6205 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Nooooope.

You can spew your irrational Seeker hatred all you like but it wasn't "means to a end" mentality or ideology that led to that.

It was a demon and a nutjob responsible for that charming turn of events.

 

Said nutjob had his mind initially blown into nutjob territory when their secrets were revealed. Obviously his response was a massive outlier, but it still calls into question the nature of their operation. It was this ferociously engendered secrecy that allowed his betrayal to be as successful as it was, leading to the total destruction of the Seekers as an organized and present entity. Was there even a measure in place in the event of this worst-case-scenario (of course, if the Lord Seeker is the only one ever aware of what's in the book, how could there be)? Could they just have tried... not lying all the time about everything? 

 

Forget that. Regardless of how the "means to an end" mentality might have played into their demise or near-demise, its effect on their operation is something Cassandra takes extreme issue with. Once the full extent of their practices are revealed, it is not something she wants to be part of any longer (as they were). By this same extent, she would not want to have any dealings with Cerberus.

[Master Warder Z_]

By this same extent, she would not want to have any dealings with Cerberus.

So you say; Yet by that same standard she was a Seeker for what? Close to 30 years? How much do you think she had to stomach, had to internalize and cope with? You say bad **** would turn her from the organization? I say it would be something she'd accept with the uniform.

Because as Cassandra herself said to the Herald. "Sometimes what is right is not what is just." She doesn't give two flips about how her actions are interpreted as long as she personally believes them to be right.

Its how she can casually discuss executing someone without trial or evidence but belief in their guilt.

Its that resolute nature that believes me to think she'd fit in fine with Cerberus.

[The Baconer]

So you say; Yet by that same standard she was a Seeker for what? Close to 30 years? How much do you think she had to stomach, had to internalize and cope with? You say bad **** would turn her from the organization? I say it would be something she'd accept with the uniform.

 

How much did she cope with, or do with her own bare hands? Do you know?

 

Do you know if was anything close to letting animals slaughter people just to study what happens? Running weapons to bandits and slavers? Wiping out a section of the Carta, and then taking up the same Lyrium smuggling runs they used to frequent (ironically, I remember you posting about how Cassandra should take more immediate offense to Dwarven Inquisitors because of their criminal history)? Running a clandestine operation of carving up people of all races and experimenting upon their flesh? You seem to be using a complete unknown in order to rationalize her potentially working for Cerberus, even when all of her spoken lines and recorded actions strongly imply the opposite.

 

 

Because as Cassandra herself said to the Herald. "Sometimes what is right is not what is just." She doesn't give two flips about how her actions are interpreted as long as she personally believes them to be right.

Its how she can casually discuss executing someone without trial or evidence but belief in their guilt.

Its that resolute nature that believes me to think she'd fit in fine with Cerberus.

 

What does her resolute nature amount to if she doesn't find Cerberus' cause in the right? They could hardly be more opposed to her on a moral spectrum.

[Master Warder Z_]

How much did she cope with, or do with her own bare hands? Do you know

Nope; unfortunately a lot of her past remains undocumented even in DAI, which is a pity, surely she has stories.

Crud even rank and file Templars have stories.

But my point is that, even in her documented service record she has a lot of killing and death in there, I doubt that stopped.

She's a warrior after.

Point of fact; you're assuming a lot, about her morality, and her character. Her own actions and approval paint a picture that strong, decisive, and somewhat questionable morality guide her, the fact of the matter is.

You don't know, if given between joining Cerberus and doing nothing to help her species survive in the turmoil of galactic politics, protected only by a indecisive alliance and bickering military what would she do?

I say she'd square away her conscience and do what she did in DA; what she had to do.

Do I think she would run Pragia? No, but that isn't what Cerberus is, it isn't the assassination, the arms running, its securing a place for humans to exist in a galaxy that has no love for them, so boyo.

I think we are done here.

[The Baconer]

Nope; unfortunately a lot of her past remains undocumented even in DAI, which is a pity, surely she has stories.

Crud even rank and file Templars have stories.

But my point is that, even in her documented service record she has a lot of killing and death in there, I doubt that stopped.

She's a warrior after.

Point of fact; you're assuming a lot, about her morality, and her character. Her own actions and approval paint a picture that strong, decisive, and somewhat questionable morality guide her, the fact of the matter is. [...]

 

I'm only using what she tells us.

 

 

You don't know, if given between joining Cerberus and doing nothing to help her species survive in the turmoil of galactic politics, protected only by a indecisive alliance and bickering military what would she do?

 

False dichotomy.

 

 

Do I think she would run Pragia? No, but that isn't what Cerberus is, it isn't the assassination, the arms running, its securing a place for humans to exist in a galaxy that has no love for them, so boyo.

 

A person can claim "my shindig is all about X" all they want, but whether or not they are is proven in application. Corypheus will claim that his goal is to give the people of Thedas a real god, and restore correct order to the world. The Magisters claim that the best way for mages to serve the faithful is to rule them. The Qunari claim to bring true peace and fulfillment. Cerberus espousing their goal of human "survivalism" is no different.

 

Now, lets hope that next time you retire from an argument you'll endeavor to do it with more class. Sir.

[Master Warder Z_]

Now, lets hope that next time you retire from an argument you'll endeavor to do it with more class. Sir.

With you?

Never Bacon

Especially not when you use words like "retire" and "dichotomy"

Given I understood your meaning but it just comes off as snobbish.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can use properly formatted english vernacular too but...I try not come off as a professor of one of those less then stellar universities...in 1894

[Siha]

Ah damnit, it was such an interesting debate and you just end it?

 

False dichotomy.

 

[...]

 

Now, lets hope that next time you retire from an argument you'll endeavor to do it with more class. Sir.

 

And you should explain your arguments. Simply saying "You're wrong" without any evidence isn't high class either.

So, what alternatives do you see for her regarding the choice Warder pointed out?

[Caddius]

Ah damnit, it was such an interesting debate and you just end it?

 

 

And you should explain your arguments. Simply saying "You're wrong" without any evidence isn't high class either.

So, what alternatives do you see for her regarding the choice Warder pointed out?

Become Paragon Shepard's dragon-slaying equivalent? I simply don't see her admiring Cerberus. She does seem pragmatic enough to me to use their resources. Cerberus has a history of reckless and unethical scientific experimentation and assassination in the name of human supremacy/survival. While I find the Illusive Man a fascinating character, the only circumstances I can see Cassandra working with Cerberus are similar ones that were handed to Shepard. When the Chantry was fumbling in similar fashion to the Council, Cassandra quite simply started her own organization to take up the cause. While she may utilize the resources of Cerberus in desperate circumstances, she wouldn't join her cause to theirs. Cassandra seems to fight for order, truth, a more just society. Cerberus fights for strength and doesn't care if other species are treated justly. *shrug* Just my opinion, bearing in mind I haven't delved as far into Cassandra's characterization as most on this forum yet.

[Master Warder Z_]

Kittens...

[AWTEW]

You were asked to post that trash non con elsewhere

 

I know, but it was getting so edgy, with all the debating I needed to break it up..

Could you put the picture under spoiler, AWTEW, please?

 

SOwwy

 

[Siha]

Become Paragon Shepard's dragon-slaying equivalent? I simply don't see her admiring Cerberus. She does seem pragmatic enough to me to use their resources. Cerberus has a history of reckless and unethical scientific experimentation and assassination in the name of human supremacy/survival. While I find the Illusive Man a fascinating character, the only circumstances I can see Cassandra working with Cerberus are similar ones that were handed to Shepard. When the Chantry was fumbling in similar fashion to the Council, Cassandra quite simply started her own organization to take up the cause. While she may utilize the resources of Cerberus in desperate circumstances, she wouldn't join her cause to theirs. Cassandra seems to fight for order, truth, a more just society. Cerberus fights for strength and doesn't care if other species are treated justly. *shrug* Just my opinion, bearing in mind I haven't delved as far into Cassandra's characterization as most on this forum yet.

 

Oh, is Baconer a second pseudonym of yours?

I am not so sure. I do see Warder's point. And while Cass is a moral entity, it's true that "morality" is not a clearly defined concept. She really mostly cares if she can see her decisions as justified. In ME2 she could not just found an own organization by herself, she lacks all means, resources, and even support by her former affiliations. Cerberus is basically the only option, so (like you said) she might go for it and use it just like Shepard does. And that's pretty much what Warder expressed in that post.

[The Baconer]

And you should explain your arguments. Simply saying "You're wrong" without any evidence isn't high class either.

So, what alternatives do you see for her regarding the choice Warder pointed out?

 

A lot. I left it at "false dichotomy" because the assertion was that her only two choices in life were to join Cerberus, or do absolutely nothing of use to human society. It takes remarkably little to do more than "nothing", does it not? That effort could be applied to any number of trades or professions.

 

Since Cassandra is the military type, we could just throw out the most obvious examples like the work Shepard, Anderson, Hackett... Heck, there are a large number of non-humans in the series that ended up aiding humanity more than Cerberus. Aside from resurrecting Shepard, of course.

[Master Warder Z_]

Kittens...

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Kittens...

*gives you a kitten*

[Master Warder Z_]

*gives you a kitten*

Kitten...cannon?

[Siha]

A lot. I left it at "false dichotomy" because the assertion was that her only two choices in life were to join Cerberus, or do absolutely nothing of use to human society.

 

"In life", I wouldn't go that far. Joining Cerberus is something that happens in a particular situation, at the beginning of ME2 where Shepard has little choice (join or do nothing). It is also not a decision based on mentality or opinion, but merely on options and the perception of an immediate threat.

 

If this is about her joining under other circumstances than those presented at the beginning of ME2, then I can see her join at first but turn her back on them as soon as she sees how unorganized and mislead they are.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Kitten...cannon?

*blinks*

I think you should remember what happened with the nut I gifted you before you disrespect this one.....

[The Baconer]

"In life", I wouldn't go that far. Joining Cerberus is something that happens in a particular situation, at the beginning of ME2 where Shepard has little choice (join or do nothing). It is also not a decision based on mentality or opinion, but merely on options and the perception of an immediate threat.

 

If this is about her joining under other circumstances than those presented at the beginning of ME2, then I can see her join at first but turn her back on them as soon as she sees how unorganized and mislead they are.

 

I viewed as a scenario where she is simply transplanted into the ME universe, just as another human living their life in the galaxy... but, you know, Cassandra. Within the context of ME2, I did say I could see her serving on Shepard's crew, and I would say serving as a "replacement" for Shepard would also be possible. However, the nature of Shepard "working" for or with Cerberus is much different than, say, signing on as an agent. With Shepard they gave tips and assignments related to the Reapers, but for the most part saddled Shepard with a bunch of resources and then let them off the leash. In the game you can shut down one of their active operations, and even dig up some dirt on a number of others, information that is quite incriminating.

 

However, as far as reading the manifesto and signing on goes, I don't think Cassandra would want any part of that. And Cerberus is actually very organized, probably one of the most organized entities in the canon, but that's what makes their work even more heinous. It's a very calculated brand of malevolence.

[Siha]

However, as far as reading the manifesto and signing on goes, I don't think Cassandra would want any part of that. And Cerberus is actually very organized, probably one of the most organized entities in the canon, but that's what makes their work even more heinous. It's a very calculated brand of malevolence.

 

I don't actually know their manifesto, but I do think that on paper they look a lot better than in "reality", so I could see her join -- and turn away again.

And, frankly, especially in ME1 they seemed ridiculous to me, hardly sensibly organized at all. No cell knew what another one was doing, everything got out of hand for no apparent reason. 

 

C: "Help! We experimented with husks and they somehow... we don't know... killed everyone."

S: "Sure thing, I'll just go over there and, uh, press those three buttons."

C: "Phew, that did it. Thanks man."

 

C: "Help! We experimented with robots and they somehow... we don't know... killed everyone."

S: "Sure thing, I'll just climb up there and, uh, destroy those four generators."

C: "Phew, that was close. Thanks man."

 

And so on.

[Lulupab]

Ugh, Qunari "armor".

 

Enjoy them while I'm cheering for Tevinter to destroy the Qunari. It will make up for any mistakes they have made.

[AWTEW]

*blinks*

I think you should remember what happened with the nut I gifted you before you disrespect this one.....

 

....

 

That went weird places in my head..

 

damn kiwi's

 

Ugh, Qunari "armor".

 

Enjoy them while I'm cheering for Tevinter to destroy the Qunari. It will make up for any mistakes they have made.

 

I feel sorry for you if u paid for it..

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

....

That went weird places in my head..

damn kiwi's.

Don't blame it on me. It's your head....

No one should put kitten and cannon in the same sentence.

[AWTEW]

Don't blame it on me. It's your head....

No one should put kitten and cannon in the same sentence.

 It is your fault..being all suggestive like with your nuts...

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

It is your fault..being all suggestive like with your nuts...

How is a nut suggestive? Walnut, acorn, peanut, cashew..... They're just nuts. Almonds......