489 réponses à ce sujet

[Riven326]

Apple is a business not a government entity it doesn't owe you a damn thing. If you don't like it don't buy from them. Money talks not ideals when it comes to business.

I was speaking from the developer's perspective. To be told that your game is going to be removed from the store because Apple all of a sudden finds something in it offensive, and that the only way for the game to be allowed back on to the store is for the developer to change something about it, is really screwed up. It also makes Apple look foolish and prone to knee jerk reactions.

[X Equestris]

They're not that far apart. One was founded in defence of a reprehensible institution that was a clear crime against humanity and obvious genocide. The other was founded to perpetrate crimes against humanity and orchestrated a genocide. The difference is basically one of degree.

For decades, slavery was legal in the United States. Institutionalized racism lasted even longer. It was the American flag flying when thousands of Native American were forcibly relocated from their lands. Same with the illegal internment of Japanese-Americans (and some of the more recent German and Italian immigrants, though in much, much smaller numbers). Plenty of other countries have similarly poor track records. Yet flying their flags isn't taboo.

[Inquisitor Recon]

If that isn't sarcasm... I... just... my brain hurts from your comment

Everybody must be judged by the same 21et century standards. Look how the ancient Romans ignored the Geneva convention. Terrible. Italy must be punished for this. Ban everything that reminds people of history. All of human history is so terrible, it must be banned for the greater good. Else nobody will learn to respect muh feelings.

[General TSAR]

Riven, I don't think this thread was such a good idea.

[X Equestris]

Do you think it's remotely defensible to say that someone wants to fly the Nazi flag because they had ancestors in the Wehrmacht? Or the USSRs hammer and sickle because they had ancestors in the red army?
It's just idiotic to say you're going to fly a universal symbol of racism to honour your ancestors. Pick a non racist way to do it. While I think flying the flag is protected as free expression, it absolutely makes the person an idiot and rightly creates the impression they're a racist.

I'm not saying it's defensible. I'm just listing the reasons. But if you didn't know, Soviet flags are still quite common in Russia.

I agree that while they have the right to fly it, it makes the person look like an idiot and/or a racist. But I'd prefer it out in the open to driving them underground.

[Draining Dragon]

For decades, slavery was legal in the United States. Institutionalized racism lasted even longer. It was the American flag flying when thousands of Native American were forcibly relocated from their lands. Same with the illegal internment of Japanese-Americans (and some of the more recent German and Italian immigrants, though in much, much smaller numbers). Plenty of other countries have similarly poor track records. Yet flying their flags isn't taboo.

You know, a couple nut jobs have actually suggested that we take down the stars and stripes because they represent racism. I'm pretty sure that line of reasoning constitutes an association fallacy, but logic doesn't matter to SJWs.

[Fast Jimmy]

I, personally, think the Confederate Flag is a sign of ignorant racists who need to take a history lesson.


That being said, censoring or banning them is idiotic. You ban what you fear. And you deny freedoms when you wish to rule with terror or intimidation.

Let the ignorant be drug out into the light for the racist bigots they are. Heck, seeing pickups with Confereate flag bumper stickers is practically this:

[X Equestris]

You know, a couple nut jobs have actually suggested that we take down the stars and stripes because they represent racism. I'm pretty sure that line of reasoning constitutes an association fallacy, but logic doesn't matter to SJWs.

Yeah, I've seen a few people like that. Honestly, we should just leave the past in the past.

[In Exile]

For decades, slavery was legal in the United States. Institutionalized racism lasted even longer. It was the American flag flying when thousands of Native American were forcibly relocated from their lands. Same with the illegal internment of Japanese-Americans (and some of the more recent German and Italian immigrants, though in much, much smaller numbers). Plenty of other countries have similarly poor track records. Yet flying their flags isn't taboo.

The fact that the US Flag is (or isn't) a symbol of racism has nothing to do with whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of racist. Each confederate state was founded on the idea of owning other human beings. Specifically. Their declarations of independence extoll their virtue of owning people. Another poster said that Nazi Germany wasn't formally founded for the purpose of racism. Well, the Confederate States were.

[TheChosenOne]

* looks at thread's title *
* looks inside thread *

:/ Sometimes I worry about humanity...

[Riven326]

Riven, I don't think this thread was such a good idea.

I can't be held responsible for predicting the outcomes of these threads. In the OP, I wasn't comparing the Confederacy to the Third Reich. I was suggesting how Apple would react if the tables were turned. Now everyone is busy measuring the Third Reich's atrocities against the Confederacy's. Which, I have to admit, is new to me and somewhat impressive even for the internet, but not really relevant to the topic.

[In Exile]

If that isn't sarcasm... I... just... my brain hurts from your comment

Why wouldn't we condem ancient peoples for their barbaric acts? I'm not particularly persuaded by that branch of moral relativism.

[goofyomnivore]

I was speaking from the developer's perspective. To be told that your game is going to be removed from the store because Apple all of a sudden finds something in it offensive, and that the only way for the game to be allowed back on to the store is for the developer to change something about it, is really screwed up. It also makes Apple look foolish and prone to knee jerk reactions.

I think it is foolish to expect a multi billion dollar company to accommodate a niche developer instead of maximizing profits.

[Draining Dragon]

The fact that the US Flag is (or isn't) a symbol of racism has nothing to do with whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of racist. Each confederate state was founded on the idea of owning other human beings. Specifically. Their declarations of independence extoll their virtue of owning people. Another poster said that Nazi Germany wasn't formally founded for the purpose of racism. Well, the Confederate States were.

Are you sure they were individually founded on it? I thought they just used it as a excuse to secede and form the Confederacy.

[Riven326]

Sales of the confederate flag shot up something like 2000% after that incident.

It's doing just fine in the sectors in which it thrives, evidently. Despite the supposed 'censorship' (which really, removing it from government property, and refusing to sell it do not qualify).

A store refusing to sell it anymore does not qualify as censorship, I agree. But what Apple is doing does quality and is censorship.

[goofyomnivore]

A store refusing to sell it anymore does not qualify as censorship, I agree. But what Apple is doing does quality and is censorship.

Apple has the right to censor what is traded on its digital medium. No one is forced to buy, sell, or develop there.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

I think authentically the Confederation flag is very artistic. Also the Swastika is an Jain Indian Sign which also authentically has much integrity in it.

 

* looks at thread's title *
* looks inside thread *

:/ Sometimes I worry about humanity...

 

[X Equestris]

The fact that the US Flag is (or isn't) a symbol of racism has nothing to do with whether the Confederate flag is a symbol of racist. Each confederate state was founded on the idea of owning other human beings. Specifically. Their declarations of independence extoll their virtue of owning people. Another poster said that Nazi Germany wasn't formally founded for the purpose of racism. Well, the Confederate States were.

It does, yes. The Confederacy also attempted to frame their Declaration of Independence and the conflict as a struggle against a tyrannical government and northern invaders, since slavery really wasn't something a lot of common Southerners cared about.

Edit: And this is where you get the heritage and pride arguments from. A lot of people at the time bought that rhetoric hook, line, and sinker. That was further reinforced by by the Lost Cause narrative the education system taught for decades.

[Riven326]

Apple has the right to censor what is traded on its digital medium. No one is forced to buy, sell, or develop there.

*Sigh*

 

I know. We've already established that. Them having the right to take a game down for reasons X or Y does not negate the fact that it is still censorship. This is especially true for games using the flag in a historical context.

 

The game Hatred is another example of a game that was censored initially by Steam, and then Valve reversed that decision. That's the trouble you run into when you start censoring things. Soon you're up to your eyeballs in content that must be censored because people will always find something offensive and demand it be censored. It's a slippery slope.

[Heimdall]

@In Exile

 

I know that you're an intelligent person, but you clearly don't know a great deal about the American Civil War.  As a history major who has studied the period, boiling down the motivations behind the founding of the Confederacy to a desire to perpetuate racism is extremely simplistic.  (And besides, at the time racism in the northern "free" states tended to be much more vicious than it did in the south, ironicly)

[Inquisitor Recon]

I think it is foolish to expect a multi billion dollar company to accommodate a niche developer instead of maximizing profits.

It's foolish for a multi billion dollar company to accommodate overly sensitive morons who will get outraged at a Confederate flag in games BASED ON THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR.

[Cunning Villain]

I, personally, think the Confederate Flag is a sign of ignorant racists who need to take a history lesson.

 

 

I, personally, think you need to take a history lesson if you believe the American Civil War is as black and white as you make it out to be.

[Cunning Villain]

It's foolish for a multi billion dollar company to accommodate overly sensitive morons who will get outraged at a Confederate flag in games BASED ON THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR.

 

I'm getting Resident Evil 5 flashbacks.

[In Exile]

Are you sure they were individually founded on it? I thought they just used it as a excuse to secede and form the Confederacy.

Yes. I'm on my phone so copying and pasting is hard but check out the Mississippi declaration:


"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."

This is crazy racist and clearly pro-slavery. It was the issue of states rights that drove the secession but it was about their right to impose slavery on a state by state basis without federal interference.