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[Lulupab]

And Vivienne shows its not.

 
What exactly do you mean by this?
 
Is this about her ideas? She hates the templars as much as the next person but thinks they are useful. The next time you are talking with her, blame the Templars for the whole mess and she actually approves but states while they are to be blame, they have been useful.
 
Or if its about her changes, she takes away most of the power from the Templars and makes them her own puppets, and she makes mages a lot freer inside the circles. Its a reform and nothing remotely close to previous system. Actually in order to do this Vivienne needs the Templars spanked or they will rebel her rule and become independent. You need to either side with mages or disband the Templars or she can't keep the Templars under her leash.

 

You have to admit, she has magister level ambitions for herself. I both applaud her ambition but also hate her for this.

[Master Warder Z_]

While I agree its not unreliable, we must agree that alliance with mages seems the most popular choice.
It doesn't make it right or correct.

But using a poll to try to make some point? That's just sort of sad.

[Lulupab]

Spirit healers are always in contact with spirits of compassion and in general have been known to be pretty powerful mages, even before their possession (if the become possessed anyhow). Anders and Wynne are good examples of this. The lore implies the benefits far outweigh the risks and the chantry openly allows spirit healers to exist.

 

Anders single-handedly kills hundreds of darkspawn if left to defend the vigil's keep. If the defenses are enough after killing all those darkpspawn by himself, he is named the champion of vigil's keep, just like Hawke became Kirkwall's. If the defenses are not enough he allegedly dies, but the evidence is all around him. Hundreds of darkspawn corpse without a single physical wound, all slayed by magic and corpse of Anders in middle of them all.

 

Spirits are not inferior, but they are indeed single-minded. In Justice's case he cannot see the middle grounds or justifications. In his eyes people are either guilty or innocent. The treatment of mages is fully unjust, we may apply some reasons and justifications such as security, but he cannot. But he will never discriminate while humans will and still do. 

[Master Warder Z_]

That makes no sense.

Perhaps if I was single minded myself though, I would agree.

Spirits aren't people, not matter what a inane bald jack ass tells you

[Lulupab]

That makes no sense.

 

Demons have learned to use human cruelty against humans themselves. Spirits haven't/didn't want to.

 

They may be single minded, but they will never lie, never betray or do anything other than fulfilling their virtue. This does not make them inferior, this makes them less complicated beings. LMAO the maker were bored with them because they never deviated from what he created them to be.

[Lulupab]

Even if they were people, being single minded makes them no better than ants.

 

 

Excuse me while I don't take the Compassionate Buddha route and not go out of my way for them.

 

Except spirits have personalities, ants don't.

[Master Warder Z_]

Even if they were people, being single minded makes them no better than ants.

Apt comparison.

I personally ascribe to Lambert's wording of parasite.

Single minded, cancerous, poison.

A leech for lack of a better comparison.

[Lulupab]

Except Lambert was a member of chain parasite himself, like all the lord seekers before him, and after him.

 

Spirits are better beings that half the creatures we call "human"

[Lulupab]

Taking on a single nature is not a personality.

 

Plus, it's all elements of things they glean from dreams. There's no real experience there. Making it even more useless.

 

 

A mage's mind is more valuable... their birthright is to be in control of everything, including the Fade. I'd prefer they not squander what makes them so special.

 

They don't all take the same virtue in the same way. Every spirit we have seen has shown some preference as well as liking somethings. Cole and Justice both had personalities, even though they followed their virtue. Justice showed more sympathy towards mages for example while acknowledging the injustice towards elves.

 

This is what happens when you are not worried about survival, which is something all living beings worry about.

[Boost32]

What exactly do you mean by this?
 
Is this about her ideas? She hates the templars as much as the next person but thinks they are useful. The next time you are talking with her, blame the Templars for the whole mess and she actually approves but states while they are to be blame, they have been useful.
 
Or if its about her changes, she takes away most of the power from the Templars and makes them her own puppets, and she makes mages a lot freer inside the circles. Its a reform and nothing remotely close to previous system. Actually in order to do this Vivienne needs the Templars spanked or they will rebel her rule and become independent. You need to either side with mages or disband the Templars or she can't keep the Templars under her leash.
 
You have to admit, she has magister level ambitions for herself. I both applaud her ambition but also hate her for this.

I mean as example. If you use Anders a example of how it failed, I use her to show it has not.

And Vivienne is not a magister, the only thing they have in common is they are mages, only that.

[Lulupab]

I mean as example. If you use Anders a example of how it failed, I use her to show it has not.

And Vivienne is not a magister, the only thing they have in common is they are mages, only that.

 

The fact that Vivienne makes those changes means the system failed and it needed significant changes to continue on.

 

She cares a lot for her own station and power, hence the magister comparison. Actually she has cast a large shadow for magisters by becoming the divine of the south, something no mage has ever dome before. I'm only comparing her ambition and thirst for power, not personality.

[Master Warder Z_]

On this I agree; mages are a commodity, a precious resource. Beyond the utility to simply conjure ice or flame, mages possess truly wondrous abilities.

To lose that to alien creatures of another plain of reality? Stupid constructs of stolen idea's and dreams?

Ludicrous.

[Lulupab]

Spirit possession is a very rare occurrence anyhow, to the point that Fenris tells Anders he should go Tevinter because his abilities will be appreciated. An abomination has infinite access to fade and literally infinite mana, to the point of utter immunity to tranquility. Losing control from time to time is nothing in comparison to power it grants the mage. I mean in Tevinter's eyes.

 

I'm not saying all mages should get possessed, but as far as possession goes, its several leagues better than demonic possession.

[Boost32]

The fact that Vivienne makes those changes means the system failed and it needed significant changes to continue on.
 
She cares a lot for her own station and power, hence the magister comparison. Actually she has cast a large shadow for magisters by becoming the divine of the south, something no mage has ever dome before. I'm only comparing her ambition and thirst for power, not personality.

I don't think so, the "new" system if she is Divine is almost like the old. Mages still in the Circles under templar watch, she doesn't tolerate rebels and put them down fiercely and quickly.
She makes a few changes, but the system stay the same.


And again, the only thing she has in common is being a mage.
She would never resort to blood magic (and even Cole confirms it), she doesn't see mages a the apex of humanity (Cole even says she prefers being a noble than a mage) and she didn't became when she reached the power she wanted like the Black Divine, hell she even never lied to the Inquisitor.

[Lulupab]

I'll say this... It might be a better solution than Tranquility. Some mages are just weak willed or weak in general, and maybe this would be a good way to help them... if they blended with a Spirit, their Willpower is boosted... That is, if there was a way to be reliable and not go all Vengeance on people. Unlike Tranquility, maybe there's a part of their real personality that can be salvaged with this.

 

But it's no way a good thing for otherwise competent mages. It's like trading a BMW for a Pinto.

 

It depends on the mage tbh. Spirit healers who simply draw power from spirits are very strong mages and are healers. The codex explicitly mentions healing is very hard and only the most capable mages can do it. Spirits are no more dangerous than blood magic, if the mage knows what he is doing he can gain a lot of power without actually getting possessed. 

 

The mages draw power from the fade, a spirit is an embodiment of the fade. A possessed mage no longer needs the fade to cast spells and accordingly his connection cannot be severed from his magic source which means not even the Templars can oppose his magic.

[Boost32]

I'll say this... It might be a better solution than Tranquility. Some mages are just weak willed or weak in general, and maybe this would be a good way to help them... if they blended with a Spirit, their Willpower is boosted... That is, if there was a way to be reliable and not go all Vengeance on people. Unlike Tranquility, maybe there's a part of their real personality that can be salvaged with this.
 
But it's no way a good thing for otherwise competent mages. It's like trading a BMW for a Pinto.

Or they can corrupt the spirit and become a abomination like Anders.

[Lulupab]

I don't think so, the "new" system if she is Divine is almost like the old. Mages still in the Circles under templar watch, she doesn't tolerate rebels and put them down fiercely and quickly.
She makes a few changes, but the system stay the same.


And again, the only thing she has in common is being a mage.
She would never resort to blood magic (and even Cole confirms it), she doesn't see mages a the apex of humanity (Cole even says she prefers being a noble than a mage) and she didn't became when she reached the power she wanted like the Black Divine, hell she even never lied to the Inquisitor.

 

She takes almost all the power from Templars to prevent even the smallest abuse, its the very definition of significant change. Templars are now mere soldiers who take order from a mage. 

 

Boost please. 

 

Glorified watch dogs is more correct about Templars under Vivienne.

[Boost32]

She takes almost all the power from Templars to prevent even the smallest abuse, its the very definition of significant change. Templars are now mere soldiers who take order from a mage. 
 
Boost please. 
 
Glorified watch dogs is more correct about Templars under Vivienne.

The epilogue only says she leash the templars to her, never stated she took away their authority over mages.
And they can be glorified watch dogs, I don't mind, they still doing their job.