2291 réponses à ce sujet

[ebuchala]

I have not seen the Dorian nude scene, but I have seen the Cassandra one.  ANd really, the only thing it adds to the dialogue is nipples.  She could have been wearing a sheet, a robe, or even be fully dressed (or even clever camera angles), and it wouldn't have changed the scene.  It could have been done bring one of the make-out sessions above the smithy, and it would have been just as impactful to me.

 

Also, you can decline sex with Leliana in DAO.  She may be worldly, but she's also pretty considerate

 

Why, oh, why does not wanting to watch a nude scene ALWAYS SEEM TO COME BACK TO "You just want underwear sex to return"?  Seriously, Why?  It's really getting frustrating.  It's like talking to a wall.

 

Again, it's NOT ABOUT SHAME!!!! It's about CHOICES!!!

 

I do think that Bull, Sera and Leliana would probably be just fine if someone declined sex, though I'm not sure Bull and Sera would have continued the relationship for long without it. However, I was under the impression that you wanted the implication of sex without the nudity and, to me, with characters like Bull and Leliana, that would come off looking out of character. For me, it's about the context and characters. If the context is that society isn't uptight about sex and the characters aren't uptight about sex then the sex scene should reflect that and nudity in some form should be included. That does not mean that I think they shouldn't have characters who can have a more ambiguous romance or one that is more chaste. But to create a character who is obviously very comfortable with their sexuality and then show them clothed in scenes where they normally wouldn't be is awkward and immersion breaking.

 

Likewise with context, if the development or context for a particular character would benefit cinematically (for lack of a better word) or story/character development-wise from a certain scene showing nudity, then I want to see it that way. For me, that was the case with Dorian's romance.  It wasn't the nudity itself that made the scene for me, it was the implication or representation of what the nudity meant--in his case, of being fully exposed before someone, completely open to them. To me, the difference between his clothed version and his nude version is pretty big. The clothed version shows something sweet, the hope for something more. The nude version shows his vulnerability and his trust in Inky. This isn't just a hope for something more, it's a commitment to see it through because they're both there, exposed and vulnerable in their own ways.

 

I didn't say anyone wanted underwear sex to return. But let's face it, for the option you want, BW has handled it in pretty limited ways, underwear sex being one of them. It's cringeworthy and was just an example. Personally, I'm all for options but, as someone up thread shared, I frankly don't want those options to step all over developing the mature romance scenes that I've come to expect in a game like ME. For instance, the way they handled Dorian's scene so you can have a no sex or a sex option--fine because it caters to both preferences. Adding in a character who's romance is ambiguous or chaste--great, as long as they don't do this with all the characters. Making a character like Bull and then only including romantic dialogue in the clothed scenes or not showing any nudity--doesn't work for me.

 

While I agree with Han that all cut scenes should be skippable, I don't want them to dissect dialogue from a nude scene and put it in a clothed scene if it makes more sense or has more impact in the nude scene. The Dorian dialogue is almost the same, nude or clothed. The animations are different and I think even the facial animations are a little different, though that just might be my bias. If they had shown the nude scene without that dialogue and then tagged that on as an after scene with them clothed (i.e., shown the nude scene and then skipped to the same clothed version they used for the no-sex Dorian), it would have been ridiculous, looked terrible, and made no sense.

 

As far as the shame thing goes, I wasn't trying to imply or say that you or anyone who doesn't want nude scenes is ashamed so I apologize if that's how it sounded. What I was trying to say is if the context or setting isn't uptight about sex or the character has a sexual nature in some way, showing a romance scene without nudity makes the game/developers seem to be implying we should be ashamed of wanting to see the nudity. Because it doesn't fit the context.

[ebuchala]

I rather like the alternative version of the romance scene that occur if you select the option "Can we slow things down?": Dorian is so taken back at the idea that the Inquisitor wants a relationship with him because that is so at odds with how he is most familiar with relationships: namely, that there is not one. He is baffled to learn that Inquisitor were treating this as a relationship in the making and were approaching him like courtship, not only as a lover. The scene has plenty of impact and display a vulnerable side to Dorian that does not need nudity to be shown, in my opinion.

 

*snipped scene dialogue*

 

It's why I am hoping for more of such scenes in not only the Mass Effect series but also the Dragon Age series because it allows a "Not now" option for some romances while providing an option for characterization and insight.
 

 

It's a sweet scene, no doubt. I'll direct you to my response to Iakus, though, since I address my opinions on both scenes. I think either scene works and, to be honest, if all I had been offered were the non-sex version of Dorian's romance, I would've enjoyed it, though I would have been disappointed that we didn't get a "culmination" scene, as it were. But, as mentioned before, I'm all for options for people, as long as BW doesn't spend so much time on options that nothing can be fully fleshed out (no pun intended...well, maybe a small one).

 

 

 

As a note: If there are multiples cultures and various attitudes about sex then it stands to reason that there would be different stances on sex. Said cultural opinions and attitudes towards it may not necessarily stem from prudity.
 

 

This is a good point and I apologize for limiting my response to that term--I was using it for brevity's sake and because I couldn't think of other ways of describing this. I do have a tendency to write lengthy responses.

 

The point is that the overall society in ME is pretty uncensored, in regards to sex. As I mentioned, if the context calls for it, then by all means it makes sense to have a more chaste romance. I think they did this with Sebastian in DA2? I never got that dlc, so I'm only going by what I've heard. The background for that character was that he was bad boy turned chaste, I believe. So it makes sense that your romance with him would be chaste, as well. If ME:A has a society that doesn't believe in being openly sexual or that sex should wait, for whatever reason, then it makes MORE sense if you romance someone from that culture that your romance would be more innocent than romancing an Asari, for instance. If it fits the story, make it fit properly.

[Iakus]

I do think that Bull, Sera and Leliana would probably be just fine if someone declined sex, though I'm not sure Bull and Sera would have continued the relationship for long without it. However, I was under the impression that you wanted the implication of sex without the nudity and, to me, with characters like Bull and Leliana, that would come off looking out of character. For me, it's about the context and characters. If the context is that society isn't uptight about sex and the characters aren't uptight about sex then the sex scene should reflect that and nudity in some form should be included. That does not mean that I think they shouldn't have characters who can have a more ambiguous romance or one that is more chaste. But to create a character who is obviously very comfortable with their sexuality and then show them clothed in scenes where they normally wouldn't be is awkward and immersion breaking.

 

My ideal situation would be what was done in ME1:

 

Shepard could decline sex with the LIs (Ashley, Kaidan, or Liara) and the romance still locks in

or:

Alternatively, Shepard could sleep with the LI, but the player can skip past the scene with a push of a button, or watch the entire scene unfold, in all its sideboob and butt glory.

 

Regardless of the society of the Mass Effect setting, not everyone needs or even wants to see sex scenes.  Even if we like romances, and don't mind sex in them, we don't necessarily need to see the sausage being made (if you'll excuse the metaphor, which ended up going someplace terrible...)

 

I mean, just because batarians have a rather brutal slave system in their culture, doesn't mean I want to see people being tortured of have their heads blown off if we ever visited it.Just hearing about it was bad enough for me.

 

 

 

Likewise with context, if the development or context for a particular character would benefit cinematically (for lack of a better word) or story/character development-wise from a certain scene showing nudity, then I want to see it that way. For me, that was the case with Dorian's romance.  It wasn't the nudity itself that made the scene for me, it was the implication or representation of what the nudity meant--in his case, of being fully exposed before someone, completely open to them. To me, the difference between his clothed version and his nude version is pretty big. The clothed version shows something sweet, the hope for something more. The nude version shows his vulnerability and his trust in Inky. This isn't just a hope for something more, it's a commitment to see it through because they're both there, exposed and vulnerable in their own ways.

 

 Personally, I'd rather see a lot more dialogue and even personal quests than a sex scene.  When I romanced Ashley in ME1, I got far more of a sense of vulnerability when she talked about her survivor's guilt after Kaidan died, or missing her family, or how hard she worked to overcome the "Williams' Curse"

 

 

 

I didn't say anyone wanted underwear sex to return. But let's face it, for the option you want, BW has handled it in pretty limited ways, underwear sex being one of them. It's cringeworthy and was just an example. Personally, I'm all for options but, as someone up thread shared, I frankly don't want those options to step all over developing the mature romance scenes that I've come to expect in a game like ME. For instance, the way they handled Dorian's scene so you can have a no sex or a sex option--fine because it caters to both preferences. Adding in a character who's romance is ambiguous or chaste--great, as long as they don't do this with all the characters. Making a character like Bull and then only including romantic dialogue in the clothed scenes or not showing any nudity--doesn't work for me.
 

Frankly, I don't expect much maturity at all from Bioware romance scenes.  At least not from the Mass Effect series, given the costuming choices of several characters in the trilogy.

 

But again, to me "the money shot" is probably the least important aspect of a romance.

 

 

 

While I agree with Han that all cut scenes should be skippable, I don't want them to dissect dialogue from a nude scene and put it in a clothed scene if it makes more sense or has more impact in the nude scene. The Dorian dialogue is almost the same, nude or clothed. The animations are different and I think even the facial animations are a little different, though that just might be my bias. If they had shown the nude scene without that dialogue and then tagged that on as an after scene with them clothed (i.e., shown the nude scene and then skipped to the same clothed version they used for the no-sex Dorian), it would have been ridiculous, looked terrible, and made no sense.
As far as the shame thing goes, I wasn't trying to imply or say that you or anyone who doesn't want nude scenes is ashamed so I apologize if that's how it sounded. What I was trying to say is if the context or setting isn't uptight about sex or the character has a sexual nature in some way, showing a romance scene without nudity makes the game/developers seem to be implying we should be ashamed of wanting to see the nudity. Because it doesn't fit the context.

If there is dialogue in a scene, especially where the player has to respond, then by definition, it isn't skippable.  

 

I am not annoyed specifically at you, but at the tendency to reductio ad absurdum these arguments to "You don't want nudity in a game, so you want dry humping/underwear sex/ some other ridiculous statement.

 

But just because the setting itself may not see sex as a big deal.  It is to a lot of people in the here and now.  For a lot of people it's a deeply personal, intimate subject.  Not something to be ashamed of, but not something to be casually bandied about either.  

 

And a video game is unlikely to do such a personal matter justice.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As a note: If there are multiples cultures and various attitudes about sex then it stands to reason that there would be different stances on sex. Said cultural opinions and attitudes towards it may not necessarily stem from prudity.
 

Not to mention that even in those societies there are people with individual opinions and attitudes about such things for a variety of reasons just like here on Earth, like for example there are Asari who are not nearly as open about sexuality as other members of their species and there are Salarians who are more open about being in intimate relationships than others of their species. 

[Shechinah]

[...]

 

Your attitude is unbecoming in a constructive discussion.
 

Modifié par BioWareMod06, 02 février 2016 - 09:16 .
Edited to remove Moderated Quote

[Laughing_Man]

Your attitude is unbecoming in a constructive discussion.
 

 

I think this is the base of the issue, isn't it?

 

The sentence he wrote actually makes sense: Don't pretend, be open about what you are.

You on the other hand, care more about "unbecoming attitude". (according to your own rules)

 

It's the same with the political-correctness initiative and the anti-sex crowd, it seems like there is very little regard to the natural flow of what makes sense

in a given situation for a given character, and more regard to adhering to superstition and outdated Victorian values.

[Shechinah]

I think this is the base of the issue, isn't it?

 

The sentence he wrote actually makes sense: Don't pretend, be open about what you are.

You on the other hand, care more about "unbecoming attitude". (according to your own rules)

 

Let's say you made a post as a part of the discussion in which you presented your arguments and opinions. Rather than continue the discussion and engage you as a serious participant in the discussion by sharing my own opinions and arguments on the subject, I instead respond with "If the word hedonist fits then wear it". It's not a counterargument nor a serious attempt at a discussion, in my opinion, it's a differently worded "Whatever.".

 

If you feel an argument in a serious discussion is flawed or has poorly-constructed points then point out the flaw and adress the points. If you disagree with the other discussionary party's opinion and argument but feel there is nothing more to discuss and no reason to continue then agreeing to disagree is a valid response.  

 

That is why I consider it an unbecoming attitude in a serious and constructive discussion: Because I see it as a dismissive attitude towards someone else's argument and opinion. It's not an attempt to counter their argument and address their points. It's a refusal to engage them as a discussionary party.

 

I care about unbecoming attitudes in serious discussions because they can derail constructive discussions into inhospital and uncivilised arguing rather than an exchange of ideas and opinions. It can makes some topics impossible to discuss sometimes for greath lengths of time.  

 

But tell me, Tzeentchian Apostrophe, what am I pretending not to be - a prude? Present your arguments and evidence because I am curious to learn on what you based this conclusion especially given that I know I've made, at least, one dirty comment in my time on these forums  
 

[Onewomanarmy]

There gotta be nudity! It's an adults game, not a kids game.

[9TailsFox]

There gotta be nudity! It's an adults game, not a kids game.

But.

[Onewomanarmy]

But.
https://youtu.be/Qh2sWSVRrmo

Oh God the children, the poor children, someone has to shelter the children and their sensitive eyes :'(

[Chealec]

I invoke Godwin on this thread!

 

"The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation."

[Iakus]

There gotta be nudity! It's an adults game, not a kids game.

Pillars of Eternity

 

Life is Strange

Deus Ex: Human Revolution

Starcraft 2

Dishonored

X-Com

Alpha Protocol

Borderlands

Divinity: Original Sin

The Walking Dead (both season 1 and 2)

Fallout (any of them)

 

M rated games.  No nudity.

[Cyonan]

There gotta be nudity! It's an adults game, not a kids game.

 

I should be allowed to make it mandatory for all crew members to go into battle completely naked.

[Onewomanarmy]

I should be allowed to make it mandatory for all crew members to go into battle completely naked.

 

Oh yes! I wanna see some manboobs during fighting!! Okay maybe not manboobs... LOL but some distraction in the action!!

[Cyonan]

Oh yes! I wanna see some manboobs during fighting!! Okay maybe not manboobs... LOL but some distraction in the action!!

 

I imagine there would be a lot of great distractions to be had for all =P

 

and the Krogan of course makes all nearby men feel inadequate.

[Onewomanarmy]

I imagine there would be a lot of great distractions to be had for all =P

 

and the Krogan of course makes all nearby men feel inadequate.

 

HAHAHAHA

 

GO KROGANS GOOOOOOO

 

[Chealec]

Pillars of Eternity

 

Life is Strange

Deus Ex: Human Revolution

Starcraft 2

Dishonored

X-Com

Alpha Protocol

Borderlands

Divinity: Original Sin

The Walking Dead (both season 1 and 2)

Fallout (any of them)

 

M rated games.  No nudity.

 

 

The Sectoids and Zerg are naked at the very least... as is Dogmeat in Fallout... hell, there's probably loads of nudity in all those games!

[Cyonan]

The Sectoids and Zerg are naked at the very least... as is Dogmeat in Fallout... hell, there's probably loads of nudity in all those games!

 

I'm suddenly very concerned about where the Hydralisk's spines they shoot come from.

[Iakus]

Oh yes! I wanna see some manboobs during fighting!! Okay maybe not manboobs... LOL but some distraction in the action!!

Play DAI.  The Iron Bull's bosomy man-pillows are on display for all.

[Onewomanarmy]

Play DAI.  The Iron Bull's bosomy man-pillows are on display for all.

 

I did lol. It was very funny indeed

[DarthSliver]

But.

 

What about the children? you know a child is ready to learn this stuff when they start asking questions otherwise they will outsource for the information. The parents may not like giving them the information but they will for sure not like their kids methods of outsourcing for the info

[aoibhealfae]

I could understand the gripe about wanting non-nudity options. I guess a lot of people play their games on tv and I guess, seeing something that was near CGI porn could have been problematic.

 

That being said, its M rating. 

[Han Shot First]

For me, it's actually that the nudity added an undertone and ambiance that I think a clothed scene would have lacked.

 

The lack of nudity would also potentially have resulted in a scene as odd as Traynor & Fem Shep's clothed make out session in the shower. You'd have two characters laying together on the grass in a private moment, after having slept together, having put full armor back on.  

 

The only way to have done that scene differently and not reduce the characters to weirdos who spoon in plate armor, would be to use different camera angles and position the characters differently where the nudity is implied but not actually shown.

[Han Shot First]

Or they could have met in the middle and used shadows and clever camera angles to suggest nudity without explicitly showing it. 

 

Caught me while I was editing. 

 

I'm actually cool with lighting tricks and camera angles. The big thing for me is just that the characters seem like real people, whether or not any nudity is shown. I also prefer nudity or implied to nudity to awkward fades to black for similar reasons. Fades to black just aren't cinematic, and result in this awkward scenario where the two characters are standing around fully clothed afterwards and not talking.

 

EDIT: Oops...looks like I also caught you before an edit.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Caught me while I was editing. 

 

I'm actually cool with lighting tricks and camera angles. The big thing for me is just that the characters seem like real people, whether or not any nudity is shown. I also prefer nudity or implied to nudity to awkward fades to black for similar reasons. Fades to black just aren't cinematic, and result in this awkward scenario where the two characters are standing around fully clothed afterwards and not talking.

 

EDIT: Oops...looks like I also caught you before an edit.

Yeah, just when I posted I refreshed the page and saw you added what I said so I hid my post.

 

But yeah, I don't mind when they use shadows or clever camera angles. It still captures any intimacy or other feelings the scene would have with nudity but without being explicit. After all, that's why many if not most movies with sex scenes use that method.