489 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lol America

 

Meanwhile in Iraq...

 

 

lolno

[God]

Both liberal and conservative America are jokes.

 

Libertarian master race

 

Lol no.

 

Socialists for America.

[leighzard]

Dude the yellow rose is Texas. The red rose is the house  Lancashire and the white rose is the house of Yorkshire who the war of the roses was between.  

 

 

The Lost Cause narrative is complete bunk. It creates an idealized version of the South that never existed. All the slaves are happy, there are no abuses, etc. until the evil North, led by the tyrant Lincoln, comes along and ruins everything. The South's soldiers and generals are always brave and chivalrous, while the Union's are cogs in a vast industrial machine intent on destroying the Southern way of life. That is the myth of the Lost Cause, and it has no place in education, except to point out how the South consoled itself after the war. The whole idea is built upon racism, as you can see in things like The Birth of a Nation.

I'm Southern.  My history classes weren't exactly Lost Cause, but I will say that I learned about the Civil War a little bit differently than my Northern peers.  I didn't even realize it until I got to college. Nothing outrageous, like the above, but I think the subtle differences in what I was taught are actually more subversive, because on the surface it sounds reasonable.  So you learn this version of history that has inherent bias and you don't know any better.  Things like the war was about states' rights instead of slavery.  Sure it was over states' rights (to hold slaves).  It's almost like the teachers cleansed the parts of Civil War that made the South look less than appealing from history so we can talk about it and still maintain our cultural dignity.  It can still be a touchy subject around here.  I think the misinformation, or rather, recasting of fact is pretty pervasive.  I actually really don't like talking about it.  And this is just my experience (I don't claim to speak for all of the South, or even all of my state), but I got pretty much the same version in my 8th grade American History class at a private school and then again in 11th grade AP US history at my public high school.

[Fast Jimmy]

I'm Southern. My history classes weren't exactly Lost Cause, but I will say that I learned about the Civil War a little bit differently than my Northern peers. I didn't even realize it until I got to college. Nothing outrageous, like the above, but I think the subtle differences in what I was taught are actually more subversive, because on the surface it sounds reasonable. So you learn this version of history that has inherent bias and you don't know any better. Things like the war was about states' rights instead of slavery. Sure it was over states' rights (to hold slaves). It's almost like the teachers cleansed the parts of Civil War that made the South look less than appealing from history so we can talk about it and still maintain our cultural dignity. It can still be a touchy subject around here. I think the misinformation, or rather, recasting of fact is pretty pervasive. I actually really don't like talking about it. And this is just my experience (I don't claim to speak for all of the South, or even all of my state), but I got pretty much the same version in my 8th grade American History class at a private school and then again in 11th grade AP US history at my public high school.

I can sympathize with this... except this story also made its way into my freshman year of college history classes as well (university was also in the South). States rights being the focus, with slavery as just the p!ssing ground over that issue that set everything off (instead of the reverse, which can be seen by the various documents posted in this thread). It wasn't until I reached a 300 level history class in college that the idea that the war was 100% about slavery really came across my plate. Yes, slavery was tied to the economy in huge ways that would wreck the infrastructure of the South in irrevocable ways of it was abolished overnight (I've heard worse reasons to go to war), but that doesn't mean that the right to owns slaves wasn't the prime issue at hand, regardless of justification for it.

[leighzard]

Jesus.  I just read the wikipedia article on the Lost Cause of the Confederacy and I'm actually seeing a lot more of my education in there than I realized.  It's pretty frightening.  I mean, I knew a lot of what I learned had come from a Southern perspective, but I had no idea that so much of it was part of a real agenda.  I never got around to taking a Civil War history class at college (in Massachussetts) most of my realizations about this have come through talking with friends.  I think I maybe did myself a disservice.  I really thought that I was pretty enlightened about the flaws in my education.  I wonder how much other stuff I think I know is wrong.

 

I've been avoiding this thread for a couple of days, too, because I thought it would be an uncomfortable subject.  I guess I'm glad I finally sacked up.  It's been a fairly eye-opening journey of self-enlightenment the last half hour or so.

 

Well... I've had enough uncomfortable self reflection for today.  I'm gonna go to the gym and watch an episode of Orange Is the New Black to try to rid myself of this icky feeling.

[Voxr]

To be somewhat fair, the south isn't alone in whitewashing history in K-12 public education. We don't talk about indian killer Andrew Jackson or how backwards racist the north also was despite trying to appease the politically semi-fringe abolitionist movement (kinda like a tea party except not terrible). We just selectively don't whitewash how massively in the wrong both morally and military the south was.

I did at least. Sort of. I went to highschool in Oklahoma and took an OK History class, obviously the Trail of Tears is a significant part in the state's history. I don't remember much from the actual curriculum per say, but our teacher was pretty frank about Andrew Jackson and his massacres. I can't speak for other schools in the state or nation either. Having going to school in multiple states the US is pretty weird about our history. Which is why in the 8th grade and on I pretty much studied history at the public library or through various resources on the web rather than in a class room. 

 

 

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As far as the original post: I think it's dumb, but hey Apple can do what they want. They're a private entity and if they don't want the Confederate flag used in products on their platform, so be it. 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Wikipedia is as neutral as Portugal and Sweden in World Wars. I like it.

[Heimdall]

The college courses I took on the subject made clear that you can't really separate slavery and states rights in terms of what motivated the southern states to secede. It wasn't either or and it wasn't just about how critical slaves were to the cotton industry.

[Cainhurst Crow]

All these southern taught people here. Meanwhile here I am, with my education about how the north never discriminated. Thst it went slavery, then jim crow, then civil rights movements, and there was only racism in the south. Had to take a modern history college course to find out how much discrimination there was in the whole system, even during the world wars.

[Torgette]

If it's about education or history then use the actual Confederate flag, the Battle flag was created by a white supremacist, there's not much wiggle room here for spinning.

[Majestic Jazz]

Then go to Germany and stay there if that's the kind of society you wish to live in. I prefer living in a country where freedom of expression is celebrated.

 

So then technically isn't Apple exercising their freedom of "expression" by choosing not to sell games with the Confederate Flag?

 

I mean, how does Apple or some other retailer choosing not to sell the flag hurt you in any way?

 

Your argument goes both ways, not just one way. 

[Quarian Master Race]

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=32103721

goddamnit Wal Mart you suck

[Majestic Jazz]

The college courses I took on the subject made clear that you can't really separate slavery and states rights in terms of what motivated the southern states to secede. It wasn't either or and it wasn't just about how critical slaves were to the cotton industry.

 

Well that may be true but how people will look back on it is that because the South lost, African-American slaves were free. Imagine, do you think the slaves would have been free had the Civil War never occurred? Do you think the South would have just up and said, "You know what, our way of economics is wrong so we need to abolish slavery!" Do you think that would have happened in the 1800s without pressure from the Abolitionist? 

[Fast Jimmy]

Well that may be true but how people will look back on it is that because the South lost, African-American slaves were free. Imagine, do you think the slaves would have been free had the Civil War never occurred? Do you think the South would have just up and said, "You know what, our way of economics is wrong so we need to abolish slavery!" Do you think that would have happened in the 1800s without pressure from the Abolitionist?

Considering the entire country continued to be built on (nearly - or often entirely- criminal) cheap immigrant labor from the Irish, the Native Americans, the Asians and the Hispanics in the decades and century following the Emancipation Proclamation, I'd say no.

America has always been a country that takes your tired, your poor, your huddled masses... and works them until they are even more tired and poor, huddling masses in a ever-sprawling nation in constant need of nearly-free labor.

[Majestic Jazz]

Considering the entire country continued to be built on (nearly - or often entirely- criminal) cheap immigrant labor from the Irish, the Native Americans, the Asians and the Hispanics in the decades and century following the Emancipation Proclamation, I'd say no.

America has always been a country that takes your tired, your poor, your huddled masses... and works them until they are even more tired and poor, huddling masses in a ever-sprawling nation in constant need of nearly-free labor.

 

Idk, I guess as an African-America I look at the Civil War differently than someone else who isn't black. Okay, if matters so much to the person, the okay, yeah....the Civil War was not about Slavery and instead about state's rights. Okay, I will give them that. However, that still does not kill the fact that as a result of the Civil War, African-Americans ending up earning their freedom.  So while the official reason behind the south breaking away from the Union was about "states rights", the actual result of it was the south losing their slaves.

 

As an African-American who had male ancestors that were treated less than human and female ancestors that were raped and treated less than human by wealthy southern whites, it is kind hard for me to have sympathy for the Confederacy. Its like when someone says "Lincoln only signed the anticipation proclamation to use blacks to fight against the south....not because of alturism." Who cares! At the end of the day, it was Lincoln's signature on that document, not Jefferson Davis.

 

So yeah, from a literal perspective, the Civil War wasn't fought over Slavery and Lincoln did not free the slaves out of a kind heart. However that does not take away the notion that my ancestors became free as a RESULT of the South breaking away and with Lincoln's signature. You can argue the details all you want but the results are the results. 

[Althix]

hmmm... what about reenactments? Gettysburg?

 

also... Nascar? i am also aware of some military units using confederate flag.

[Fast Jimmy]

Idk, I guess as an African-America I look at the Civil War differently than someone else who isn't black. Okay, if matters so much to the person, the okay, yeah....the Civil War was not about Slavery and instead about state's rights. Okay, I will give them that. However, that still does not kill the fact that as a result of the Civil War, African-Americans ending up earning their freedom. So while the official reason behind the south breaking away from the Union was about "states rights", the actual result of it was the south losing their slaves.

As an African-American who had male ancestors that were treated less than human and female ancestors that were raped and treated less than human by wealthy southern whites, it is kind hard for me to have sympathy for the Confederacy. Its like when someone says "Lincoln only signed the anticipation proclamation to use blacks to fight against the south....not because of alturism." Who cares! At the end of the day, it was Lincoln's signature on that document, not Jefferson Davis.

So yeah, from a literal perspective, the Civil War wasn't fought over Slavery and Lincoln did not free the slaves out of a kind heart. However that does not take away the notion that my ancestors became free as a RESULT of the South breaking away and with Lincoln's signature. You can argue the details all you want but the results are the results.

I think you may have misinterpreted my response.

I agreed with you - slavery wouldn't have ended without the Abolitionist's efforts and without the Union forcing the South to abandon slavery. The reason why I think this is because as soon as the slaves were free, the U.S. found other ethnicities to work for dirt the second the ink dried on the Emancipation Proclamation. America has always been addicted to cheap labor of immigrants and others - slavery would have continued into today possibly (since there is a lesser nature of de facto slavery with undocumented illegal workers).

[Majestic Jazz]

hmmm... what about reenactments? Gettysburg?

 

also... Nascar? i am also aware of some military units using confederate flag.

 

I am in the US Army and I am not aware of any Unit that uses the Confederate flag. EVERY service member of ALL branches of the United States Military wears the AMERICAN flag on their right shoulder in uniform. 

[Majestic Jazz]

I think you may have misinterpreted my response.

I agreed with you - slavery wouldn't have ended without the Abolitionist's efforts and without the Union forcing the South abandoning slavery. The reason why I think this is because as soon as the slaves were free, the U.S. found other ethnicities to work for dirt the second the ink dried on the Emancipation Proclamation. America has always been addicted to cheap labor of immigrants and others - slavery would have continued into today possibly (since there is a lesser nature of de facto slavery with undocumented illegal workers).

 

Oh no my reply wasn't directed towards you, it was directed towards people who say that the Civil War wasn't about Slavery. Sorry if it sounded like I was hashing you out. 

[Althix]

I am in the US Army and I am not aware of any Unit that uses the Confederate flag. EVERY service member of ALL branches of the United States Military wears the AMERICAN flag on their right shoulder in uniform. 

i am pretty sure i saw it on the hood of the humvee.

[Fast Jimmy]

Oh no my reply wasn't directed towards you, it was directed towards people who say that the Civil War wasn't about Slavery. Sorry if it sounded like I was hashing you out.

Oh, no worries.

[Fast Jimmy]

i am pretty sure i saw it on the hood of the humwee.

Well, there's also naked chicks painted on warplanes. I don't think that means the US military condones nude modeling.

[Althix]

Well, there's also naked chicks painted on warplanes. I don't think that means the US military condones nude modeling.

not the point. my point is - confederate flag is a part if not culture, but history of the US. Kinda strange to ban it, now.

 

btw - i am pretty sure some states have confederate flag in some form as  a part of the flag of the state.

[Fast Jimmy]

not the point. my point is - confederate flag is a part if not culture, but history of the US. Kinda strange to ban it, now.

btw - i am pretty sure some states have confederate flag in some form as a part of the flag of the state.

Edit: Well, I take that back. Apparently Mississippi adopted the "Stars and Bars" or "The White Man's Flag" (named by its designer) in 2001.

Stay classy, Mississippi.