures of women that men oggle at.


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#2141
Han Shot First

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I'm sure female hockey players and cage fighters have a lot of male fans too  :wub:

 

I'm not familiar with any female hockey players, but I can think of a couple people with martial arts backgrounds. Gina Carano & Katheryn Winnick. Carano is a former MMA fighter and Winnick, while famous for her role as Lagertha in VIkings, was a black belt who ran a couple martial arts studios before she got involved with acting. 

 

On that note I'd have to disagree with men finding athletic women attractive. Unless Saffronette meant the female equivalent of Vega, but that would be a very narrow definition of athletic, IMO.



#2142
Kappa Neko

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Biologically, we ALL are programmed to find healthy-looking people attractive. That generally means that the person looks at least somewhat athletic, strong and also beautiful. Because in order to look good, you need to be healthy, you need to be well-fed and free of disease. You needed to be strong enough to survive wildlife attacks and exhausting hunts. That was true for men and women. A crack addict or malnourished farmer never looks pretty.

 

Our current beauty ideals do only partially still represent that. I fully agree with those of you who argue that social ideals are harmful to both men and women. Nobody can live up to them unless they dedicate their entires lives to looking pretty. However, what is considered attractive in women today is the exact opposite of healthy and fit, while the beauty ideal for men hasn't changed that much.

Yes, seeing extremely muscular men all the time leads to self-esteem issues in male teens. But at least they go to the gym and try to get strong. That is not a bad thing in itself. But what about girls? They ****** starve themselves half to death because the current beauty ideal for women is to be weak and helpless.

 

In other words, the idealized man of today is still as valid a sexual partner as he would have been in our cavemen days. But the idealized woman wouldn't last a day. She is malnourished, weak and would probably die in childbirth. In fact, some women stop having their period because they are too thin and the body shuts down reproduction since surviving a pregnancy becomes questionable...

THAT is what our society does to women. It has nothing to do with biology. Biologically, only healthy individuals are attractive partners. Our super-models do not look healthy at all. Most actresses do not look too healthy. Most male models still look healthy, our male actors look healthy.

 

I have to say though that women in video games are actually not portrayed as weak as society demands real women to be in order to be desirable. There are many many kickass women in video games. They look much less athletic than male characters, but at least they are portrayed as strong in all games where you can play a woman.

The damsel in distress is as popular as ever, but the representation of women is actually much more diverse than that of men. Decades of gender discussions have left a very positive mark on gaming for women. It's male characters that need work very desperately now.

The job is not done when all women are presented as extremely capable and strong. We need an equally diverse representation of men. But I cannot think of more than a couple of examples of male protagonists that are appealing to me as a female gamer. And it's not just women who have grown so tired of the testosterone monsters that keep being thrown at the player. I have no problem finding cool female characters in video games as role models. What kind of role model do male players have? Very poor ones. The average male protagonist is ridiculously muscular, sometimes grotesquely so, unemotional, doesn't talk much, single, only lives to fight and bang women. In other words, games dehumanize men. That's actually not better than objectifying women. It's just as harmful. It leads to boys thinking they can never show weakness, they are not allowed to be afraid or cry. They MUST suppress feelings, only solve conflicts with violence, and sleep around as much as possible to be cool. It's always male characters that smoke in games, too. A lot of things that are harmful to one's health are being idealized as sexually desirable in men.

 

There is still a lot wrong in video games, but to me there is more wrong with male characters these days.

I am starved for complex emotionally balanced male characters. I have to gush over female characters like Cassandra and girl-crush on Liara hard because there are so few male characters I can cheer for. Sweet male characters like Alistair are so incredibly rare. That makes me very sad.

In games we have seductive women, very feminine emotional women, nerdy women, shy women, outgoing women, funny women, gloomy women, stoic women, cruel women, sweet women, smart women, dumb women, strong women, weak women - in abundance. They are protagonists as well as NPCs. I have a hard time coming up with a specific type of woman in video games other than always being pretty. But personality-wise they are very diverse. Both men and women find these women attractive for all kinds of reasons that aren't just their looks. But to me anyway there is a very specific, narrow definition of a heroic male video game character. Male players are being shoehorned into a certain power fantasy. I'm not saying that it isn't one that men find appealing naturally, but it's one that denies any other type of fantasy by just not offering it.

The way I see it, women and men get poor male characters to idealize. But maybe it's just me who strongly dislikes almost all male video game characters and finds most of them incredibly boring.

 

Ok, this might have been a bit long and too off-topic, apologies...


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#2143
Awkward Octopus

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Because Hugh Jackman was mentioned, I thought this would be an interesting thing to point out:

 

Mr. Jackman on the cover of a men's magazine:

 

Spoiler

 

Mr. Jackman on the cover of a women's magazine:

 

Spoiler

 

EDIT: These both came out the same month. I know the men's magazine is a fitness magazine and the women's magazine is not. It's still interesting.


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#2144
RevilFox

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Yes, though I wouldn't say that guys like "skinny" girls, it's usually more to do with womanly figures, so more curves is usually better than skinny. I think a lot of guys like lean, in shape women as well. It's when they're a little too muscular or cut when they get a little put off. I don't know many guys who like women with six packs for example.

It's possible that I'm getting your stance confused with something someone said in the Romance thread, then. I think your stance on what women find physically attractive in men is probably pretty accurate. I'm less sure about your stance on what men find physically attractive on women, but not contentiously so. I actually think the "girl next door" look is what the majority of men have found physically appealing in women historically, but that preference is slowly changing into preferring more athletic women. 

 

Edit: Having said that, I think that women tend to value personality over physical appearance the majority of the time. With men I'm not so sure it's the majority of the time. Hence the reason you tend to see the "Ugly Boyfriend/Hot Girlfriend" pairing much more often than the "Ugly Girlfriend/Hot Boyfriend" pairing. 



#2145
von uber

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Jessica Ennis.
Or Kelly Holmes.
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#2146
SnakeCode

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@Awkward  Octopus- And that goes back to what I was saying before about men being sexualised in different ways to women.



#2147
RevilFox

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@Awkward  Octopus- And that goes back to what I was saying before about men being sexualised in different ways to women.

You'd characterize the depiction of Hugh Jackman on the cover of Good Housekeeping as sexualized? 


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#2148
Avilan II

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Ah, I'm apparently failing to get my point across very well. But I'm trying to say that I agree with you, honest. I'm just being a little frivolous in my wording. I'll try to stop that.

 

Of course I don't think all men want the same thing or whatever, and just because I said that the industry is mostly men doesn't mean I'm being dismissive of the issue. It's still true that we see the same stereotypes again and again. I don't know. Draw your own conclusions. Blame it on marketing or on culture if you like. We agree that it needs to change.

 

 

Alas, I do not know of like, a database or study or anything off the top of my head. I can only speak to my own experiences and those I know around me. But I would say that yes, of course women want to be strong, healthy, capable, beautiful, etc. - but I would argue that what women think that looks like tends to be on a broader spectrum than the typical thing we usually see. But again, I'm not just talking about the way women look, I'm talking about how they're portrayed. I think it's safe to say that a women cinematic designer probably wouldn't have used the butt-cam as much.

 

Also, apparently even mentioning that the game industry is male dominated (which is true) is making people assume things about what I'm saying. <_<

 

As for the second part, I believe I made that exact same point in an earlier post of mine, unless I'm misunderstanding something?

 

Ah, but my point was the ME type of characters, which seems to fall right into that group women idealizes. 

As for the second part... My point there was more a rant towards certain arguments that have popped up in this industry over the last 5 years or so.



#2149
AresKeith

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I'm not familiar with any female hockey players, but I can think of a couple people with martial arts backgrounds. Gina Carano & Katheryn Winnick. Carano is a former MMA fighter and Winnick, while famous for her role as Lagertha in VIkings, was a black belt who ran a couple martial arts studios before she got involved with acting. 

 

On that note I'd have to disagree with men finding athletic women attractive. Unless Saffronette meant the female equivalent of Vega, but that would be a very narrow definition of athletic, IMO.

 

Only female hockey player I actually know of is Hilary Knight 



#2150
Giant ambush beetle

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I'm sure female hockey players and cage fighters have a lot of male fans too  :wub:

 

*raises hand*

 

I really like athletic looking women (athletic, not over the top), and I even know why. Athletic looks is a sign of health and that the person is not a boring couch potato. In contrast, look at the lifestyles of catwalk models, wow, I'd never be interested on one of those women. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, going for looks isn't as shallow as it may seem, looks tell a truckload about a persons life style and thus personality. 


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