73 réponses à ce sujet

[Kungsarme]

Since I'm back in college next week (just a month semester cramming in a chemistry course 30 hours a week until my full time fall semester kicks in) and my 41 year old brain doesn't particularly want to peruse math until calc 2 in the fall....

What is the consensus? Crit first then willpower? Attack rings or crit rings? Help an older guy out.

[Drasca]

I would be pleased with comments on that, maybe I've calculated something wrong here.

 

I find that armor has a direct relationship to base damage and final damage. It is already listed in the single player mechanic study by aznricepuff.

 

If you read it correctly, your final damage is a proportion of your base weapon damage and enemy armor. Low base weapon damage vs high armor being affected most of all.

 

 

(base_damage * rand(0.95 to 1.05) - armor * (1 - armor_penetration))

 

I strike it out when demonstrating fade cloak damage because magic ignores armor.

 

There are definitely enemies with zero armor however (Demon Commander immediately comes to mind, but most spellcasters have low or no armor too). The upper end currently is around 60. The higher your base damage is, the less enemy armor matters on a relative scale, but it can still be calculated.

[Drasca]

What is the consensus? Crit first then willpower? Attack rings or crit rings? Help an older guy out.

 

Consensus implies there's multiple players that agree on the same thing, and that it matters that more opinions mean they're right. Hint: Consensus is not required.

 

Maximizing a certain promote without regard to the other team is less effective in the long run than maximizing time with team synergy

 

Here's what you should be doing:

 

0) Don't decide what classes you're using before entering the lobby.

 

1) Assess what gear and builds you have available to you

 

2) Find out what classes works with your team (thus creating synergy for the team), putting priority filling in necessary roles as necessary

--i.e. having one of each class means more treasure rooms, more gold, and more chests opened for better gear

--using classes that benefit off other classes also mean faster clears, and more done per time, thus more gold/gear/etc

 

3) Use those you can farm the exp/time the fastest on based on the aforementioned criteria

 

Farming cunning with a rogue wiht inquisition weapons (or otherwise common gear) is ultimately slower than if you're playing Virtuoso / Elementalist if you have Staff of the Dragon, or an Katari with Maul of the Dragon, etc.

 

If you have zero gear at all, use Keeper, Virtuoso, or Elementalist and play Perilous Fereldan Castle Frost maps until you have Dragon gear.

 

Switch between Barrier / Control builds and DPS builds as you gain more gear and it becomes applicable.

[yarpenthemad21]

I find that armor has a direct relationship to base damage and final damage. It is already listed in the single player mechanic study by aznricepuff.
 
If you read it correctly, your final damage is a proportion of your base weapon damage and enemy armor. Low base weapon damage vs high armor being affected most of all.
 
 
I strike it out when demonstrating fade cloak damage because magic ignores armor.
 
There are definitely enemies with zero armor however (Demon Commander immediately comes to mind, but most spellcasters have low or no armor too). The upper end currently is around 60. The higher your base damage is, the less enemy armor matters on a relative scale, but it can still be calculated.

I've used this formula to calculate armor and min/max damage possible.

Difference is huge, because this 60 armor (I think that venatori zealot has around that amount) makes longshot non lethal on them.
What is also important, I've done calculations based around other bows, including also Punch of the Maker and if you can drop heal on kill Punch of the maker with crit damage upgrade is best longshot weapons we have. But when you drop crit ring for HoK ring, dragon bow wins by low margin all the time (for willpower and cunning going to infinity)
It also shows that cruel redemption plain sucks. Always. Base damage is just too low.

[Drasca]

But when you drop crit ring for HoK ring, dragon bow wins by low margin all the time (for willpower and cunning going to infinity)
It also shows that cruel redemption plain sucks. Always. Base damage is just too low.

 

Why would you ever drop crit for HoK ring, especially as CR can be upgraded. That said, I don't have a problem getting lethal with CR or Dragon, even though I do recommend dragon at low cunning & gear. 

 

CR also guarantees self-rez with persistent damage on the field,  even without killing, as it is heal on hit, not kill. Given that it is a very balanced bow with lots of options due to T3 upgrades and heal on hit, it is a very solid bow overall.

 

There may be armored targets, but armor penetration is readily available.

[yarpenthemad21]

Why would you ever drop crit for HoK ring, especially as CR can be upgraded. That said, I don't have a problem getting lethal with CR or Dragon, even though I do recommend dragon at low cunning & gear. 
 
CR also guarantees self-rez with persistent damage on the field,  even without killing, as it is heal on hit, not kill. Given that it is a very balanced bow with lots of options due to T3 upgrades and heal on hit, it is a very solid bow overall.
 
There may be armored targets, but armor penetration is readily available.

I wasn't talking about CR here, but about Punch of the Maker, for it you need to either be without HoK or use ring. T3 upgrades aren't that "great". Either full cloth, full leather or some metal mix.

As for the Cruel Redemption being a solid bow overall.
I would strongly disagree. Longshot is the only skill in archer arsenal for which even CR has a chance to be decent. And still fails.
With 25% armor pen, because this amount we have for sure dragon bow has better non crit and crit hits. 18% lower damage on average on CR.
For every other skill, like leap shot and explosive shot CR ass would be kicked even more.

If someone wants alternative for dragon bow, only punch of the maker, still not as good but closer. CR sucks always.


You don't have problem getting lethal with CR? Have you tried venatori or red templar? How much damage you need, around 4,2k I think.
Last time I've check passives on archer, every damage bonus combined can give around 80% (still it's virtual to get them all), so around 340 willpower is still needed.
Maybe you played archer long time ago before several nerfs to longshot and longshot ring but I doubt you can 1 shot with CR venatori zealot or red templar. I have the same gear as you, the same amount of crit damage. My numbers are closer to 3,4k.

[Courtnehh]

I wasn't talking about CR here, but about Punch of the Maker, for it you need to either be without HoK or use ring. T3 upgrades aren't that "great". Either full cloth, full leather or some metal mix.As for the Cruel Redemption being a solid bow overall.I would strongly disagree. Longshot is the only skill in archer arsenal for which even CR has a chance to be decent. And still fails.With 25% armor pen, because this amount we have for sure dragon bow has better non crit and crit hits. 18% lower damage on average on CR.For every other skill, like leap shot and explosive shot CR ass would be kicked even more.If someone wants alternative for dragon bow, only punch of the maker, still not as good but closer. CR sucks always.You don't have problem getting lethal with CR? Have you tried venatori or red templar? How much damage you need, around 4,2k I think.Last time I've check passives on archer, every damage bonus combined can give around 80% (still it's virtual to get them all), so around 340 willpower is still needed.Maybe you played archer long time ago before several nerfs to longshot and longshot ring but I doubt you can 1 shot with CR venatori zealot or red templar. I have the same gear as you, the same amount of crit damage. My numbers are closer to 3,4k.

Mind me asking what gear you use to hit 3.4k? I'm just curious because post nerf I'm able to hit 3.8k with dragon bow, longshot ring, crit damage ring with 90 odd willpower.

[yarpenthemad21]

Mind me asking what gear you use to hit 3.4k? I'm just curious because post nerf I'm able to hit 3.8k with dragon bow, longshot ring, crit damage ring with 90 odd willpower.

Best possible.
Longshot ring,
superior crit damage ring
dexterity amulet
dragon bow
56 willpower from promotions.

I've seen 4k+ numbers rarely on demons. I've seen some 3,8 - 3,6k too but it mostly happen when some bonus damage kicks in on armored mooks (whatever, flanking, higher ground, low stamina etc, I've got them all at 17 level I think)
Still I would say it won't matter that much. Longshot isn't lethal for me outside of maybe demons, wraiths and archers. And still because archers love to stack instead of group in lines I prefer using explosive shot on them (which can hit hard...)

[Drasca]

 Have you tried venatori or red templar? How much damage you need, around 4,2k I think.

 

The enemy hp actually varies between Vints and Templars. Archers on one faction have 3.4k but only 2.8 on the other. Footsoldiers on one side has 3.8k and the other... I don't remember off-hand. Either way it varies.

 

Also I suspect the other passive ability multipliers are part of the ability multiplier factor, multipliying with critical damage.

 

I wouldn't use or recommend CR at low cunning / crit chance if I had dragon bow as an alternative. However, it isn't always an alternative, but CR is fairly easy to get. Considering with caltrops or spike trap, you're almost guaranteed self rez, along with T3 bow grip upgradeability, it is quite easy to recommend.

 

At end-game it depends on what you're facing, but not every enemy is going to be 60 armor. Those that are insanely large targets or hp pools will face leaping shot --> pincushion --> opporunity knocks --> Leaping shot repeats  synergy, easier to achieve on CR than DB due to inherently upgradeable crit chance.

 

Note: I didn't say CR was better than DB at all times, but it is a solid bow. Can you name one bow that's better than CR outside of dragon bow? I actually argue CR and DB fight for best depending on the player's crit chance and build.

[yarpenthemad21]

Note: I didn't say CR was better than DB at all times, but it is a solid bow. Can you name one bow that's better than CR outside of dragon bow? I actually argue CR and DB fight for best depending on the player's crit chance and build.

Dragon bow is based on theorycrafting just best bow.
Even if you look at armor less targets on which CR can achieve higher crit hits it won't matter, because dragon bow has still enough damage to be lethal there.
On 60 armor scenario and 25% penetration both crits and non crits hit lower on CR than on dragon bow, which makes this bow in red templar scenario (I think every unit there got armor) bad choice.

In that sense CR is solid as any other bow including punch of the maker, griffon etc. You don't take it for damage, you take it either because it is your best or you want special effects of them more than just damage.

Damage wise, the closest bow to dragon bow is Punch of the maker with t3 crit dam upgrade but with HoK ring. Minimal difference on longshot and it could be worth this added CC from explosions.

On the other hand if we take CR and use other t3 upgrade than pure crit damage we really have a bow for threatening at most. Max possible crits go down to 2,8k (armor).

[Westrum]

It's not about 1 shotting mobs, it's about surviving, and doing damage to all mobs (Exp farming).

 

Just my opinion of course

[yarpenthemad21]

It's not about 1 shotting mobs, it's about surviving, and doing damage to all mobs (Exp farming).
 
Just my opinion of course

I don't think that archer in general has tools for it.
Longshot is ultimate taunt skills, aggroing everything damaged by it and sometimes another half of the map too. In that case killing something is pretty much his survival.
As for the XP farming, rogues in general are bad at it.

[capn233]

Damage wise, the closest bow to dragon bow is Punch of the maker with t3 crit dam upgrade but with HoK ring. Minimal difference on longshot and it could be worth this added CC from explosions.

 

Yeah, PBTM seems like one of the best all around bows for people of varied promotions since at low promote you can mod it for +48% crit chance like I did and abuse Opportunity Knocks / Looks Like It Hurt.  When I get enough cunning I will probably go all in on crit damage for the grip.

 

My Druffy hunt commendation pack gave me a CR bow, but I am not so sure how it is going to fit in my stable of PBTM, unique Dragon and Griffon.  I modded it with as much crit chance as I could get with a grip.  But as your math shows it will be difficult to make up base damage difference.

[Drasca]

Damage wise, the closest bow to dragon bow is Punch of the maker with t3 crit dam upgrade but with HoK ring. Minimal difference on longshot and it could be worth this added CC from explosions.

 

Actually no, because PbtM can't get as much Crit Damage as CR and the WB is unreliable. Enemies will be dead way before finishes triggering, if it triggers at all.

 

CR has 27% base CDB, and can achieve 81%  (27+54)% with the grip due to a maximum of 18 offense leather x 3% craggy skin via Thick Bow Grip

PbtM has +16% crit chance, no base crit damage.

 

http://forum.bioware...pment-document/

 

People like to fetishize PbtM. People are stupid.

 

Actually for Red Templars, there's a fair number of low Armor enemies. Horrors and Marksmen off the top of my head are the obvious ones, and I believe the shadows too. Possibly behemoth. Been a while. Need to find out armor values of everything.

 

Either way, its a lot of damage for high crit chance builds and players. Nothing matches it at the moment.

[yarpenthemad21]

Actually no, because PbtM can't get as much Crit Damage as CR and the WB is unreliable. Enemies will be dead way before finishes triggering, if it triggers at all.

This walking bomb works like walking bomb, explosion after death also happens.
 

CR has 27% base CDB, and can achieve 81%  (27+54)% with the grip due to a maximum of 18 offense leather x 3% craggy skin via Thick Bow Grip
PbtM has +16% crit chance, no base crit damage.
 
http://forum.bioware...pment-document/
 
People like to fetishize PbtM. People are stupid.
 
Actually for Red Templars, there's a fair number of low Armor enemies. Horrors and Marksmen off the top of my head are the obvious ones, and I believe the shadows too. Possibly behemoth. Been a while. Need to find out armor values of everything.
 
Either way, its a lot of damage for high crit chance builds and players. Nothing matches it at the moment.

I will only post numbers, because you clearly played archer some ages ago and does not feel it in game at all.

60 armor, 25% pen, "my stats". crit hits:
(Punch of the maker in this scenario uses 54% crit damage upgrade and Heal on Kill ring)

Dragon bow 3497,122618
cruel 3412,283378
punch 3371,233352

Now let ramp up willpower to 300
Dragon bow 4061,846588
cruel 3994,926586
punch 3946,867319

Now 0 armor setup, my stats:
Dragon bow 4698,42428 (overkill)
cruel 5045,823293 (overkill)
punch 4483,023075 (overkill)

For me answer is simple. I don't care about armor less scenario, those enemies either suck, has low health or are just dead.

I would love to see 1 shot kill with longshot using anything really on red templar basic mook with sword.

[Drasca]

I would love to see 1 shot kill with longshot using anything really on red templar basic mook with sword.

 

Come plaaaaay! Its been a while.

 

 

For me answer is simple. I don't care about armor less scenario, those enemies either suck, has low health or are just dead

 

Bosses and other Elite enemies (big targets). Remember the leaping shot geometric damage increase cycle I talked about before?  (pincushion OK , repeat LS). CR finishes off bosses faster and more reliably (heal on hit instead of heal on kill replenishing lost hp).

 

Anything that isn't one shot by AL, is finished with Leaping.

 

You're still not calculating all the passives correctly though.

[yarpenthemad21]

You're still not calculating all the passives correctly though.

I have no idea which of them works in different way than just damage_bonus.

This adding flanking IMO just enables flanking bonus which is turn off when range combat but everything else is just hard to tell.
Still I can't really call any of this passives as "always" there....

In free time I will calculate some explosive shot and leaping shot damage values. CR can be good with longshot, high bonus damage ability but on normal ones, it would suck badly.

[yarpenthemad21]

I had an opportunity to go to fade on perilous red templars...
I've checked basic templar units, he has 4,3K+ hp (4378 or something like that) and 35 armor.

Time was limited so I've got only red templar knight and his 71 armor.

When I calculate and compare 3 bows on 35 armor rating with my stats I have 100 damage (97 to be precise) damage difference between dragon bow crit and CR crit. Around 600 damage on non crit.
At 500 willpower difference on crit is 200 damage, so difference rise very very slow.
What is also annoying even lucky highest possible damage can't be lethal in that situation for me. Only some passive working in different way than damage_bonus can really help with that.
Drasca do you have any idea or clue which passive can work in different way really?

[Cirvante]

When I calculate and compare 3 bows on 35 armor rating with my stats I have 100 damage (97 to be precise) damage difference between dragon bow crit and CR crit. Around 600 damage on non crit.
At 500 willpower difference on crit is 200 damage, so difference rise very very slow.
What is also annoying even lucky highest possible damage can't be lethal in that situation for me. Only some passive working in different way than damage_bonus can really help with that.
Drasca do you have any idea or clue which passive can work in different way really?

 

Perhaps stack up Pincushion with Leaping Shots?

[Drasca]

Drasca do you have any idea or clue which passive can work in different way really?

 

Initial indiications are that passives aren't necessarily damage_multiplier but part of the ability_multiplier on the formula. I also don't know if the different passives multiply with each other vs add with each other.

 

Keep in mind both damage_multiplier and ability_multiplier on the SP formula are simplifications for the sum of everything involved.

[yarpenthemad21]

Initial indiications are that passives aren't necessarily damage_multiplier but part of the ability_multiplier on the formula. I also don't know if the different passives multiply with each other vs add with each other.
 
Keep in mind both damage_multiplier and ability_multiplier on the SP formula are simplifications for the sum of everything involved.

It could be true around passive.

I've run test around archer because, now around longhot ring. Luke changes something with this rings, only he knows what, but I'm pretty sure that description is plain wrong.
What is also sure is that rings as ring works, damage increase is very easy to spot.
I wanted to test it in best way I could, so I've just reset skills of archer and made 2 tests.
First was this passive I need to take for longshot. First blood and it's 15% damage bonus.

Only bioware (probably) knows how it works, but for 95% looking at my tests it's a damage_bonus based passive. Treating it as 15% ability multiplier (so also as 15% relative increase autoattack) based on calculation should give higher numbers. Calculation showed around 320-353 damage and test pretty much was in that area. Treated as ability_multiplier it should be around 20-25 more damage.

So after I've had this passive next was longshot. Tests on routine demons all the time to avoid armor.
Base Longhot is:
125%
375% bonus
Tooltip based damage with ring is way off, way to high.
My damage results where for non crit:
1500-1750
crit around 2650-2950 with one or two times 3000 damage

Hard to say how ring works because few "version" fits this data.

125%*1.3 and non changed bonus damage - works
125% + 30% and 375% + 30% - works
both values * 30% - calculation shows a bit too high damage.

[Drasca]

It could be true around passive.

I've run test around archer because, now around longhot ring. Luke changes something with this rings, only he knows what, but I'm pretty sure that description is plain wrong.
What is also sure is that rings as ring works, damage increase is very easy to spot.
I wanted to test it in best way I could, so I've just reset skills of archer and made 2 tests.
First was this passive I need to take for longshot. First blood and it's 15% damage bonus.

 

 Yeah it takes a long time to test which passives are which. . . which is why I'm hesistant to do so or claim which is which necessarily. Flanking passive for archer is easy to spot.

 

Also being part of ability multiplier may be an additive vs multiplicative of the ability multiplier. There's quite a bit of work here that I just don't want to do.

 

I do suspect the ring is part of the ability multiplier, and a seperate bonus / back end buff on the formula that changes things around not to the stated numbers.

[Texasmotiv]

Might be easier for someone with the ability to look at the code to do so. If it can somehow be extracted from the scripts rather than someone wasting playtesting time on it.

 

Not sure if anyone on PC has the ability to crack open the code and look.

 

OR there are some Bioware developers that tend to lurk around here...

[Proto]

Welcome back Texasmotiv. You were missed.