63 respuestas en este tema

[ShadowLordXII]

Not sure if a supplemental book is the best way to discredit Anders' assertions about the Chantry's mistreatment.

 

Optional Read > Games

[Gervaise]

The Circle was always a two tier system with one rule for the children of nobility and another for children of commoners.    Noble children keep contact with their families who can buy them privileges within the Circle and arrange for access arrangements, trips out to social functions, etc.   The only downside is you can't inherit land and titles.   (I suspect the reason Emile didn't get out much is because his family found him a social embarrassment).  The only way a commoner mage can get similar treatment is to get in the good graces of the nobility (like Vivienne).     How the baby of a noble mage would be treated would I imagine entirely depend on their family.   Either the child would be given over for them to raise outside the Circle or they would disown it (depending I suspect on the father) and hand it over to the Chantry.    

 

Anders' experiences are those of a commoner.   He was torn away from his family never to see them again or have any sort of contact with them.   Even if not abused himself, he witnessed what happened to other people.  Just because Wynne was allowed one day with her baby, doesn't mean that in the majority of cases that was the case.   He mentions about suicide being a common form of death among mages.   This is mentioned in WoT2 in connection with Orsino and a girl he knew as a young mage but again, these were commoners.  

 

I always thought that Anders was exaggerating about how things were in the Circles until I overheard a conversation between Cole and Cassandra where Cole is remembering the thoughts and words of Templars concerning the sexual abuse of tranquil (because they won't object).   Cassandra was appalled at these sentiments but it opened her eyes to the sort of things the Seekers didn't know about (or chose to ignore).    Also we discover that Alrik wasn't an isolated instance of misuse of power and when Cullen tells us the history of Samson and Madox he admits that Meredith did make mages tranquil for quite trivial offences, which as Anders pointed out was illegal according to Chantry law.     So what went on in the Kirkwall Circle was not without her knowledge but with her approval.   This was before she even took possession of the lyrium idol.      

 

With the memories of Cole, Cullen  and the evidence given in WoT2 (which is after all meant to give an accurate picture of the game world) I've actually come to have more confidence on what Anders claimed rather than less.    I still don't agree with him bombing the Chantry but he was right to rage against such an unjust system. 

[Sah291]

The Circle was always a two tier system with one rule for the children of nobility and another for children of commoners.    Noble children keep contact with their families who can buy them privileges within the Circle and arrange for access arrangements, trips out to social functions, etc.   The only downside is you can't inherit land and titles.   (I suspect the reason Emile didn't get out much is because his family found him a social embarrassment).  The only way a commoner mage can get similar treatment is to get in the good graces of the nobility (like Vivienne).     How the baby of a noble mage would be treated would I imagine entirely depend on their family.   Either the child would be given over for them to raise outside the Circle or they would disown it (depending I suspect on the father) and hand it over to the Chantry.    

 

Good point. Plus according to Tobrius, the Templars used to be able to judge the law a bit more freely, so the circles had gotten more strict over the years. In fact, I don't think the mages ever intended for the circles to become prisons, according to the history codex, and the relationship with Templars used to be much different. The mages created the circles, not the chantry/templars, and they were just supposed to be safe havens for mages to practice their magic safely, away from ignorant commoners. Wynne tells a very different story about how she came to the circle as a little girl...she wasn't ripped away from her family in chains, she was rescued by a Templar, who carried her up on his shoulders. 

[MisterJB]

How is it a good point? Wynne was never a noble.

[Sah291]

How is it a good point? Wynne was never a noble.

 

No, but she was a respected mage in the circle, even before joining with the HoF. The narrative suggests it wasn't always so black and white....some mages had prestige and privilege, and are/were still an educated class in society. Templars weren't as strict as they were in later years. They clamped down, especially after Uldred. 

 

I think the story of the circles is the classic case of an institution set up for protection turning on itself. Privileged mages from the Chantry set it up because they feared the ex slave peasantry.

[Toxicity]

I don't remember reading that she had an entire day to spend with Rhys. But I have no proof and I CBA to check right now. Also, Rhys' father was a Templar.. curious.. but whatever. Anders may have lied or exaggerated, hardly, though. As if one day makes a difference. They might as well not even see the child. 

[Vit246]

This is evidence that Anders exaggerates or outright lies to us about the Circle?

Seriously. Try. Harder.

This doesn't even detract from the fact that under the system, children are taken away from their parents. Which cannot be good for the mental and emotional well-being.

You're not even bothered by that.

Aren't you the same OP that said you would never allow your kid to be taken away from you and sent to the Circle or something?

Sigh, the lengths that some people go through to defend the Circle

[Kynare]

This is evidence that Anders exaggerates or outright lies to us about the Circle?

Seriously. Try. Harder.

This doesn't even detract from the fact that under the system, children are taken away from their parents. Which cannot be good for the mental and emotional well-being.

You're not even bothered by that.

Aren't you the same OP that said you would never allow your kid to be taken away from you and sent to the Circle or something?

Sigh, the lengths that some people go through to defend the Circle

 

You forgot the part where naive or badly-raised mage children can easily be taken over by a demon and slaughter innocent people...

I'm cool with the Circle, it's a place full of resources for children, men and women alike to learn how to control their talents. I believe it's the Chantry's tactics that people should have a problem with in the DA universe (and the main party Anders was opposed to)

[Vit246]

You forgot the part where naive or badly-raised mage children can easily be taken over by a demon and slaughter innocent people...

I'm cool with the Circle, it's a place full of resources for children, men and women alike to learn how to control their talents. I believe it's the Chantry's tactics that people should have a problem with in the DA universe (and the main party Anders was opposed to)

 

What, you mean like Bethany and Hawke?

[Yaroub]

What, you mean like Bethany and Hawke?

 

More like Connor.

[Illegitimus]

In "Mark of the Assassin", Anders says:

"At the Circle, any accidental babies are taken away before the mother even sees them."

 

Except, there is this from The World of Thedas Volume 2, page 89:

 

"Wynne gave birth to a healthy baby boy, whom she was allowed one day with before he was taken into Chantry custody."

 

Now, I'm not going to say one day it's all that big a deal. In fact, it could be even more heartbreaking, just picture Wynne holding Rhys, trying to make every second count.

But she was allowed a day with him. Therefore, it can't be "any accidental babies". It could be "most accidental babies" but there are clearly cases where the mother is allowed a day with the baby before it is taken away.

Anders was from Kinloch Hold so, this was something he should be aware of.

 

No, this isn't something he should be aware of.  He is not a woman who gave birth to a child.  Any information he'd have about the subject would be second hand and anecdotal at best.  

[Tidus]

Wynne mentions her son in DA:O but, doesn't go into great detail. I often wondered if the mother and father was mages wouldn't the child be as well?   Could the father of Wynne's son be none other then the  First Enchanter?  Wynne and Irving seems to be very close.

 

I wondered if trusted  female mages  could have a relationship with trusted male mages or maybe certain Templars?  We know it was  well known that Cullins was in love with the PC mage and later says they (the blood mages ) dug deep into memories and used his greatest shame against him- his love for the PC mage--this was before he finds out she wasn't a illusion used by the BMs to trick him. This is one of my favorite parts since you can discuss the relationship-Wynne of course butts in and says "Now isn't the time to discuss this".

 

As a personal thought I wish it was possible for the PC mage to kiss Cullens on the cheek before  leaving the circle to return to Redcliff castle.  I use a PS3.. Been thinking about getting a better lap top and buying all three DAs and using mods.

[sniper_arrow]

Wynne mentions her son in DA:O but, doesn't go into great detail. I often wondered if the mother and father was mages wouldn't the child be as well?   Could the father of Wynne's son be none other then the  First Enchanter?  Wynne and Irving seems to be very close.

 

I wondered if trusted  female mages  could have a relationship with trusted male mages or maybe certain Templars?  We know it was  well known that Cullins was in love with the PC mage and later says they (the blood mages ) dug deep into memories and used his greatest shame against him- his love for the PC mage--this was before he finds out she wasn't a illusion used by the BMs to trick him. This is one of my favorite parts since you can discuss the relationship-Wynne of course butts in and says "Now isn't the time to discuss this".

 

As a personal thought I wish it was possible for the PC mage to kiss Cullens on the cheek before  leaving the circle to return to Redcliff castle.  I use a PS3.. Been thinking about getting a better lap top and buying all three DAs and using mods.

 

It was revealed in World of Thedas vol.2 that a templar was the father. 

[Illegitimus]

The father was a Templar which was always a no-no.  As to whether mages could have been permitted relationships with each other, that depended on the administration of the individual circle, which was highly variable.  The child of mages was likely but not certain to be a mage in turn.  It runs in families but not in a simple Mendelian way.  

[Tidus]

Thanks! I haven't read the book yet but, its on the top of my to buy list.

 

It may be me or my play style it seems I find something new in every game..

[Fylimar]

Rhys, Wynnes son, is the main character in the novel Asunder - it's a great read.

 

About Anders lying: I don't think so. Given, that the father of Wynnes child was a templar, that might have given her a special treatment. I personally think, that it is more cruel to let the mother see the child before taking it away, but it probably was meant as a kindness to Wynne. I think, that Anders remark is still true for the majority of mages - as someone mentioned, he is hardly a good liar. And he had no reason to lie in that context - it was just a remark. 

[kimgoold]

If the Chantry left the Circles as they were meant to be, safe environments for Mages to learn to control themselves and master magic I would have no problems with Circles but instead you have a system that allows another group to have absolute dominance over another, and that is just an environment that breeds cruelty. As the games have shown us with the systemic violence and injustice inflicted on some Circles by the jailor Templars with the full support of the Chantry and Seekers who are supposed to temper this oversight with compassion.

 

And on the Anders issue he is such a manipulative a-hole. I have no problems killing him at all and I'm pro-mage, but killing people like that  or trying to emotionally blackmailing me to help do it . Nope the dude dies in all my playthrus.

[KCMeredith]

Of course he exaggerates

 

Anyone who thinks differently should kindly report to the nearest templar for his rite of tranquility.

[springacres]

Of course he exaggerates

 

Anyone who thinks differently should kindly report to the nearest templar for his rite of tranquility.

I wouldn't suggest trying that on a Warden-Commander of Ferelden who travels with a former Crow and has contacts both within the Fereldan royal palace and within Val Royeaux.  I might not agree with Anders' reasoning or methods, but some change in the Templar Order would be welcome.

[KCMeredith]

I wouldn't suggest trying that on a Warden-Commander of Ferelden who travels with a former Crow and has contacts both within the Fereldan royal palace and within Val Royeaux.  I might not agree with Anders' reasoning or methods, but some change in the Templar Order would be welcome.

Alright, you're first. Get over here mage

[RoseLawliet]

Alright, you're first. Get over here mage

 

Try that on a Warden-Commander who's best friends with said former Crow and married to the king of Ferelden. Oh, wait. A templar already did try that, in a warehouse in Amaranthine. She... died. Mysteriously.

[springacres]

Alright, you're first. Get over here mage

First, please state what authority gives you the right to break Chantry law by performing the Rite on a Harrowed mage.  Second, please explain what authority gives Templars the right to command Grey Wardens.

[springacres]

-steps out of character- I don't normally do that sort of in-thread RP, but my canon Warden insisted.

[RoseLawliet]

First, please state what authority gives you the right to break Chantry law by performing the Rite on a Harrowed mage.  Second, please explain what authority gives Templars the right to command Grey Wardens.

 

I know I've mentioned this somewhere else, but I'd love to know whose authority is higher. Like... could a Warden (say, a Warden-Commander who seems to routinely get into disagreements with the Chantry and templars... possibly over the freedom of a certain apostate... no one in particular, of course) actually conscript the entirety of the templars? Maybe the grand clerics for good measure? People would be outraged, of course, but... This is one thing I really really want to try.

[springacres]

Not sure any of my Wardens would want to conscript someone as authoritarian as Meredith, but that's an interesting thought!