1016 réponses à ce sujet

[Valkyrja]

It should be less like Dragon Age and more like Drakengard.

[Farangbaa]

Destroying the Collector base keeps the intel from the Illusive Man; a good thing, as it is proven that he is indoctrinated, and cannot be trusted.

Metagaming. Not relevant.

[DragonBears]

Not to be an azz, but those types of RPGs are becoming a thing of the past. Like I mentioned with Fallout 4, even Bethesda is going the way of a tight scripted narrative. I mean, it will still be a "your own adventure" type game, still, don't go into it thinking that it will be a similar experience like Fallout 3 or any other "old school" silent protagonist RPG.

 

Its funny because Bioware banked hard on the Skyrim "neutral" protagonist with DAI and now Bethesda is moving away from the neutral protagonist and something more refined, perhaps like a Commander Shepard or Hawke, but with more freedom. Now I expect with DA4, Bioware will move back to the Shepard/Hawke approach and I believe the ME:A protagonist would be more in line with Shepard in terms of actually having a personality. 

 

Times are changing....

 

I don't see where you get the tight-scripted narrative from. Bethesda games have always featured a central quest line, so it is reasonable to assume Fallout 4 will too. The main difference is that Bethesda central quests are a much smaller proportion of what makes the game than is typical of Bioware. I don't see that changing either. Obviously any improvement in the quality of the interaction with the world is appreciated, but to my eyes it looked remarkably similar to FO3.

 

It does appear that they have gone for a fully-voiced dumb-wheel driven character, which is regrettable as the dumb-wheel paraphrasing is often misleading ( hence the name I give it ). The Fallout 4 voices seem relatively neutral ( i.e. not overly irritating ), but I would still prefer the option to replace the voice with sub-titles; maybe a mod will resolve that.

 

It seems strange that you get so much choice over what a character looks like, but none over the voice. Perhaps in time you will be able to record the language phonemes in your own voice and have the game generate the character voice, but even then, I suspect the intonation would be different from mentally voicing the lines.

 

Anyway, I see nothing in the available FO4 footage that suggests they have moved in any significant way from the typical elements that make Bethesda games, and certainly no evidence that the game will enforce a narrow scripted path. You may have source I have not seen, of course...

[Elhanan]

Metagaming. Not relevant.

Proven indoctrination comes later; cannot be trusted is fairly apparent by that time in the game. Have kept the choice to have blown the base every time, and no regrets.

[Farangbaa]

Proven indoctrination comes later; cannot be trusted is fairly apparent by that time in the game. Have kept the choice to have blown the base every time, and no regrets.

I'd have given the base to Hitler if it was my only option.

[KaiserShep]

Proven indoctrination comes later; cannot be trusted is fairly apparent by that time in the game. Have kept the choice to have blown the base every time, and no regrets.

The thing that bugs me about this is that drones exist in the MEU. In vast abundance. Cerberus just plants people around ancient techno-cooties so that we have iZombies to fight.

[DragonBears]

Like I said, to each their own. I like Sausage Pizza, you like Pepperoni, and Jason likes neither. There will always be a market for something, but how large and profitable that market is.....is another story. Like I said before, it was funny how Bioware tried to appeal to the Skyrim crowd by going with the design choice that they did with DAI, and now Bethesda is trying to appeal to the "Mass Effect" crowd by going the cinematic dialog approach with a voiced protagonist and a dialog wheel similar to that of Mass Effect. Considering this, I wonder what approach Bioware will take with DA4 seeing how Bethesda is trying to be more cinematic now.

 

In the end, I believe ME:A will be more of a representation of where Bioware wants to go than what DAI was, especially since ME:A is their first "next gen" game and DAI was basically held back because of PS3 and Xbox 360. In a way, DA4 could be more like ME:A than DAI.

 

Difficult to say. Although I have not yet bothered with DA:I, as far as I can tell from this thread and other sources, the only Skyrim element that was included was a large environment. That is intrinsic to Bethesda game worlds, but not really what makes them enjoyable and popular.

 

But I agree that the trend for games will be voiced-dialog via dumb-wheel, because a lot of games players are much younger that the cohort that remembers the world before computers, and that is what they want.

 

For my generation, the media wasn't so dominated by film and television. Most of my media consumption when young was in the form of books where the written word combined with my own imagination to evoke the sight and sounds of the story. So my mental image of the "Lord of the Rings", for example, is completely different to what Peter Jackson produced. Not better or worse, but definitely different. Those who saw the films first would have a tough job imagining anything different.

 

Younger generations of games players will definitely have different expectations of what is acceptable to them, and a different experience of how and when they access their own imaginations. I understand and accept that, but it doesn't mean that I shouldn't want alternatives that cater to my preferences where they are reasonable.

 

As it stands, I have simply become more selective in playing games, and I rarely bother with a game until after it has all of its content available ( i.e. All DLC ) and can assess it properly. And I live in the fervent hope that not everything ends up like "The Order 1886"...

[FaWa]

I hope it's as linear as possible, DAI enlightened me on Bioware's strengths and weaknesses. 

[DragonBears]

But if pure RP and exploration with a "mute" protagonist is something you like, what do you think about No Man's Sky? I mean, it isn't all high budget but it does sound like something that is in the realm of what you like in terms of creating your own adventure/story and giving purpose to your own ambitions.

 

 

No man's sky is potentially very important, and really quite experimental. Almost the entire thing is computationally generated rather than artistically built, which is probably going to become an increasingly important technique in containing budgets for increasingly large games in the future.

 

I am curious to see how, or if, this generated content is made interesting to those that like aspects of games other than exploration. It is certainly not likely to be very story-driven.

[Elhanan]

The thing that bugs me about this is that drones exist in the MEU. In vast abundance. Cerberus just plants people around ancient techno-cooties so that we have iZombies to fight.

Do not quite understand, but seeing as Shepard is one of those Tech-Zombies, handing over even greater tech to the unscrupulous leader seems like a really bad idea.

[BabyPuncher]

No man's sky is potentially very important, and really quite experimental. Almost the entire thing is computationally generated rather than artistically built, which is probably going to become an increasingly important technique in containing budgets for increasingly large games in the future.

 

Procedurally generated content is not a particularly new technique, and it's been used in plenty of games. And it's generally occured more-or-less in cycles of developers using procedural generation and switching back to handcrafted content and vice versa.

[Gannayev of Dreams]

Mass Effect and Dragon Age games have always been very different, I don't know why this would suddenly be a fear.

[dragonflight288]

Mass Effect and Dragon Age games have always been very different, I don't know why this would suddenly be a fear.

 

It gives people something to talk about because so little has been confirmed, and the fact that we're going to Andromeda is now a dead horse that has been beaten to death three times over. 

 

And some people simply like complaining about Bioware, and have been for every game that's been announced, and every game that comes out is always a step backwards. 

 

Mass Effect was clunky with a weak male-voice actor, ME2 apparently made combat too simple for people and should go back to being like ME, ME3 had its ending and there were calls for Bioware to retcon the whole thing, to the point it was even taken to the American Government as a complaint (even though Bioware is a Canadian company.)

 

People complain about every game. I take such threads with a grain of salt, and mostly I try to, when I criticize something, hope my criticism is constructive and improves overall quality, even if not for the game I'm playing but for future products, to make for more satisfying gaming experiences. 

 

I also enjoy debating issues when there's a larger representation that can be applied. Like the mage/templar debate in the Dragon Age forums being largely a representation of security vs liberty and how too much power on either side leads to brutal abuses of said power. 

[LinksOcarina]

Read my edit.

And the Geth decision, again, is not of the same order as the Collector Base or Genophage research. Keeping either of these hurts no one, destroying them could be the end for a species (the research) or everyone (the base).

Those are decision like the ending of the trilogy, where you can choose to save the galaxy, or take some pointless, needless and stupid moral stance and doom everybody... in the process becoming an amoral ******.

Slightly off, but a real life example would be what happened after WWII. The USA had captured hundres, if not thousands of Nazi spies, scientists, engineers, etc. They could've taken a moral stance and executed all of them for what they had done.

But they didn't, they recruited them and put them to use against the Soviets.

I think we can all agree that was the only right decision. Right?

 

We also imprisoned thousands of Japanese-Americans for the same fear of spies and information going out. 

 

The right decision is not the easiest I agree on that, but it shouldn't always be obvious, which is the point. Amoral decisions are decisions where you dont care about the consequences, it is a bit disingenuous to say such decisions are found in video games, when we are made to care about the situations presented to us. 

 

Plus, the re-writing the Geth is an ethical quandary in of its own right, you are choosing genocide or brainwashing for robots.

 

I guess because it's robots it makes it ok, but doesnt that make your Shepard amoral regarding the issue?

[dragonflight288]

We also imprisoned thousands of Japanese-Americans for the same fear of spies and information going out. 

 

The right decision is not the easiest I agree on that, but it shouldn't always be obvious, which is the point. Amoral decisions are decisions where you dont care about the consequences, it is a bit disingenuous to say such decisions are found in video games, when we are made to care about the situations presented to us. 

 

Plus, the re-writing the Geth is an ethical quandary in of its own right, you are choosing genocide or slavery brainwashing into accepting beliefs they oppose for robots.

 

I guess because it's robots it makes it ok, but doesnt that make your Shepard amoral regarding the issue?

 

Fixed that for you. 

[FaWa]

IMO Mass Effect and Dragon Age are very similar, just different settings and combat. 

[LinksOcarina]

Fixed that for you. 

 

fair point, brainwashing does apply. 

[Farangbaa]

We also imprisoned thousands of Japanese-Americans for the same fear of spies and information going out.

Yeah, that was bad  
 

The right decision is not the easiest I agree on that, but it shouldn't always be obvious, which is the point. Amoral decisions are decisions where you dont care about the consequences, it is a bit disingenuous to say such decisions are found in video games, when we are made to care about the situations presented to us. 
 
Plus, the re-writing the Geth is an ethical quandary in of its own right, you are choosing genocide or brainwashing for robots.
 
I guess because it's robots it makes it ok, but doesnt that make your Shepard amoral regarding the issue?

The Geth decision is so different, and that has nothing to with whatever you assume I think of the Geth being 'robots'. In that decision you're always doing something to them, whether it's destroying them or 'brainwashing' them. You're choosing between two evils.

That's not the case with the research and the base. Destroying either of these is taking a moral stance where it isn't necessary. The evil has already been done there, you can either choose to put the results to good use or destroy it.

[dragonflight288]

On another subject, I hope the next Dragon Age game is not like the Mass Effect ones.

 

It is its own entity. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

The right decision is not the easiest I agree on that, but it shouldn't always be obvious, which is the point. Amoral decisions are decisions where you dont care about the consequences, it is a bit disingenuous to say such decisions are found in video games, when we are made to care about the situations presented to us.

The consequences aren't known at the time of the choice, then they don't matter. We can onlt judge decisions based on the information available at the time the decision was made.

Hindsight is always irrelevant.

Amoral decisions are decisions that have no moral relevance. It's up to you to decide what your morality says. The game shouldn't do that for you.

Plus, the re-writing the Geth is an ethical quandary in of its own right, you are choosing genocide or brainwashing for robots.

Both of those look grossly immoral to me. If Geth are people, you need not to kill them and not to enslave them.

If Geth are not people, then it doesn't matter what you do.

Those two options are either both immoral or both amoral. There's no way to get out of that looking like a hero.

[LinksOcarina]

The consequences aren't known at the time of the choice, then they don't matter. We can onlt judge decisions based on the information available at the time the decision was made.

Hindsight is always irrelevant.

Amoral decisions are decisions that have no moral relevance. It's up to you to decide what your morality says. The game shouldn't do that for you.
Both of those look grossly immoral to me. If Geth are people, you need not to kill them and not to enslave them.

If Geth are not people, then it doesn't matter what you do.

Those two options are either both immoral or both amoral. There's no way to get out of that looking like a hero.

 

thank you for proving my point, sylvius.

[Vortex13]

I didn't like the Krogan, but then I didn't get the whole genophage dilemma.  In fact, I didn't think it was a dilemma.

 

If you value the Krogan as individuals (if you think they are people), then the genophage was an appalling attack upon them and should be undone as soon as possible, regardless of the indirect consequences to the other species.  That's only one lemma.  Was there another side to the argument?

 

I was shocked when we didn't even have the option to keep the genophage cure in ME1.

 

 

 

I agree with the bolded statement. The Krogan Genophage was an entirely one-sided affair and any semblance of a logical counter point on the issue; or even the clear facts that it wasn't the Genophage that was killing the Krogan; was thrown out the airlock by the time ME 2 rolled around.

 

 

The narrative opted to gloss over the fact that your average Krogan, since the outcome of their Rebellion, have made it known in no uncertain terms that they would not hesitate to kill the Turians or the Salarians en masse if they were ever in a position to do so. That general attitude isn't really conductive to any meaningful interaction; I mean is the galaxy supposed to walk on eggshells and put on a smile when dealing with a society that would have no qualms about killing them and their families based on the outcome of a war (that said society started) over 2,000 years ago? Even the humans and Turians where able to (largely) reconcile their respective grievances from the First Contact War, and that happened only a little over 30 years ago.

 

 

The subsequent titles also conveniently forget that the Krogans rendered 3 garden worlds completely un-inhabitable via redirected asteroid impacts, and killed untold numbers of Turians in the process when they weren't even a part of the government that the Krogan had an issue with. Redirected Asteroids, one of the weapons outlawed by they Council and one of the most demonizing elements used against the Batarians when they tried to destroy a human colony and the Krogan are recorded as having done that 3 times. Even the Rachni Wars don't mention that much devastation; loss of life sure; but the victorious Council species were able to reclaim formerly held worlds. The Krogan are the only species in the lore to be mentioned as using such devastating tactics, and yet the games would have us ignore that fact and see only the poor down trodden species, that has been unjustly targeted by the racist galaxy; or at least not let us players bring that information up when discussing the cure of the Genophage. If anything, the Genophage was a rather lenient punishment. The galaxy hunted the Rachni to extinction (as far as everyone knew) for their invasion of Citadel Space, whereas the Krogan (who arguably caused far more damage) are only given a virility stabilizer.

[Elhanan]

'Walk on eggshells' is an appropriate term, considering what the Genophage did to the Krogan. The penalty far exceeded the crime, IMO.

[Sylvius the Mad]

'Walk on eggshells' is an appropriate term, considering what the Genophage did to the Krogan. The penalty far exceeded the crime, IMO.

What crime? They were expanding rapidly, as their biology required. If there was a crime, it was the Salarians who committed it by uplifting the Krogan.

If we value the Krogan as people, then I think we have to let them compete with the other races fairly. If the other races fall to extinction, they did so on their own merits.

If, however, you think that the other races are correct to defend themselves from this new threat, then the genophage is simply their natural response to the rise of the Krogan.

Depending how we categorize the various events and entities involved in the question, we can render either side moral.

But I don't see how to make it a difficult question.

[Elhanan]

What crime? They were expanding rapidly, as their biology required. If there was a crime, it was the Salarians who committed it by uplifting the Krogan.

If we value the Krogan as people, then I think we have to let them compete with the other races fairly. If the other races fall to extinction, they did so on their own merits.

If, however, you think that the other races are correct to defend themselves from this new threat, then the genophage is simply their natural response to the rise of the Krogan.

Depending how we categorize the various events and entities involved in the question, we can render either side moral.

But I don't see how to make it a difficult question.

Personally, do not care much about the lore for most games; know more about the DA series than most, but generally skip reading most of what is offered for others. When I play Shepard, I was not thinking of the historical record of the race; simply made my call on what was known then at the time. And I saved the research. However, if one is not using an imported character, saving the data may not be an option. And I have used several characters to view the other side of that issue.

With the Collector base, I have always destroyed it, regardless of the other choice. No matter what the storyline offers, handing such information to the Illusive man poses a greater threat then benefit. But this is my own opinion; do not expect it from others, but will defend it in forum debates.

Back to the question: As far as I can tell, the crime the Krogans are charged with is one of not adhering to Council rules. And as has been demonstrated elsewhere, it is rather difficult to hold an outside force to those rules when they are not part of the Council, be it Krogan, Qunari, Vorcha, or Reapers.