489 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Maybe... A big maybe (I'm not convinced of this myself, but I've been slowly working on it for years)

 

Maybe we should not be a free society.

 

We've gone Full Plato, have we?

[Draining Dragon]

It is one thing to remove the flag from government buildings. 
 
It is quite another to tear down historical monuments or ban movies from ever being seen. THAT is censorship and it has no place in a free society.

Tell that to the social justice warriors and their magical fee fees.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Is this a good movie about Civil War?

Definately worth watching.

[Cainhurst Crow]

 

The years of tension leading up the secession of the Confederate states was likewise driven by the issue of slavery. The fight was about whether to introduce new states to the Union as free or slave, and both camps knew it determined the balance of power. That is why the election of Lincoln caused the Southern planters to panic and overreact. The Republican Party at that time was the abolitionist party, and Lincoln was the first Republican to be elected president. The planters feared the election of a 'Black Republican' would mean that the party would succeed in blocking western territories from being added as slave states, irrevocably shifting the balance of power away from slave states and spelling the end to the institution of slavery. They feared a clear a majority of free states.

 

Atlanta's destruction has been as exaggerated over the years as Sherman's March to the Sea. Civilian casualties during both were relatively light. The howling of Neo-Confederates over Atlanta's destruction is also a bit hypocritical, considering a Confederate army had previously burned Chambersburg, Pennsylvania.

 

Lee's army also had abducted and enslaved blacks, including men and women who were born free, during the Gettysburg campaign.

 

As for the wanton killing of prisoners...there was one army guilty of this on a large scale during the American Civil War, and it wasn't Sherman's army. That would be the Army of Nathan Bedford Forrest, at Fort Pillow. Over 300 USCT (United States Colored Troops) and their white officers were massacred by Confederate soldiers, after they had surrendered.

 

You've proved both sides were awful. Something nobody I think disputed.

 

This is getting nowhere though. And all we're doing is making a round track with all the circles we keep going in.

 

I say the North was bad, and the South was awful, and that we shouldn't remove symbols with historical significance even if that significance is a reminder of how bad things used to be.

 

Can we even come to a compromise on that point at least?

[Jehuty]

I sometimes think we have been given too much freedom. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Tell that to the social justice warriors and their magical fee fees.

I thought I just did?

[Inquisitor Recon]

I thought I just did?

Their feelings come first though, why did you fail to tag your post with a trigger warning? Cisscum.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Finally happened folks. Didn't think it would, but it did.

 

"We need to put the American Flag down" - Louis Farrakhan, 2015: http://www.ajc.com/n...lag-down/nmknZ/

 

And don't even get me started on the black panther bullshit they're trying to push. Nothing says respect for the victims of a shooting, then using them to call for mass killings: http://www.examiner....l-slave-masters

[Jehuty]

We should all be deaf, dumb and blind. What are you going to do, start a war because someone bumped into you? 

 

People are too easily offended. 

[SmilesJA]

We should all be deaf, dumb and blind. What are you going to do, start a war because someone bumped into you? 

 

People are too easily offended. 

 

Sadly we may be heading towards a future like that......

[Billy-the-Squid]

Godwin as an argument (even if it's not Hitler) doesn't make a stronger argument. Why compare me to Pol Pot?

 

The stupidity of your argument does not make your point any stronger, resulting in flippant answers, and while I don't suggest you enact your very own killing fields of Cambodia. 

 

I'm sure Pol Pot had the same idea you have when he migrated tens of thousands with capitalist ideas to the killing fields, before burying them alive. They weren't entitled to hold capitalist ideologies, teachers and western educated intelligentsia were considered threats.

 

If you want a less obvious example, we'll just go to Hong Kong where the Communist party is currently suppressing protests over democratic elections in the city, because people there aren't entitled to want that in China.

 

Frankly, after the dense post you made I don't think you should entitled to express yourself because you're being stupid. Luckily, that's not my call to make.The whole point of freedom of speech is meritocratic, those with merit weather the criticism, those without it don't. 

 

It's the same behaviour that the worst of the perpetual victims and politically correct push with their "safe space" either liberty to speak your mind is allowed or it isn't, no half measures. 

[frankf43]

But the war between Dixies and Yankees was like the war between Yellow Roses and White Roses in England.

Dude the yellow rose is Texas. The red rose is the house  Lancashire and the white rose is the house of Yorkshire who the war of the roses was between.  

[SlottsMachine]

We should all be deaf, dumb and blind. 

 

Well as long as we can play a mean Pinball.

[Dermain]

*snip*
The Civil War was absolutely primarily about slavery. The southern states were afraid Lincoln would move against slavery after he was elected. Many of the Confederate States cited their desire to keep slaves when they seceded, as has previously been shown in this thread. The Confederate Constitution ensures slavery will continue. To deny this is to perpetuate the Lost Cause narrative.

 

It's been perpetuated for years in the public/private school system in some parts of this country.

 

No doubt Sherman's March to the Sea was unpleasant for anyone caught in its path, but Attila the Hun, he was not

 

Sherman has been demonized (fairly or unfairly), and it is a very common opinion in the South.

 

Sadly we may be heading towards a future like that......

 

I blame the internet.

[X Equestris]

It's been perpetuated for years in the public/private school system in some parts of this country.
 

 
Sherman has been demonized (fairly or unfairly), and it is a very common opinion in the South.
 

 
I blame the internet.

I'm well aware the Lost Cause narrative was taught for decades in schools. In fact, it's probably a major reason why some people are still so sore about the Civil War. Fortunately, it isn't really taught much anymore.

[This_Punk86]

With cover art like this, how could one remove such a MASTER rac...i mean piece 

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm well aware the Lost Cause narrative was taught for decades in schools. In fact, it's probably a major reason why some people are still so sore about the Civil War. Fortunately, it isn't really taught much anymore.

 

I think we should teach both narratives in all regions of the US in my own opinion. It's clear that neither narrative is completely accurate. And both try to make themselves seem like heroes and their adversaries inhuman monsters. It's also obviously not done much to resolve the tensions between the two sides, as the south still views the north as elitist and the south still seen as moronic. If it doesn't work with either half, maybe combining the two instead of just eradicating one from the face of the earth would be best.

 

Or maybe the thought of "re-education" and "correcting the narrative" rubs me the wrong way. I've seen the worst of that sort of thing and the effect it has, and I can't think it'd be any good to try and fix problems by teaching people that they suck and should be grateful they're even allowed to live.

[X Equestris]

I think we should teach both narratives in all regions of the US in my own opinion. It's clear that neither narrative is completely accurate. And both try to make themselves seem like heroes and their adversaries inhuman monsters. It's also obviously not done much to resolve the tensions between the two sides, as the south still views the north as elitist and the south still seen as moronic. If it doesn't work with either half, maybe combining the two instead of just eradicating one from the face of the earth would be best.
 
Or maybe the thought of "re-education" and "correcting the narrative" rubs me the wrong way. I've seen the worst of that sort of thing and the effect it has, and I can't think it'd be any good to try and fix problems by teaching people that they suck and should be grateful they're even allowed to live.

The Lost Cause narrative is complete bunk. It creates an idealized version of the South that never existed. All the slaves are happy, there are no abuses, etc. until the evil North, led by the tyrant Lincoln, comes along and ruins everything. The South's soldiers and generals are always brave and chivalrous, while the Union's are cogs in a vast industrial machine intent on destroying the Southern way of life. That is the myth of the Lost Cause, and it has no place in education, except to point out how the South consoled itself after the war. The whole idea is built upon racism, as you can see in things like The Birth of a Nation.

[Obadiah]

I'm just glad there is a mass recognition of the actual history and use of the confederate flag. If people want to keep using the flag then they need to come to terms with what it means, and not just defiantly ignore certain uncomfortable histories.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The Lost Cause narrative is complete bunk. It creates an idealized version of the South that never existed. All the slaves are happy, there are no abuses, etc. until the evil North, led by the tyrant Lincoln, comes along and ruins everything. The South's soldiers and generals are always brave and chivalrous, while the Union's are cogs in a vast industrial machine intent on destroying the Southern way of life. That is the myth of the Lost Cause, and it has no place in education, except to point out how the South consoled itself after the war. The whole idea is built upon racism, as you can see in things like The Birth of a Nation.

 

Maybe this was a Hawaii thing, or a public education thing, but I was pretty much taught that, but with the sides flipped. But that is how its presented today. Everyone in the south owned slaves. Everyone in the south wanted to enslave all of the north plus canada and mexico. The north only wanted to free slaves and nothing else, and instantly emancipated all of the united states, and it was only because of the evil south that they didn't get equal rights instantly. Racism never existed in the north and was purely a southern construct. If you see someone from the south, never trust them because they may secretly want to reinstate slavery ((This was actual words that came from my 8th grade teachers mouth. Then again he also tried to get us to join the Sovereign Hawaii movement as well, so he might have been a bit of an extremist)).

 

It took independent research in order to find out that things weren't just black and white in the civil war. Though I'm probably just being butthurt about the whole thing, and distrustful of so many people with alternative political agendas coming together to make this an issue, instead of focusing on Dylan Roof as a racist shooter. If we can blame a flag for a racist shooting, what stops the next shooting from getting blamed on an inanimate object and said object getting removed from access everywhere?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Dude the yellow rose is Texas. The red rose is the house  Lancashire and the white rose is the house of Yorkshire who the war of the roses was between.  

 

Careless writing... when what you think is different than what you write.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Finally happened folks. Didn't think it would, but it did.

 

"We need to put the American Flag down" - Louis Farrakhan, 2015: http://www.ajc.com/n...lag-down/nmknZ/

 

And don't even get me started on the black panther bullshit they're trying to push. Nothing says respect for the victims of a shooting, then using them to call for mass killings: http://www.examiner....l-slave-masters

 

Inb4 superhero comic and movie called "Black Panther" that it's about wiping out stars from that misogynist racist white-supremacist flag.

[Killdren88]

While I understand the reasoning, doesn't this set a president? Will say a WW2 movie or game not be allowed to show the Swastika now?

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I think we should teach both narratives in all regions of the US in my own opinion. It's clear that neither narrative is completely accurate. And both try to make themselves seem like heroes and their adversaries inhuman monsters. It's also obviously not done much to resolve the tensions between the two sides, as the south still views the north as elitist and the south still seen as moronic. If it doesn't work with either half, maybe combining the two instead of just eradicating one from the face of the earth would be best.

 

Or maybe the thought of "re-education" and "correcting the narrative" rubs me the wrong way. I've seen the worst of that sort of thing and the effect it has, and I can't think it'd be any good to try and fix problems by teaching people that they suck and should be grateful they're even allowed to live.

 

In I.R.Iran's high school history books, 90% of monarchies and kings described as cruel, ignorant, weak. But at least I know 30%-40% of them were capable of ruling, and weren't morons or oppressors.