The father of Emperor Kordillius Drakon I was a non-mage noble from Tevinter.
There is nothing stopping BioWare from wiriting a non-mage noble in Tevinter.
But he was a lesser noble, just like how the mage Terevelyan is. It will be reverse in Tevinter.
Mage Trevelyan isn't a noble, a mage is stripped of their titles.But he was a lesser noble, just like how the mage Terevelyan is. It will be reverse in Tevinter.
Its a good theory to be honest. It can also relate to the fact that Templars always had it easy because most mages just want to live their lives and cared little for what happens. Now all of them were united and the Templar order was beyond unprepared for that scale of uprising.
Yeah, the Right of Annulment always struck me as a difficult undertaking, let alone if you can't count on calling on Templar support from elsewhere, since they're too busy dealing with their own Circle's going to the Void to lend any reinforcements.
Nor could they turn to the Chantry to attempt to convince pious nobles to lend soldiers to temporarily boolster the ranks, due to Lambert burning a lot of that bridge when he broke the Accords and had the Templars go it alone.
Mage Trevelyan isn't a noble, a mage is stripped of their titles.
We don't know if it happens with non-mages in Tevinter, all we know is that the child will not be able to inherit the magister title.
Lambert only break the Accord after all Circles had already been annuled or the mages have fled.Yeah, the Right of Annulment always struck me as a difficult undertaking, let alone if you can't count on calling on Templar support from elsewhere, since they're too busy dealing with their own Circle's going to the Void to lend any reinforcements.
Nor could they turn to the Chantry to attempt to convince pious nobles to lend soldiers to temporarily boolster the ranks, due to Lambert burning a lot of that bridge when he broke the Accords and had the Templars go it alone.
Lambert only break the Accord after all Circles had already been annuled or the mages have fled.
I was always under the assumption the mages probably fled, since there's no evidence suggesting that any were annulled (at least officially) save for Dairsmuid, although it's unclear whether that was called before or after the war had begun. I suppose that the breaking of the Accords and the vote for independence meant a de facto state of annulment was considered in effect, but wouldn't it have been said?
Didn't the Annulment at Dairsmuid take place before the breaking of the Nevarran Accord, since it's implied it was the only time it was called for between the Kirkwall rebellion and the outbreak of the Mage-Templar war?
I would say it happened, effectively, after the Seekers and Templars went rogue, but before the Accords were officially nullified.
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Considering Gaider was the one who didn't want a golden third way like the geth/quarian peace and the one who wanted more Templar support, I'd say there will be more pro-Mage elements in he future.
That's assuming the Mage issue is addressed in later games considering the devs said this game is the last one where the Mage/Templar issue will have any relevance
I'm not talking about mages and templars. Or any particular storyarc like that.
I'm talking about atmosphere and themes. For example, people to this day still love talking about Aeducan and Cousland origins quite a bit..or being a City Elf and reenacting Kill Bill. They love the mundane and political games in this world. As far as fans go, they're not all facscinated with magic as much as the writers seem to be. They don't necessarily care for a magical wonderland with Spirit and Mortal coexistence. If that happened, all of these other things would die off. It wouldn't be a place to play out medieval fantasies anymore... it'd be something unique (but not necessarily for the better).
I don't blame him for not wanting a third way on that particular issue though.
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Yeah, Leliana's struggle when it comes to her faith is more about how to reconcile her belief that the Maker is benevolent and loves all his creations, with how the Chant unintentionally portrays him as more as an neglectful, indifferent god who's prone to rage-quitting his creations for minor or trivial infractions, as well as how the Chantry likes to portray him as clearly favouring humans over all other races in Thedas.
Cassandra doesn't really have that struggle when it comes to her faith. She certainly questions the Maker at times, but she seems to be more willing to reconcile this with the belief that the Maker has an ineffable plan for everyone and there's a method to the madness, or that such struggles are meant as tests that one must overcome.
As for the human only issue, I think this game in particular is misleading about it. I like that Cass and Leliana want to open the Chantry to more people, but that was never the Chantry's fault in the first place. Now all of the sudden because Varric isn't religous, it's everyone else's fault? Dwarves never gave a **** about the Chantry. It's not the Chantry's fault. The Qunari don't give a ****. And it's not like there's a bunch of Tal Vashoth running around knocking on Chantry doors, begging for guidance.
The elf issue is more complicated. A lot of bitterness on both sides... the Chantry is only at fault for carrying on their grudge for so long.
This game makes it out like we're correcting some grave injustice against all of the races. It seems like it's written for noobs. If we play the other games, we know better.
edit: Damnit, I should have just used the duplicate space above this post... Oh well.
Now all of the sudden because Varric isn't religous, it's everyone else's fault?
I think the point was that, even though Varric is a believer of the faith, the institution of the Chantry isn't an inclusive environment for people like him. And I'm not even positive that is referring to his race in particular, as Cassandra doesn't really imply that. I suppose we can't really make any statements in confidence regarding the relationship between the Chantry and Dwarves of the faith without learning more about the place of topside (non-Carta) Dwarves in society.
But yeah, the elf thing is bad.
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I think the point was that, even though Varric is a believer of the faith, the institution of the Chantry isn't an inclusive environment for people like him. And I'm not even positive that is referring to his race in particular, as Cassandra doesn't really imply that. I suppose we can't really make any statements in confidence regarding the relationship between the Chantry and Dwarves of the faith without learning more about the place of topside (non-Carta) Dwarves in society.
But yeah, the elf thing is bad.
I don't think there's even enough surface dwarves to worry about it. I think there's one codex that says that a lot of them are the dusters that ran off after you kicked Jarvia's ass. They had nowhere else to go after DAO. But I don't see why the Chantry would stop them. It's up to them if they want to change.
We know there's one surface dwarf who did fine (Burkel, from Redcliffe). And he would have remained fine on the surface - in the Chantry -- if he didn't go to Orzammar and get slaughtered on their streets. lol. He had more to worry about from other dwarves, than the Chantry.
And apparently the Chantry cared enough about him that they considered an Exalted March.
In DAI, I think Bioware is just appealing to noobs and bleeding hearts. "Look, they shut out other races! In addition to locking up mages. It's all their fault."
I don't think there's even enough surface dwarves to worry about it. I think there's one codex that says that a lot of them are the dusters that ran off after you kicked Jarvia's ass. They had nowhere else to go after DAO. But I don't see why the Chantry would stop them. It's up to them if they want to stop being douchebags.
I admit I'm not sure where most of the surface Dwarves are coming from. I was thinking their numbers were on the rise with some 2nd generation topsider families, but again... not a lot of information on stuff like this because we need BIG BAD and BIG HERO stuff.
We know there's one surface dwarf who did fine (Burkel, from Redcliffe). And he would have remained fine on the surface - in the Chantry -- if he didn't go to Orzammar and get slaughtered on their streets. lol.
And apparently the Chantry cared enough about him that they considered an Exalted March.
I do remember Burkel, but with his case I can't ignore the obvious ulterior motive behind planting a Chantry in Orzammar. Threats of an Exalted March would only compound upon that, but that entire premise has already been nullified in the canon.
In DAI, I think Bioware is just appealing to noobs and bleeding hearts. "Look, they shut out other races! In addition to locking up mages. It's all their fault."
DAI indicated that most of the powerful people within the Chantry aren't really altruistic or even terribly competent, which is generally a concept running all the way from Origins. It's (was) stuffy, rigid, whitebread.
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DAI indicated that most of the powerful people within the Chantry aren't really altruistic or even terribly competent, which is generally a concept running all the way from Origins. It's (was) stuffy, rigid, whitebread.
I know, but that kind of black and white stuff annoys me. Especially when they entertained a more complicated outlook before (like Burkel, as I mentioned. Even if it was nullified, it shows that this was at least on the writers' minds at one point). And DA2 only expressed this cynical outlook with one character: Anders. A character like Merrill didn't give a **** about the Chantry because it was her choice. Not because she was suppressed. Sebastian was friendly as possible with her and Fenris (only Fenris was receptive).
I know, but that kind of black and white stuff annoys me. Especially when they entertained a more complicated outlook before (like Burkel, as I mentioned. Even if it was nullified, it shows that this was at least on the writers' minds at one point). And DA2 only expressed this cynical outlook with one character: Anders. A character like Merrill didn't give a **** about the Chantry because it was her choice. Not because she was suppressed. Sebastian was friendly as possible with her and Fenris (only Fenris was receptive).
No, the whole situation in Kirkwall itself made it clear that the management didn't know what the **** they were doing. Elthina herself liked to preach a lot, only for her passivity to end up harming everyone, mage and non-mage.
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No, the whole situation in Kirkwall itself made it clear that the management didn't know what the **** they were doing. Elthina herself liked to preach a lot, only for her passivity to end up harming everyone, mage and non-mage.
That's a bunch of bullshit. As much as I'm willing to entertain free mages, killing passive old ladies isn't justified. That's crazy. Literally.
That's a bunch of bullshit. As much as I'm willing to entertain free mages, killing passive old ladies isn't justified. That's crazy. Literally.
Did I say it was justified?
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Did I say it was justified?
You didn't. My bad. It's just that I've had dozens of conversations on the topic before before.. Usually once Elthina gets the blame, I throw my hands up in the air. It's always followed by justifying Anders.
I'm just here to say he's crazy. Or sick/possessed. What have you. I think he blew it up mostly because Justice is a spirit, and used to "instant results". This is the only way he knew how to express himself in the material world. lol.
You didn't. My bad. It's just I've had dozens of conversations on the topic before before.. Usually once Elthina gets the blame, I throw my hands up in the air. It's always followed by justifying Anders.
I'm just here to say he's crazy. Or sick/possessed. What have you.
Elthina and the institution at large at stressed the significance of the situation at hand, and yet thought the problem would just go away if they ignored it. They are to blame for letting the state of the Gallows and the city devolve to what it was by Act 3.
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Elthina and the institution at large at stressed the significance of the situation at hand, and yet thought the problem would just go away if they ignored it. They are to blame for letting the state of the Gallows and the city devolve to what it was by Act 3.
I don't think she wanted to ignore it. Unlike "Spirits", she understands that there is a process to doing things. You take steps. She just didn't know all the steps -- nor was it completely up to her anyways.
When you build something, you take steps.. all life is a process. But Justice/Vengeance doesn't have a clue on how to live like that. He's even more used to "results" than mages. Recall the Valor spirit in the Magi origin... how he makes all of his weapons come into being through his Will. These spirits don't know any other way to live. That's why it's messed up to have them in this world. They either can't cope or they do stupid sh*t like Anders did.
I don't think there's even enough surface dwarves to worry about it. I think there's one codex that says that a lot of them are the dusters that ran off after you kicked Jarvia's ass. They had nowhere else to go after DAO. But I don't see why the Chantry would stop them. It's up to them if they want to change.
While the surface dwarves still have the same problems with low birth-rates as their underground kin, it's mentioned a couple times that those who live on the surface are thriving, with more ascendants joining their ranks as the years go on.
They are still the race with the lowest population in Thedas, but I'd imagine the surface dwarves probably have a collective population spread across Thedas that likely rivals or surpasses that of Orzammar, which is that of a small city.
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While the surface dwarves still have the same problems with low birth-rates as their underground kin, it's mentioned a couple times that those who live on the surface are thriving, with more ascendants joining their ranks as the years go on.
They are still the race with the lowest population in Thedas, I'd imagine the surface dwarves probably have a collective population spread across Thedas that likely rivals or surpasses that of Orzammar, which has same population as a small city.
Fair enough.
Storywise, that's a shame though. The only thing worth bringing a new race into a setting is to present their quirks and unique culture. If the traditional dwarves die off and everything just becomes surface dwarves and some Chantry believers, what's the ****** point of even having dwarves in the first place. I could have had criminals and Chantry believers and hairy chests with humans. I don't want a bunch of short humans. I want dwarves.
I don't think she wanted to ignore it. Unlike "Spirits", she understands that there is a process to doing things. You take steps. She just didn't know all the steps -- nor was it completely up to her anyways.
When you build something, you take steps.. all life is like this. But Justice/Vengeance doesn't have a clue on how to live like that. He's even more used to "results" than mages. Recall the Valor spirit in the Magi origin... how he makes all of his weapons come into being through his Will. These spirits don't know any other way to live. That's why it's messed up to have them in this world. They either can't cope or they do stupid sh*t like Anders did.
Stop talking about Anders and spirits, I don't give a single shite about what they think, and what they think isn't even relevant to what I'm talking about. Seriously, stop linking this discussion to them.
The point is that the operation of the Gallows was a complete disgrace, with neither the First Enchanter or the Knight Commander being interested in performing their duties. After nearly a decade of this building up (and being acknowledged as a widely-known situation), the Chantry has no excuse.
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