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[Feybrad]

I wished I had played the version of DAI that you got, my copy didn't come with any of those things. 

 

That's a Shame, the Copy he and I and many others played really did allow for these Things.

[Ieldra]

I'd rather hope ME:A will be nothing like ME3 (and no, this isn't about the ending). DAI has its flaws, but on the whole it's vastly more enjoyable.

[pdusen]

I wished I had played the version of DAI that you got, my copy didn't come with any of those things. 

 

Perhaps it would help if you opened the box.

[Vortex13]

One thing that I would like ME:A to have that neither ME 3 nor DA:I had, is for there to be actual non-human elements to the setting. I know that creating a full fledged alien is, by it's definition impossible, but if you look back on BioWare's earlier games you can see how much more varied the non-human(-like) elements of the two settings were compared to the very human(-like) centric games that we have now. 

 

In ME 1, we were able to see aliens like the Elcor, the Hanar, the Rachni, the Thorian, and even the Geth (though their development was in ME 2 for the most part); aliens, that while not entirely foreign to human comprehension, were different enough to offer a decidedly 'other' vibe to the galaxy that humanity was just finding their place in. But flash forward to ME 3 and the 'alien' aliens of the setting are in extremely short supply.

 

• The Elcor and Hanar lost all of their original characterization and have become the meme/joke races of the setting, no exploration of their various cultures, or how they interact with the galaxy at large; stereotyping that would be considered extremely racist if used in a similar context for humans is what they are left with in the form of the Blasto trailers.

 

• A unique insectiod species with a very interesting culture based on sound and color the Rachni are ignored for the most part despite the fact that they are the only species to actually prepare, and offer condition free support to Shepard, in the fight against the Reapers. Their many unique abilities; including a seeming invulnerability to Reaper indoctrination is conveniently forgotten because: "Ew. Bugs". A species that could provide a major boon to the galaxy in several areas, as well as being more agreeable to change and co-operation than the Krogan, are regulated to a bit part in the adventure.

 

• As a plant based species, the Thorian offered a very unique take on intelligent life, not to mention the fact that it could provide invaluable information about the previous cycle possibly even earlier cycles without the need for a cypher. Unfortunately, the game offers no alternative to dealing with it other than shooting it, and in subsequent titles it is completely forgotten about.

 

• The Geth are shown to be a form of swarm intelligence in ME 2, and while they are different than the organics of the galaxy, they don't resent us for it; they are curious about the other races, but they remain distinctly their own, not wanting the be like us. Come ME 3 and all of that development is thrown out the airlock in favor a trite Pinocchio storyline wherein the Geth truly weren't alive until they could be just like us.

 

 As the series has moved on we have seen less and less of the non-human aspects of the galaxy and instead focused more on human-like aspects to the point that it seems that the entire Milky Way is solely inhabited by beings that only think and act like us.

 

 

 

Likewise in DA:O/DA:A Thedas was home to intelligent demons, darkspawn, sylvans, werewolves, golems, and dragons; creatures that had their own unique personalities and motivations. Now, while several of these examples are the result of rather unique circumstances, they still offered a view at the world that didn't immediately conform to our way of doing things. Moving forward to DA:I however, and all of that characterization and uniqueness is gone.

 

• The demons and spirits in DA:O/DA:A have a wide array of personalities and motivations, and the PC meets with several of the different types throughout their play through. In DA:I, all of the demons/spirits the player encounters are mindless monsters, and outside of Cole (who is very, very humanized) the three instances where the player can actually talk to one of them involves killing more demons in some form or another. Instead of being alien entities, curious about the mortal world, the spirits and demons are depicted as even less intelligent than an infuriated Rage Demon. 

 

• Darkspawn once again are the throwaway mooks when the game tires of the player killing bandits, and any development with the Awakened, and their possible alliance with the Grey Wardens is not mentioned. Even the regular Darkspawns' cunning intellect is abandoned in the fluff in favor of mute, mindless opponents.

 

• Golems, Werewolves, and Sylvans are nonexistent in any of the subsequent games, and their closest analog in DA:I; Giants; are literally mindless monsters that attack everything on sight. No interaction can be found with them outside of combat, despite the fact that there are two instances wherein the Red Templars and Venotari, enslave a number of them, and such a side plot would make an interesting opportunity to win favor with the tribes by rescuing the captives. But no, non-human/elf/dwarf/qunari = kill it for XP.

 

• Dragons are just big, dumb bears or wolves with scales, wings and a breath weapon, all of that cunning and intelligence from the Dragon Cult High Dragon in DA:O is gone. While certainly impressive when encountered, the dragons of DA:I have no real intelligence behind their actions; in the first game you encounter one that allowed a group of people to enter into it's lair uncontested because it realized that they would help feed and protect it.

 

Thedas in DA:I feels less varied that it's predecessors; instead of humans, elves, dwarves, and qunari only making up a small portion of the world's inhabitants, it is instead a world comprised only of our human(-like) concerns and in massive need of an exterminator.

 

 

 

I would like ME:A to focus more on the alien, or 'other' elements. I don't want to see more 'daddy issues', or more 'sexuality issues' coming from the human or rubber fore-headed humans, I want to see a galaxy that doesn't immediately conform to our way of thinking or looking at things.

 

 

EDIT: I swear, sometimes it feels like that scene from Bruce Almighty:

 

Spoiler

 

BioWare only wants to talk about their chili (human issues) while there is an asteroid impact (cool non-human alien) in the background. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

@Vortex13: I wish I could give you more than one like. You deserve all of them. Brilliant post.

[Elhanan]

DAI had some examples of personable Spirits/ Demons apart from Cole: the Divine, the male Pride Demon in The Lion, Solas personal quest, etc; more were also added in JoH.

Unless the Architect survives from DAA, there would not likely be any intelligent Darkspawn; if he had survived, the intelligent ones were going to withdraw to safety.

And the Dragons of DAI displayed more intelligence and versatility than any of the previous drakes, save the Archdemon and Flemeth. The High Dragon of Haven simply had a human PR agent.

[BabyPuncher]

Role-playing freedom, a vastly improved and versatile dialogue wheel with branches based on race and research

 

By that you mean, 'freedom' to decide the vapid and entirely uninteresting response of my choice? There is really not a single line or speech the Inquisitor made that has stuck out with me as powerful or memorable. I had no 'freedom' to make the Inquisitor intelligent or charismatic. 'Freedom' to be a different flavor of dullard does not earn many points with me.

 

balanced morality with vague tonal indicators for where you're headed

 

And what does this even mean, exactly?

 

a villain with an actual interesting motive

 

A villain that has one of worst written climaxes and defeat I've ever come across in fiction.

 

 non-linear and unguided exploration that can yield some fine side-content

 

I continually fail to see how 'non-linear' exploration is supposed to be an inherently better thing than linearity. Generally, I've found that linear games tend to bring the player to far more exciting locations than nonlinear ones. What 'fine side content' is this?

 

stronger crafting and gear customization

 

Crafting systems pretty much always come across to me as a shallow gimmick. I'll take great-looking assets handcrafted by a developer over assets clumsily put together by the player or an algorithm any day of week. Plus, all the delicate balancing issues introduced by such systems that are just about never handled well. Also, I spent the latter half of the game looking out for one sword schematic that wasn't garbage and never found one.

 

unique and varied dungeon designs

 

Where was this? I mostly remember being bored and trying to get through the areas quickly. Redcliffe Castle, the Winter Palace, the dwarf ruins under the Hinterlands...

 

 and those dragon battles.

 

Let me put it to you this way. I killed three dragons and then stopped. Because I just did not care. I do the same thing I always do. Got up close and whacked them with a sword. Not exactly what I'd consider an epic experience.

[dreamgazer]

By that you mean, 'freedom' to decide the vapid and entirely uninteresting response of my choice? There is really not a single line or speech the Inquisitor made that has stuck out with me as powerful or memorable. I had no 'freedom' to make the Inquisitor intelligent or charismatic. 'Freedom' to be a different flavor of dullard does not earn many points with me.

Yes, I mean the freedom to choose a variety of responses that aren't reduced to color-coded, bipolar personalities. Personally, I don't remember choosing any "vapid" or "uninteresting" responses.

Does it matter if lines or speeches are "memorable"? I remember quite a number of lines from Mass Effect, and not because they were, in any way, good.

Can't say either of my Inquisitors were dullards, either, from a ruthless and controlling elven mage to a sympathetic rogue with a checkered past who was swayed by Cassandra's noble resolve. Inquisition allows for that kind of freedom.

Then again, this is a role-playing game, and I know how interested you are in the role-playing process.

In any case, I'm not interested in roleplaying at any level.

 

And what does this even mean, exactly?

Instead of angel wings or a dastardly red star, the tone options fluctuate between confused, stern, aggressive, and others to indicate the direction that your line of dialogue would go. Freedom, both in the number of options and away from bipolar morality.
 

A villain that has one of worst written climaxes and defeat I've ever come across in fiction.

Your subjective viewpoint on the ending has nothing to do with the villain's motive, which is a step above most in both DA and ME universes.

I've also seen far worse climaxes and defeats in fiction. If you haven't, experience more fiction.
 
 

I continually fail to see how 'non-linear' exploration is supposed to be an inherently better thing than linearity. Generally, I've found that linear games tend to bring the player to far more exciting locations than nonlinear ones.

A sense of freedom and discovery. But, again, that factors into Inquisition being a role-playing game.

Wouldn't say the discovered locations in Inquisition were unexciting, either.
 

What 'fine side content' is this?

http://forum.bioware...dai/?p=19346067

Plenty, as already discussed.
 

Crafting systems pretty much always come across to me as a shallow gimmick. I'll take great-looking assets handcrafted by a developer over assets clumsily put together by the player or an algorithm any day of week. Plus, all the delicate balancing issues introduced by such systems that are just about never handled well. Also, I spent the latter half of the game looking out for one sword schematic that wasn't garbage and never found one.

Crafting easily nets you the best gear in the game, depending on the resources you apply to the individual components. And you can make it rather attractive, too, depending on metal and fabric selected. If you view crafting as a "shallow gimmick" and operate on that bias, then that's on you.
 
Why were all your sword schematics garbage? Were you actually switching up your materials, grips, and runes?
 

Where was this? I mostly remember being bored and trying to get through the areas quickly. Redcliffe Castle, the Winter Palace, the dwarf ruins under the Hinterlands...

Why did they bore you? That's an incredibly shallow comment.
 

Let me put it to you this way. I killed three dragons and then stopped. Because I just did not care. I do the same thing I always do. Got up close and whacked them with a sword. Not exactly what I'd consider an epic experience.

I find it surprising that you just walked up to every dragon, regardless of their element and their battle tactics, and just whacked them until they were dead.

I also urge you to take on some of the higher-level dragons, the ones that pose more of a challenge.

At any rate, the gear dropped by the dragons (both material and weapons/armor) tends to be satisfying, too.

[DaemionMoadrin]

You may disagree with most points, but in terms of freedom of dialogue, you have more in DA:I than you did in any Mass Effect game by a wide margin. But then, Dragon Age in general, I feel, provided a lot more versatility in its dialogue than Mass Effect did, which is why going back to ME after playing the DA series for a while can feel kind of confining. Even Hawke, which people love to malign on this forum, was never forced to hold the idiot ball in dialogue like Shepard did. 

 

At some point having three different flavours of saying "no" loses its novelty. Compared to DA:O, BG series or even KotOR it was awful.

 

Freedom of roleplaying? No, that's not in DA:I. You are set on a course and can't deviate from it at all. You can't even be a jerk about it, much less Renegade or evil. Even Hawke, who was a completely fleshed out character from the start, has more variety than your custom tailored Inquisitor.

 

I didn't want to go into detail because it would derail the thread and now BabyPuncher did and... while I usually dislike his posts... this time, he does have a few good points.

[dreamgazer]

Freedom of roleplaying? No, that's not in DA:I. You are set on a course and can't deviate from it at all. You can't even be a jerk about it, much less Renegade or evil. Even Hawke, who was a completely fleshed out character from the start, has more variety than your custom tailored Inquisitor.

Flatly disagree.

Yes, you're on the rails like the Warden and Shepard and Hawke all were, but you can absolutely express differing attitudes about the situation.

[Elhanan]

At some point having three different flavours of saying "no" loses its novelty. Compared to DA:O, BG series or even KotOR it was awful.
 
Freedom of roleplaying? No, that's not in DA:I. You are set on a course and can't deviate from it at all. You can't even be a jerk about it, much less Renegade or evil. Even Hawke, who was a completely fleshed out character from the start, has more variety than your custom tailored Inquisitor.
 
I didn't want to go into detail because it would derail the thread and now BabyPuncher did and... while I usually dislike his posts... this time, he does have a few good points.

DAI appears to be superior to the past ME responses, the latter offering one extreme or the other. And if one chooses either path, it still flows to the same ending. Be it three or more responses for the same effect, options are generally a good thing.

Personally hope that ME:A follows the DAI path, as well as the that experienced in SWTOR.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Flatly disagree.

Yes, you're on the rails like the Warden and Shepard and Hawke all were, but you can absolutely express differing attitudes about the situation.

 

Yes? When? You aren't even in charge!

 

The entire Inquisition is run by your three advisors, you're just their puppet. You do not get to make a single important decision, you do what you're told and if you complain about it, then no one cares. You do not have a choice.

 

Look what you do get to do: Picking new drapes, judging goat throwers and boxes and running around collecting herbs.

 

Show me one situation where you have different choices.

 

 

DAI appears to be superior to the past ME responses, the latter offering one extreme or the other. And if one chooses either path, it still flows to the same ending. Be it three or more responses for the same effect, options are generally a good thing.

Personally hope that ME:A follows the DAI path, as well as the that experienced in SWTOR.

 

Elhanan, didn't you put me on ignore? I was rather happy when I didn't have to interact with you anymore. Did they kick you out of the DA:I forums or what are you doing over here? At least you stopped pretending to be a mod.

 

What kind of relevance has your response to my quote? Did I even mention ME anywhere? I'm comparing DA:I to DA:O, KotOR and BG1/2. Which you're ignoring completely.

 

"if one chooses either path, it still flows to the same ending. Be it three or more responses for the same effect, options are generally a good thing." - No, it is not! Three different flavours of saying no is still just saying no. Where is the yes and the maybe later? Where are the alternative options?

 

Seriously, is this going to continue like before? Are you going to go into every thread, ignore the topic and run ads for BioWare, DA:I and SW:TOR? Are you going to dismiss issues because they don't apply to you? Tell me now so I can mentally prepare myself please.

[pdusen]

Yes? When? You aren't even in charge!

 

The entire Inquisition is run by your three advisors, you're just their puppet. You do not get to make a single important decision, you do what you're told and if you complain about it, then no one cares. You do not have a choice.

 

Look what you do get to do: Picking new drapes, judging goat throwers and boxes and running around collecting herbs.

 

Show me one situation where you have different choices.

 

I'm sorry, what? I'm pretty sure I made so many important decisions at the war table that I can't even remember half of them, but the people they affected sure do. I don't know about you, but I was definitely the one running my inquisition.

[Elhanan]

Yes? When? You aren't even in charge!
 
The entire Inquisition is run by your three advisors, you're just their puppet. You do not get to make a single important decision, you do what you're told and if you complain about it, then no one cares. You do not have a choice.
 
Look what you do get to do: Picking new drapes, judging goat throwers and boxes and running around collecting herbs.
 
Show me one situation where you have different choices.

Have one when selecting any Party, or even including them into the Inquisition. Do I win a cookie? 
 
 

Elhanan, didn't you put me on ignore? I was rather happy when I didn't have to interact with you anymore. Did they kick you out of the DA:I forums or what are you doing over here? At least you stopped pretending to be a mod.
 
What kind of relevance has your response to my quote? Did I even mention ME anywhere? I'm comparing DA:I to DA:O, KotOR and BG1/2. Which you're ignoring completely.
 
"if one chooses either path, it still flows to the same ending. Be it three or more responses for the same effect, options are generally a good thing." - No, it is not! Three different flavours of saying no is still just saying no. Where is the yes and the maybe later? Where are the alternative options?
 
Seriously, is this going to continue like before? Are you going to go into every thread, ignore the topic and run ads for BioWare, DA:I and SW:TOR? Are you going to dismiss issues because they don't apply to you? Tell me now so I can mentally prepare myself please.

* Still on Ignore.

* Tis an ME thread, so am guessing ME dialogue is relevant.

* Those that prefer varied responses to fit their chosen personalities might actually enjoy the choices.

* Topic is on ME:A and DAI; plan to be here often.
 

[DaemionMoadrin]

I'm sorry, what? I'm pretty sure I made so many important decisions at the war table that I can't even remember half of them, but the people they affected sure do. I don't know about you, but I was definitely the one running my inquisition.

 

We're talking about dialogue. Name one decision please.

[dreamgazer]

Yes? When? You aren't even in charge!
 
The entire Inquisition is run by your three advisors, you're just their puppet. You do not get to make a single important decision, you do what you're told and if you complain about it, then no one cares. You do not have a choice.
 
Look what you do get to do: Picking new drapes, judging goat throwers and boxes and running around collecting herbs.
 
Show me one situation where you have different choices.

Not even sure it's worth it if that's your viewpoint, but alright.

Seeing as how you're dismissing the war table choices (complete agency and personality definition) and assuming you'll dismiss the major conflict decisions (again, complete agency and personality definition) and throne-room judgments (MAJOR personality definition and hinged on dialogue), the Inquisitor can also have differing opinions: on dealing with the mark, on religion in general, on being regarded as the "Herald of Andraste", on the qualities that make a good Divine, on the Mages and the necessity of The Circle, on politics and political posturing, on elven folklore, about events like the Orlesian ball, about leniency towards spies, about gender orientation, about renegade groups like the Friends of Red Jenny, about following leaders, about taking another man's identity, and a bunch of others ... including romance.

Seriously, the first image that pops up when you Google "Inquisition dialogue wheel" is a divergent personality definer.

[Feybrad]

We're talking about dialogue. Name one decision please.

 

How to resolve the Situation about who rules Orlais.

[Vortex13]

DAI had some examples of personable Spirits/ Demons apart from Cole: the Divine, the male Pride Demon in The Lion, Solas personal quest, etc; more were also added in JoH.

Unless the Architect survives from DAA, there would not likely be any intelligent Darkspawn; if he had survived, the intelligent ones were going to withdraw to safety.

And the Dragons of DAI displayed more intelligence and versatility than any of the previous drakes, save the Archdemon and Flemeth. The High Dragon of Haven simply had a human PR agent.

 

Even so, the amount of intelligent and personable creatures that you interact with in DA:I is a pale comparison to the variety present in the first game.

 

The spirits/demons aside from Cole mostly involve a one sided conversation and in the case with Solas's quest you don't even know what is said unless you happen to have a handy elven translation guide handy.

 

Regardless of the presence of Awakened; which I believe will have survived the events of the expansion as the Architect's second in command is still quite alive even if the player should kill him; the Darkspawn had a definite lack of character. The player encounters them and then they fight.

 

The High Dragon at Haven was actually very intelligent compared to the ones in DA:I. It would not attack the cultists tending to it's lair, and it would actually allow the men and women to kill a small number of its young in return for feeding and protecting the rest. The High Dragons in the current game just show up and roar a lot; there is no interaction between the beasts and the rest of the world aside from: "I'm a monster. Grr!"

[dragonflight288]

We're talking about dialogue. Name one decision please.

Whether to accept Dorian, Sera, Iron Bull or Cole into the Inquisition, choose to exile Grey Wardens or keep them around, choose who rules Orlais, choose whether to ally or conscript mages/Templars, sit on judgement of criminals...

[Vortex13]

@Vortex13: I wish I could give you more than one like. You deserve all of them. Brilliant post.

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

People can have different takes on a silent vs. a voice protagonist, on having a pre-generated character vs. a fully customized one, on having a more personalized story vs. having a more epic adventure, etc. But there is one area where I think we all can agree that BioWare has slacked in in their subsequent titles, namely the non-human, alien, and/or 'other' elements to their games.

 

 

There is not one development that has been introduced to their existing franchises that has been more 'alien' than the elements shown in the first titles. In fact each game has actually seen a decrease in the amount of non-human elements as each series has gone on.

[Elhanan]

Even so, the amount of intelligent and personable creatures that you interact with in DA:I is a pale comparison to the variety present in the first game.
 
The spirits/demons aside from Cole mostly involve a one sided conversation and in the case with Solas's quest you don't even know what is said unless you happen to have a handy elven translation guide handy.
 
Regardless of the presence of Awakened; which I believe will have survived the events of the expansion as the Architect's second in command is still quite alive even if the player should kill him; the Darkspawn had a definite lack of character. The player encounters them and then they fight.
 
The High Dragon at Haven was actually very intelligent compared to the ones in DA:I. It would not attack the cultists tending to it's lair, and it would actually allow the men and women to kill a small number of its young in return for feeding and protecting the rest. The High Dragons in the current game just show up and roar a lot; there is no interaction between the beasts and the rest of the world aside from: "I'm a monster. Grr!"

Not certain of game size, but DAO was about 70+ hrs for a completionist run with DLC; DAI has been about 250+ hrs even w/o JoH included for myself. And DAI had ten volumes worth of dialogue; a tad more then the previous games.

My first Inq was a Dwarven Rogue, and yet I was deeply affected by the Solas quest; same with a human Mage. Occasionally, emotion can be displayed without the need for a direct translation (eg; foreign films & theater, mimes, etc).

The point is that without an intelligent leader, Darkspawn are generally fodder and flotsam; no such leaders extant in the displayed areas of DAI.

Yes; the High Dragon of DAO was more intelligent than those seen in DA2, but not so much as those using strategy and tactics in DAI. The former could be made to chase their tail until death; the latter called for aid, flew away, lied in wait to ambush the party, etc.

Sometimes a Thresher Maw is only a monster; not the next guest on a panel couch for SDCC.

[pdusen]

We're talking about dialogue. Name one decision please.

 

Okay. I spent the whole game being a religious skeptic. I had the choice.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Okay. I spent the whole game being a religious skeptic. I had the choice.

 

Did that change anything? Did anyone actually react to it? Did it matter to anyone but yourself?

[pdusen]

Did that change anything? Did anyone actually react to it? Did it matter to anyone but yourself?

 

Lots of people reacted to it. Usually their reaction was "Eh, to each their own." I don't really know what kind of impact you'd have expected.

[DaemionMoadrin]

How to resolve the Situation about who rules Orlais.

 

Ok, good example. You're right, that's an actual decision we get to make. It doesn't matter even remotely in the end but perhaps it might change something in the next game.