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[In Exile]

The Relays were also designed by the Reapers to guide the galaxy down their desired technological pathways and ensure stagnation so their victory is all the easier.

Not only does Shepard break the cycle forever he rejects the galaxy the Reapers chose for everyone and ensures that the future, dark or bright, will be a result of self-determination.

Also congrats on your 30,000 post lol.

To me the Relays being destroyed was the natural culmination of the philosophy espoused in destroying the collector base, i.e., rejecting the technology created by the reapers because of what they are and what they represent.

An ending were the "cost" was an interregnum dark age because of a rejection of the reapers wholesale was - to me - a totally acceptable "pure" paragon option with the moral cost being the chaos caused by that rejection of technology. Of course this is what "destroy" tried to be but missed the whole point of the theory and what it means to execute it thematically.

[In Exile]

https://www.youtube....h?v=FUFvb_FfdjY

Did you think they were capable of being beaten? The whole tone of Mass Effect 3 was that they were losing and they were desperate. There was some hope there but... Bioware built the reapers as too much of a dominating threat. If the blight was made up of a hundred's of thousand's of Archdemons would you believe they could be beaten?

A lot of what happened in Mass Effect 3 should have happened in Mass Effect 2 and ME3 could have been purely about ending the reaper threat. And then you would have got the answer you wanted. However, the reason why ME3 is a work of art is because of ME2's pointlessness.

Every single moment in ME before the ending was us kicking and even fisting the reapers right up the rear-end. On Rannoch Shepard is straight up dodging reaper lasers and nuking one of them from orbit while throwing one-liners.

Absolutely no part of ME prior to the ending suggested beating the reapers was impossible. Even ME3s Macguffin (the Crucible) was built up as a reaper killer.

ME3s ending then tried to deconstruct all of this - starting with the realistic consequence of a reaper throwing a laser in your face (i.e., you getting nuked) - but it makes no sense in the context of the game. It's pure whiplash.

[AlanC9]

Every single moment in ME before the ending was us kicking and even fisting the reapers right up the rear-end. On Rannoch Shepard is straight up dodging reaper lasers and nuking one of them from orbit while throwing one-liners.
Absolutely no part of ME prior to the ending suggested beating the reapers was impossible. Even ME3s Macguffin (the Crucible) was built up as a reaper killer.

I dunno how much killing a destroyer-class Reaper with the whole quarian fleet as backup really proves.

[Indigenous]

Did the catalyst say it was bored? Did it let you win? Once the crucible was attached, the catalyst knew its solution wouldn't work. The crucible gave it new solutions which it passed to Shepard who can choose what ending he/she wants.

 

The catalyst created the reapers, and after an untold amount of years exterminating cycles, the catalyst basically betrayed the reapers. The reapers were way too dominant of a force in that brief war for us to turn around and say they should have been more dominant, so that if the catalyst decided to fuk them over they would have been prepared. The war was all but won for the reapers.

 

The reapers may be stupid but they are less stupid than all the other races which means that weakness can't be exploited. Hence, the reapers have no weakness.

 

Absolutely no part of ME prior to the ending suggested beating the reapers was impossible.

Expand on this please. I disagree but I want to know if you thought this through.

 

[Iakus]

To me the Relays being destroyed was the natural culmination of the philosophy espoused in destroying the collector base, i.e., rejecting the technology created by the reapers because of what they are and what they represent.

An ending were the "cost" was an interregnum dark age because of a rejection of the reapers wholesale was - to me - a totally acceptable "pure" paragon option with the moral cost being the chaos caused by that rejection of technology. Of course this is what "destroy" tried to be but missed the whole point of the theory and what it means to execute it thematically.

Abso-freaking-lutely.

 

People who claim all I want is a rainbows and unicorns ending keep forgetting this.

[themikefest]

The catalyst created the reapers, and after an untold amount of years exterminating cycles, the catalyst basically betrayed the reapers. The reapers were way too dominant of a force in that brief war for us to turn around and say they should have been more dominant, so that if the catalyst decided to fuk them over they would have been prepared. The war was all but won for the reapers.

You still haven't explained how you believe the catalyst was bored?
 

The reapers may be stupid but they are less stupid than all the other races which means that weakness can't be exploited. Hence, the reapers have no weakness.

The list that I gave is their weakness. All they had to do is one of the things I mentioned. That's all. Since they didn't, its a sign of weakness on their part. So they basically stopped themselves.

Our species are just as stupid, but that is more with the leadership 

[Iakus]

:sigh: Patch out what weaknesses? Before ME3's ending more reapers died than in the other two games combined.

Soverign did mention that each reaper was like a nation and their numbers would blot out the skies.

Even if he didn't, the reapers have been destroying civilisations for an uncountable number of years (cycles).

The Protheans were a united empire and failed to beat the reapers.

They had weakness sure but less weaknesses than their enemies.

Wait are you suggesting they had a fatal flaw that would allow you to destroy the most powerful race of beings in existence?

A thermal exhaust port perhaps?

 

:sigh: Yes we didn't know how to beat the Archdemon but Thedas did as it wasn't their first blight. It was already established.

Doesn't that make Morrigan a ridiculous plot device to allow the warden to have a happy ending?

And they figured out that if you drank archdemon blood you could kill an archdemon? So... convenient.

But you could become King/Queen so I guess its all cool.

Killing a husk they were controlling used to stun a Reaper, dropping their barriers and leaving htem vulnerable.  

 

In addition, kinetic barriers don't work on everything.  directed energy weapons, nukes, toxins should bypass the Reaper barriers completely.  Yet no research at all went into developing weapons like this.

 

FInally, the Reapers have an absolutely stupidly high number of ships.  Frankly it's ridiculous the galaxy put up any kind of a fight at all in ME3.

[KaiserShep]

I'll bet a space sovereign that there's going to be a "iakus_ending" in the game files. 

[In Exile]

I dunno how much killing a destroyer-class Reaper with the whole quarian fleet as backup really proves.

It's the way it's done. It's not gritty war drama at great human cost. It's a Crowning Moment of Awesome ™ where Shepard rides triumphantly on the back of a gunship swapping one-liners with the Normandy Crew while Cthulu gets repeatedly punched.

The PG-13 heroic B movie plots always have unliely odds. Much like how ME1 had Sovereign lose to comically overwhelming forces. But ME1 isn't a gritty war drama that portrays the hopeless of war against a technologically superior foe.

[Iakus]

I'll bet a space sovereign that there's going to be a "iakus_ending" in the game files. 

If there is, you're welcome 

[In Exile]

Expand on this please. I disagree but I want to know if you thought this through.

The first - and central - point is the genre of the game. The seriousness with which we take something like the Eldrich-level threat of the enemy turns on the genre. The contrast is between WWII as seen through Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan (the D-Day scene especially) and Captain America: the First Avenger.

Then we turn to how the "reaping" was portrayed. The sneak attack on the Citadel was central. The reapers entire plan revolves around not fighting massed armies but rather genociding isolated star systems. The mere existence of this plan - combined with the fact that the reaping is tied to a level of technological development and that development is, in theory, entirely controlled by the type of technology left behind by the reapers - suggests that the massed armies of the galaxy are a real (if not substantial) threat to the reapers. Then we have the added fact that the current cycle is off schedule. The evidence in ME1 is that the reaping should have occured at or before the time of the rachni wars. Meaning before the Turians were properly part of the galaxy. That means that this cycle has more races - more cultures - to throw at the reapers than perhaps ever before. Then we have the actual slaying of a reaper and the revelation that they have "OFF" buttons (in the form of slaying their avatars). From ME1 it looks like every single part of the reaper strategy (isolation of the species and the Citadel sneak atrack) was crushed. Then we has what humanity represented: technological innovation that did not perfectly map on to the reaper plot of technological development (we build space u-boats and space aircraft carriers).

On ME1 alone we had every reason to think that the reapers could be beaten. Especially since their numbers were totally unkown besides Sovereign's comically nonsensical line about their numbers blotting out the sky. For all we knew there were a grand total of 5 ships left.

ME2 doesn't advance the reaper plot beyond suggesting that allies from ME1 are paying off (see the rachni), that the Citadel races apparently repurposed reaper guns, and that a Big MFing Gun ™ can absolutely kill a reaper. On the negative side is the big fleep of reapers that we see.

There's plenty of room for further handwaves to make this cycle special - like the reapers travelling a ways from dark space weakened them.

All of this is to say that by ME3 the invincible reapers were anything but that as they were portrayed. And of course ME3 starts off by having the reaper sneak attack succeed *anyway* and portrays the current cycle as being a joke compared to the last one (planets and civilisations fall in weeks). It's basically a galaxy wide nerf.

This is the Coles notes version.

[Indigenous]

The first - and central - point is the genre of the game. The seriousness with which we take something like the Eldrich-level threat of the enemy turns on the genre. The contrast is between WWII as seen through Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan (the D-Day scene especially) and Captain America: the First Avenger.

Then we turn to how the "reaping" was portrayed. The sneak attack on the Citadel was central. The reapers entire plan revolves around not fighting massed armies but rather genociding isolated star systems. The mere existence of this plan - combined with the fact that the reaping is tied to a level of technological development and that development is, in theory, entirely controlled by the type of technology left behind by the reapers - suggests that the massed armies of the galaxy are a real (if not substantial) threat to the reapers. Then we have the added fact that the current cycle is off schedule. The evidence in ME1 is that the reaping should have occured at or before the time of the rachni wars. Meaning before the Turians were properly part of the galaxy. That means that this cycle has more races - more cultures - to throw at the reapers than perhaps ever before. Then we have the actual slaying of a reaper and the revelation that they have "OFF" buttons (in the form of slaying their avatars). From ME1 it looks like every single part of the reaper strategy (isolation of the species and the Citadel sneak atrack) was crushed. Then we has what humanity represented: technological innovation that did not perfectly map on to the reaper plot of technological development (we build space u-boats and space aircraft carriers).

On ME1 alone we had every reason to think that the reapers could be beaten. Especially since their numbers were totally unkown besides Sovereign's comically nonsensical line about their numbers blotting out the sky. For all we knew there were a grand total of 5 ships left.

ME2 doesn't advance the reaper plot beyond suggesting that allies from ME1 are paying off (see the rachni), that the Citadel races apparently repurposed reaper guns, and that a Big MFing Gun ™ can absolutely kill a reaper. On the negative side is the big fleep of reapers that we see.

There's plenty of room for further handwaves to make this cycle special - like the reapers travelling a ways from dark space weakened them.

All of this is to say that by ME3 the invincible reapers were anything but that as they were portrayed. And of course ME3 starts off by having the reaper sneak attack succeed *anyway* and portrays the current cycle as being a joke compared to the last one (planets and civilisations fall in weeks). It's basically a galaxy wide nerf.

This is the Coles notes version.

You give too much weight to your assumptions and when you pull up some actual evidence from the game you dismiss it as potentially untrue. Your point that the reapers were launching sneak attacks might be true, but on the flip side why would they announce themselves before they attack? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

Killing a husk they were controlling used to stun a Reaper, dropping their barriers and leaving htem vulnerable.  

 

In addition, kinetic barriers don't work on everything.  directed energy weapons, nukes, toxins should bypass the Reaper barriers completely.  Yet no research at all went into developing weapons like this.

 

FInally, the Reapers have an absolutely stupidly high number of ships.  Frankly it's ridiculous the galaxy put up any kind of a fight at all in ME3.

A reaper or just one reaper? Remember each reaper is a nation.

 

No its not ridiculously that the galaxy put up a fight. It was a beautiful surprise when the reapers hit earth but you would expect that Shepard should be able to have a party on the Citadel before he did something about it.

 

 

You still haven't explained how you believe the catalyst was bored?
 

The list that I gave is their weakness. All they had to do is one of the things I mentioned. That's all. Since they didn't, its a sign of weakness on their part. So they basically stopped themselves.

Our species are just as stupid, but that is more with the leadership 

The Catalyst is/was the most advanced A.I. in the Mass Effect universe. When the catalyst decided to let Shepard choose what happened next I doubt it was because the catalyst is/was colourblind.

 

Weakness? They were winning. They only lost because the Catalyst let them lose. If the catalyst - their creator - turned its back on them... Think of it this way. The Crucible is only a power amplifier right? It didn't give you the choice to control reapers. No the Catalyst did which must mean the Catalyst had some control over the reapers.

 

Really just the leadership of the council races were less intelligent than a race of technologically superior super machines?

[AlanC9]

In addition, kinetic barriers don't work on everything.  directed energy weapons, nukes, toxins should bypass the Reaper barriers completely.  Yet no research at all went into developing weapons like this.
 

Of course, that would just lead to a lot of pointless conversations about how Weapon X has been tried on the Reapers and isn't working..

[AlanC9]

Then we have the added fact that the current cycle is off schedule. The evidence in ME1 is that the reaping should have occured at or before the time of the rachni wars. Meaning before the Turians were properly part of the galaxy. That means that this cycle has more races - more cultures - to throw at the reapers than perhaps ever before. Then we have the actual slaying of a reaper and the revelation that they have "OFF" buttons (in the form of slaying their avatars).

This raises other questions. As far as we know the attack on the protheans happened on schedule while the attack on the current cycle was delayed by centuries. And yet the current cycle is still behind prothean technology., somehow. Maybe everybody but humans are kinda dumb?

I'm not sure the avatar thing is a significant problem for the Reapers unless they're quite dumb too.

[Dantriges]

Yeah the Catalyst had total control over the reapers. Control Shep can make them stop in a few minutes or even less. Funny thing is, this superbright intelligence holding their leashes is sitting right there in the citadel. Would be a complete game over for team reaper if someone found out. Seems that starkid actually has no defenses against old fashioned hardware access  using a hammer and plasmatorches for the walls. And a bunch of starving prothean scientists and evolution denied him superadmin access until reapertech customer service came for a visit . No idea why but somehow it happened.

 

The crucible also changed some variables. No idea what exactly but uh well starkid raised some nice walkways to control and destroy. If you go there with low EMS only destroy is open. Man, he must be really bored and fed up with his existence.

 

Or the writers watched the (less) crappy scene with the architect a bit too much and made a worse copy.

[themikefest]

The Catalyst is/was the most advanced A.I. in the Mass Effect universe. When the catalyst decided to let Shepard choose what happened next I doubt it was because the catalyst is/was colourblind.

What does that have to do with it being bored? Still haven't answer why you believe the thing is bored?
 

Weakness? They were winning. They only lost because the Catalyst let them lose.If the catalyst - their creator - turned its back on them... Think of it this way. The Crucible is only a power amplifier right? It didn't give you the choice to control reapers. No the Catalyst did which must mean the Catalyst had some control over the reapers.

The catalyst has control over the reapers. It never said some control. It said "I control them". Once the crucible attached to the citadel, it changed the varibles and gave it new solutions. It can't choose them, but Shepard can
 

Really just the leadership of the council races were less intelligent than a race of technologically superior super machines?

For a technologically superior super machine, they sure are stupid to let the organics do what they did in this cycle when all they had to do is one of those things I mentioned in the list in my post, right?

[Shepard-Tali]

I haven't really thought about the ending since I don't know anything about the game. I just hope it's a trilogy game, at least that way I know that there will be a new Mass Effect game coming in the next couple of years. 

[Dantriges]

I wonder if the reapers could take the nova from an exploding relay. Don´t think. Would be a funny thing to park a few asteroids in this nebula or really fast ships built for it and slam them right into every relay around the citadel when the reapers want to spring their trap. They can´t kill every detonator ship if you time it right.

 

"We are here to bring you salvation through destruction."

"Yeah you do."

WHAM.

[Indigenous]

What does that have to do with it being bored? Still haven't answer why you believe the thing is bored?
 

The catalyst has control over the reapers. It never said some control. It said "I control them". Once the crucible attached to the citadel, it changed the varibles and gave it new solutions. It can't choose them, but Shepard can
 

For a technologically superior super machine, they sure are stupid to let the organics do what they did in this cycle when all they had to do is one of those things I mentioned in the list in my post, right?

That is why I believe he was bored. You may not agree with my rational but that is why I think he was bored. He had so many resources at his disposal and it didn't hurt that he was seemingly smarter that everything else.

 

You agree with me here though. He had the power to destroy or stop the reapers before Shepard showed up. The only thing he couldn't do was make bio-techno hybrids of all life. Unless that is the canon ending the catalyst got bored.

 

Lets stop talking about the weakness of the Reapers because I am going to keep saying they were winning and you are going to keep saying they could have been winning more.

[AlanC9]

I wonder if the reapers could take the nova from an exploding relay. Don´t think. Would be a funny thing to park a few asteroids in this nebula or really fast ships built for it and slam them right into every relay around the citadel when the reapers want to spring their trap. They can´t kill every detonator ship if you time it right.
 

That works maybe once. Reapers don't need to hang out near the local relay, and they don't really need to use the secondaries.

[themikefest]

You agree with me here though.

Agree with what? The thing always had control over the reapers if that's what your referring to
 

He had the power to destroy or stop the reapers before Shepard showed up.

No it didn't. It was stuck within its programming. Once the crucible was attached to the citadel, its programming was changed and gave it new solutions
 

The only thing he couldn't do was make bio-techno hybrids of all life. Unless that is the canon ending the catalyst got bored.

The thing says it can't make them happen

[Indigenous]

Lets just sum up this back and forth between us.

 

You called the reapers stupid and you made various points which all equaled a 'reapers win' if the reapers had done this. I basically claimed your argument was redundant as the reapers were winning and the only reason they lost was because the guy that created them, and gave them the idea to exterminate bio lifeforms and was apparently in full control of them decided to abandon them.

 

If neither one of us can see the others point we should just agree I was right and move on.

[Killdren88]

A tragic ending that is beneficial and a happy ending that has severe negative consequences is what I want to see.

Indeed. If they want their pathetic romance so much the galaxy must pay for it

[themikefest]

If neither one of us can see the others point we should just agree I was right and move on.

We? No, You can agree with yourself, but I won't.

[Iakus]

Of course, that would just lead to a lot of pointless conversations about how Weapon X has been tried on the Reapers and isn't working..

Yeah, just like trying to contact the Council before agreeing to work for TIM would be a pointless conversation. 

 

It's not pointless if it fills a plot hole.