1016 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Define "compete with the other races fairly."

[Vortex13]

 

With the Collector base, I have always destroyed it, regardless of the other choice. No matter what the storyline offers, handing such information to the Illusive man poses a greater threat then benefit. But this is my own opinion; do not expect it from others, but will defend it in forum debates.

 

I can agree with the Collector Base's destruction from the position of keeping the data out of the Illusive Man's and therefore Cerberus's hands. Losing the information is a waste, but giving an ally of consequence; and one who has shown to be deceptive, and quite willing to kill Shepard and his allies if they got in the way (ME 1 Cerberus) is just as foolish.

 

 

I really wish that the player could choose to give the base to the Alliance/Council instead of just blowing it up. 

 

 

 

Back to the question: As far as I can tell, the crime the Krogans are charged with is one of not adhering to Council rules. And as has been demonstrated elsewhere, it is rather difficult to hold an outside force to those rules when they are not part of the Council, be it Krogan, Qunari, Vorcha, or Reapers.

 

 

The Krogan were a part of the Council prior to the Rebellions, they attempted to annex the other member's planets and when they naturally refused the Krogan had a temper tantrum, quit the government, and decided to take what they wanted by force.

[KaiserShep]

The krogan were lucky. If I was Primarch, I would have simply rendered them extinct and be done with them for good.

[AlanC9]

I really wish that the player could choose to give the base to the Alliance/Council instead of just blowing it up.

Wouldn't that be tantamount to abolishing the choice outright? Who'd pick anything else?

[KaiserShep]

Wouldn't that be tantamount to abolishing the choice outright? Who'd pick anything else?

 

 

It would. I maintain that the choice should simply have not existed at all. 

[dreamgazer]

Wouldn't that be tantamount to abolishing the choice outright? Who'd pick anything else?

 

Cerberus supporters. 

[DragonBears]

Procedurally generated content is not a particularly new technique, and it's been used in plenty of games. And it's generally occured more-or-less in cycles of developers using procedural generation and switching back to handcrafted content and vice versa.

 

Yes, there have been occasions when procedural content has been used, but nothing approaching this scale and variety as far as I can recall ( unless you know differently? ). I think that a lot of games suffer somewhat from the proportion of their budget given over to simply creating artistic content, which will likely only get worse in future games.

[Vortex13]

The krogan were lucky. If I was Primarch, I would have simply rendered them extinct and be done with them for good.

 

 

I wouldn't have, mostly because I hate it when a setting loses any of the various races/species that make it unique. In a meta sense, wiping out the various aliens of the setting only makes it more bland and boring; and yes I am including the Rachni, and Thorian in that opinion as well.

 

 

I wouldn't kill off all the Krogan if I were the Primarch, but I would gladly deploy the Genophage, and it's various 'upgrades' and not lose any sleep over it.

[Elhanan]

I can agree with the Collector Base's destruction from the position of keeping the data out of the Illusive Man's and therefore Cerberus's hands. Losing the information is a waste, but giving an ally of consequence; and one who has shown to be deceptive, and quite willing to kill Shepard and his allies if they got in the way (ME 1 Cerberus) is just as foolish. 
 
I really wish that the player could choose to give the base to the Alliance/Council instead of just blowing it up.  

 
The Krogan were a part of the Council prior to the Rebellions, they attempted to annex the other member's planets and when they naturally refused the Krogan had a temper tantrum, quit the government, and decided to take what they wanted by force.

True enough on the Rebellion, but only the Council races are obliged to fight by their rules; hard to impose such laws on those outside of their influence. Even then, the likely reasons why Cerberus and the Reapers were not receiving asteroid candy-grams are mentioned by the two posted as Normandy door security; would not be effective.

[Vortex13]

True enough on the Rebellion, but only the Council races are obliged to fight by their rules; hard to impose such laws on those outside of their influence. Even then, the likely reasons why Cerberus and the Reapers were not receiving asteroid candy-grams are mentioned by the two posted as Normandy door security; would not be effective.

 

 

Oh I agree with you there, and I am not doubting the effectiveness of using such a weapon. My issue lies with the narrative's, and by extension the Krogan's, utter shock and revulsion that the galaxy would resort to something as barbaric as the Genophage.

 

A perfect example of this hypocrisy is in ME1, Wrex says: "We were tools of the Council once, and to thank us for wiping out the Rachni, they neutered us all."

 

That's not why the Genophage was deployed Wrex. 

[Elhanan]

Oh I agree with you there, and I am not doubting the effectiveness of using such a weapon. My issue lies with the narrative's, and by extension the Krogan's, utter shock and revulsion that the galaxy would resort to something as barbaric as the Genophage.
 
A perfect example of this hypocrisy is in ME1, Wrex says: "We were tools of the Council once, and to thank us for wiping out the Rachni, they neutered us all."
 
That's not why the Genophage was deployed Wrex. 

I also seem to recall that this penalty was employed over 1000 years before the events of the ME series. As Garrus notes, it is nice not to have to exterminate an entire race along the way.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Define "compete with the other races fairly."

Each succeeds or fails based on their natural attributes. Depending how we define natural, that could mean that the Krogan overrun the galaxy (because of their impressive battle prowess and reproduction), or that they languish under the yoke of the genophage (as the ability to develop that was a natural attribute of the Salarians).

My point here is that to have any sort of moral position on the Krogan/genophage issue, we basically have to make up a bunch of stuff regarding core concepts like fairness and justice and nature.

There's no real basis for any of it.

[KaiserShep]

I wouldn't have, mostly because I hate it when a setting loses any of the various races/species that make it unique. In a meta sense, wiping out the various aliens of the setting only makes it more bland and boring; and yes I am including the Rachni, and Thorian in that opinion as well.

 

 

I wouldn't kill off all the Krogan if I were the Primarch, but I would gladly deploy the Genophage, and it's various 'upgrades' and not lose any sleep over it.

 

Well sure, from a meta perspective, I would probably be more willing to spare this and that, because the setting may be more interesting with them, but if putting myself in the position of a turian leader dealing with a bloodthirsty race of dinosaur locusts that both breed and wreak havoc like wildfire, I'd probably seek to destroy them so completely that whatever's left would probably just wander bewildered into the wilds to get eaten by a thresher maw. 

 

The salarians obviously provided an out with the genophage, so the krogan are damned lucky that they even bothered to think of curtailing their ridiculous reproduction rate. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Oh I agree with you there, and I am not doubting the effectiveness of using such a weapon. My issue lies with the narrative's, and by extension the Krogan's, utter shock and revulsion that the galaxy would resort to something as barbaric as the Genophage.

A perfect example of this hypocrisy is in ME1, Wrex says: "We were tools of the Council once, and to thank us for wiping out the Rachni, they neutered us all."

That's not why the Genophage was deployed Wrex.

Does Wrex have any reason to care why the genophage was deployed? It wasn't deployed because of anything he or any living Krogan did, but they all continue to pay the price for it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wouldn't that be tantamount to abolishing the choice outright? Who'd pick anything else?

Whomever we award with the base, that choice isn't permanent. There's always the chance that someone else will control it in the future.

But if we destroy it, it's gone.

I choose the option with less finality.

Giving that sort of thing to the government is going to be way harder to undo later. Giving it to a criminal organization, less so.

[dragonflight288]

Does Wrex have any reason to care why the genophage was deployed? It wasn't deployed because of anything he or any living Krogan did, but they all continue to pay the price for it.

 

There's a side conversation with EDI in ME3 that discusses the logistics of the Krogan's birthrate.

 

She talks about how a single Krogan female can produce up to 1000 offspring, so if even only a very small percentage of Krogan were cured of the genophage, we would be looking at billions of births in a year.

 

Wrex is awesome, but we may also be looking at a couple hundred billion Wreave's in a single Salarian lifespan. 

 

Add in the lack of space on Tuchunka and the violent nature of Krogan, as Wrex says in ME, ask a Krogan if they would work to cure the genophage or fight for credits, they'll pick fighting every time as its their nature, and we're looking at a massive overpopulation of a single species, who are not shy on planetary destruction tactics having rendered 3 garden worlds utterly uninhabitable during the rebellions.

 

I have always cured the genophage, but as Mordin says, look at a Korgan, salarian or turian you can make a pretty good guess on what they're like because of the species characteristics but humans are the most diverse due to the genetic code. 

 

If you're looking at a Krogan, you're looking at someone who can fight and is naturally aggressive, even if they are reasonable like Wrex, or that engineer Char, who still ended up fighting because he could. 

 

The game does a very poor job of presenting how brutal the Krogan can be if they are not restrained, and that brutality ought to be enough to make anyone second guess curing the genophage. Genocide is not right, but a violent and bloody war, while not necessarily inevitable, is incredibly likely.

 

If Wrex is not enough to keep the Krogan aggression in check, and it's not anything against the Krogan when I say that, it's just the nature of a Krogan as admitted to by the Krogan, there will be a massive overpopulation, again, and the Krogan will need to find planets to settle, again, and there's no guarantee they won't try to annex other races homeworlds again.

 

It also doesn't help that many Krogan outright admit that they want payback on the Salarians for making the genophage and the turians for deploying it, and are fully expecting Wrex or Wreave to lead them to a vengeance. 

 

These are all causes for great concern about the Krogan and curing the genophage.

 

But like I said, I've always cured it. This thread however is making me consider a playthrough where I trick the Krogan. I can't bring myself to do that to Wrex, so I'll have to let him die in ME with my current engineer in order to just so I can bring myself to do it. 

 

Probably says a lot about me that I can't bring myself to lie to a friend, even a fictional one. 

[KaiserShep]

I imagine they'd be more against the salarians in the end, since at least with the turians, they fought alongside them in a protracted battle against the reapers. 

 

In any case, one interesting little tidbit in ME3 is Garvug, a planet basically left a total wasteland thanks to krogan colonization. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

There's a side conversation with EDI in ME3 that discusses the logistics of the Krogan's birthrate.

She talks about how a single Krogan female can produce up to 1000 offspring, so if even only a very small percentage of Krogan were cured of the genophage, we would be looking at billions of births in a year.

Wrex is awesome, but we may also be looking at a couple hundred billion Wreave's in a single Salarian lifespan.

Add in the lack of space on Tuchunka and the violent nature of Krogan, as Wrex says in ME, ask a Krogan if they would work to cure the genophage or fight for credits, they'll pick fighting every time as its their nature, and we're looking at a massive overpopulation of a single species, who are not shy on planetary destruction tactics having rendered 3 garden worlds utterly uninhabitable during the rebellions.

I have always cured the genophage, but as Mordin says, look at a Korgan, salarian or turian you can make a pretty good guess on what they're like because of the species characteristics but humans are the most diverse due to the genetic code.

If you're looking at a Krogan, you're looking at someone who can fight and is naturally aggressive, even if they are reasonable like Wrex, or that engineer Char, who still ended up fighting because he could.

The game does a very poor job of presenting how brutal the Krogan can be if they are not restrained, and that brutality ought to be enough to make anyone second guess curing the genophage. Genocide is not right, but a violent and bloody war, while not necessarily inevitable, is incredibly likely.

If Wrex is not enough to keep the Krogan aggression in check, and it's not anything against the Krogan when I say that, it's just the nature of a Krogan as admitted to by the Krogan, there will be a massive overpopulation, again, and the Krogan will need to find planets to settle, again, and there's no guarantee they won't try to annex other races homeworlds again.

It also doesn't help that many Krogan outright admit that they want payback on the Salarians for making the genophage and the turians for deploying it, and are fully expecting Wrex or Wreave to lead them to a vengeance.

These are all causes for great concern about the Krogan and curing the genophage.

But that's all from the non-Krogan point of view. A Krogan may well think that they're entitled to all the planets they need, and if the other races hadn't wanted that then they should have thought of it before uplifting the Krogan.

[Elhanan]

But that's all from the non-Krogan point of view. A Krogan may well think that they're entitled to all the planets they need, and if the other races hadn't wanted that then they should have thought of it before uplifting the Krogan.

From a story POV, think you are going to enjoy ME3....

[KaiserShep]

But that's all from the non-Krogan point of view. A Krogan may well think that they're entitled to all the planets they need, and if the other races hadn't wanted that then they should have thought of it before uplifting the Krogan.

 

Heh, by other races, you mean the troublesome salarians, who were also secretly looking to uplift the yagh. Damn frogs and their constant species manipulation. But then, the protheans did the same thing with the rachni, and the next cycle inherited that problem. 

[Vortex13]

But that's all from the non-Krogan point of view. A Krogan may well think that they're entitled to all the planets they need, and if the other races hadn't wanted that then they should have thought of it before uplifting the Krogan.

 

 

Then the Krogan shouldn't be all that shocked when the galaxy does something about it. They can't be so thick skulled as to think that the other species would just sit there and let the Krogan take all they wanted. Like others have said, they should consider themselves damn lucky that all the Council did was to bring their reproductive rates back to pre-industrial levels.

[Vortex13]

Does Wrex have any reason to care why the genophage was deployed? It wasn't deployed because of anything he or any living Krogan did, but they all continue to pay the price for it.

 

 

I would say that Wrex needs to have his facts straight should he try and talk to the other species about curing the Genophage. He is the de-facto leader of his people, in the greater galaxy he is going to have to consider the bigger picture, especially if he wants the other races to help his own.

 

 

I say should, because that is how it would have worked in a more realistic or balanced scenario. Instead Wrex gets to shout about how right the Krogan are, and how wrong the rest of the galaxy is, and the other side gets reduced to petty, moronic, speciesists with no other reasoning behind wanting to stop the Genophage cure other than: "We just don't like the Krogan." 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Then the Krogan shouldn't be all that shocked when the galaxy does something about it.

No, they shouldn't. But they should laugh when the other species try to invent moral justification for it.

[Elhanan]

If forced sterilization of a race for over a thousand years is the civilized plan to control them, then perhaps there should be a better plan. Or the creators should not be too surprised when something is done about it.

[Vortex13]

No, they shouldn't. But they should laugh when the other species try to invent moral justification for it.

 

 

Same thing for the Krogan trying to attach moral justification for the Genophage cure. 

 

If they are going to absolve themselves of any wrongdoing during the Rebellions, and maintain an antagonistic relationship with the rest of the galaxy; the Turians and Salarians in particular; then there is no reason why the Genophage should be brought up on the same moral standards that the Krogan themselves refuse to acknowledge.