281 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

It make sense because she is seeing her peoples die before her..and wanted to die with them.....

I don't think I would be in a hurry.... As depressing as it would be.

[Lulupab]

Not really , you could say the same about every specie . You fough krogan , asari , salarian , batarian , vorcha..etc . 

 

So really , only someone who can't make a good judgement that the situation is dire will go with extinct X.....

 

Well the geth need extra leap because all of them are part of a consensus. The geth we fought were getting orders from half the geth population to kill Shepard.

 

The species we fight have personalities and want to fight because of their own goals, what they do does not reflect what half their whole population wants.

[Lulupab]

The problem with most of the Mass Effect trilogy Renegade/Evil(if you like) choices is that they are meaningless cruelties. It's more like being a bully for no reason and no real reward.
Punching Han Gerrel was rewarding in itself, but in general I didn't feel like most other Renegade responses were warranted.


Mass Effect choices.

Scenario:
Salarian waiter brings you your coffe, asks you if you want milk or suggar.

Paragon: Milk, thank you very much.
Salarian: Do you want our special Shepard cake? It's on the house!

Renegade: Why can't you remember that the Shepard wants Milk to his/her coffe? *Shepard grabs the Salarian and shoves him into the garbage shute.* *Goes back to drinking the coffe black, annoyed that they forgot the milk*


Most Renegade responses commes across as being a stupid brute who endup loosing out due to it, or gain nothing.

 

Its sad and true about most renegade decisions. Renegade options in ME3 even end up giving you less galactic power than paragon shepard.

 

The only thing it gets you is satisfaction of the action itself, like forcing a Salarin into a trash can.

[Laughing_Man]

But what if its Wrex? People keep playing the Wreav card when asked about genophage. With Wrex as leader, tricking them is more than simple harshness.

 

Yes and no.

 

I don't think that Wrex and Eve have a real chance to prevent the next Krogan rebellion if a full genophage cure is in effect.

 

Just do the Math: Every (or most) female gives birth every year to between a few hundreds and a thousand young.

From this point on, every new generation you need to multiply the number of females times thousand, for every year, to reach the number of new Krogan being born.

 

This is a biological weapon of mass destruction in every sense of the word.

 

Just a few generations after The Cure, Krogan population will explode.

 

The only realistic way to solve this issue that I can see, is to use a modified Genophage "cure", that will make the Krogan fertile, but will limit the number of fertile eggs a female can produce every time to only a few eggs. This way Krogan numbers will rise and stabilize their situation, but not explode.

[Panda]

But what if its Wrex? People keep playing the Wreav card when asked about genophage. With Wrex as leader, tricking them is more than simple harshness.

 

 

 

Of course I prefer the ceasefire, but siding with Geth really needs a huge leap of faith when Shepard has spent all those years fighting Geth and AI in general and half the Geth went nuts at some point. I punched that Quarian admiral which I don't even remember the name of, and it gave me a lot of satisfaction to do it. I think Quarians deserve a good spanking.  

 

Looking at it with the view of "who will be useful against reapers" is probably the best justification one can have for siding with the Geth, but its pretty ruthless to base the decision of letting a race getting extinct on what they will provide you with in war.

 

I don't see it similarly. Cause I think there is few points to think about:

 

1. Are Geth as deserving to live as other alien species? Do they count as people?

2. Quarians are attackers after revenge so will you take attackers side or defend those who are attacked.

3. Do you think it's not your place to step in and decide faith of two alien species and so you let happen what would happen without you (Quarians kill Geth).

4. Utilitarian view: who will help you most in the Reaper war.

 

I considered mostly 1.-3. points and ended up with Geth. I don't see my decision as evil or wrong, but also not just and right. Also we have EDI and Legion, two synthetics who want to save world with you and who are your friends so I think based on them you can place your faith in synthetics as well

 

The problem with most of the Mass Effect trilogy Renegade/Evil(if you like) choices is that they are meaningless cruelties. It's more like being a bully for no reason and no real reward.
Punching Han Gerrel was rewarding in itself, but in general I didn't feel like most other Renegade responses were warranted.


Mass Effect choices.

Scenario:
Salarian waiter brings you your coffe, asks you if you want milk or suggar.

Paragon: Milk, thank you very much.
Salarian: Do you want our special Shepard cake? It's on the house!

Renegade: Why can't you remember that the Shepard wants Milk to his/her coffe? *Shepard grabs the Salarian and shoves him into the garbage shute.* *Goes back to drinking the coffe black, annoyed that they forgot the milk*


Most Renegade responses commes across as being a stupid brute who endup loosing out due to it, or gain nothing.

 

Some renegade options however are good, they are efficient and help you to forward quest/combat. Many of them aren't that "evil", they can be just straightforward remarks. But the problem for me is that until you know what each option does you don't have clue what you will do when you press R2. Will you intimidate someone to answer you or step down? Will you punch them in the face like that one reporter in Citadel? Or will you kill someone cold-bloodedly and unnecessarily? ^^

[mickey111]

I think I would flinch flinch at having the option to do a Ramsay Bolton, if that's what you're asking. closest ive seen to evil in a game was that interrogation in the middle of GTAV trevor and that other ******* seemed to enjoy the torturing.

[DuskWanderer]

Eh, being evil is overrated and boring, 

[stysiaq]

You are as evil as evil can be in ME3. The reapers are a threat to you personally, so you have to stop them. But you can be an outright psychopath and evil with how you handle Krogan, Quarian/geth issue etc...

 

 

I don't agree with you. Quarian and Krogan 'evil' paths are as rationalized as they can be. DA:O evil warden is the last time I was able to be evil for the sake of being evil, without a 'big picture' behind my actions.

[stysiaq]

Eh, being evil is overrated and boring, 

 

It's not "overrated". Who rates it high? It's just an option to do terrible things without anyone getting hurt. And some evil options in classic RPGs (like the Infinity games) are outright hilarious.

[DuskWanderer]

It's not "overrated". Who rates it high? It's just an option to do terrible things without anyone getting hurt. And some evil options in classic RPGs (like the Infinity games) are outright hilarious.

 

People like you seem to be obsessed. If you do random terrible things to people, why would anyone want to work with you? Plus the things you're talking about aren't "anyone not getting hurt" 

[Medhia_Nox]

Most people are already ****** poor human beings... and yet, they're so deluded into thinking they're good people that they want to play evil to "do something new". 

 

I support the inclusion of the evil choices of course, for me, it's so I can simply ignore them. 

 

But let's not pretend any Bioware protagonist ever was a "good" person (except by the most poorly defined versions of the term "good") 

[Mcfly616]

Hmm gunning down Wrex "Scarface-style" wasn't evil enough for you, I guess.

 

 

Judging by how it was handled in the trilogy, I'd say it's overrated (as someone else stated above). If anything they should do a better job of making the Renegade choices more akin to an anti-hero rather than a full-blown villain.

[AlexiaRevan]

Yes and no.

 

I don't think that Wrex and Eve have a real chance to prevent the next Krogan rebellion if a full genophage cure is in effect.

 

Just do the Math: Every (or most) female gives birth every year to between a few hundreds and a thousand young.

From this point on, every new generation you need to multiply the number of females times thousand, for every year, to reach the number of new Krogan being born.

 

This is a biological weapon of mass destruction in every sense of the word.

 

Just a few generations after The Cure, Krogan population will explode.

 

The only realistic way to solve this issue that I can see, is to use a modified Genophage "cure", that will make the Krogan fertile, but will limit the number of fertile eggs a female can produce every time to only a few eggs. This way Krogan numbers will rise and stabilize their situation, but not explode.

Math and numbers were never a solid answer . I mean , who decide who has the right to live and die ? 

 

Population will explode ? the galaxy is big..I think there is enough space . The only one against it are those who want to hold the power for themself and wont see whats beyond aka whole galaxy cooperating . 

[Lulupab]

I don't agree with you. Quarian and Krogan 'evil' paths are as rationalized as they can be. DA:O evil warden is the last time I was able to be evil for the sake of being evil, without a 'big picture' behind my actions.

The "big picture" in DAO is simply smaller. You can learn blood magic by sacrificing a child, but you will use that magic to end the blight.

[stysiaq]

People like you seem to be obsessed. If you do random terrible things to people, why would anyone want to work with you? Plus the things you're talking about aren't "anyone not getting hurt" 

 

How am I obsessed?

 

lol

 

and when I talked about no one getting hurt I meant real life, you know, doing cruel stuff in games is sometimes a good stress relief.

[Medhia_Nox]

The Krogan would take care of themselves anyway.  They're an interesting violent species in the sense that they seem incapable of uniting to take on an outside force.  Krogan seem most interested in fighting Krogan... which would be a boon to the galaxy if the genophage is cured.

 

Yes, they fight the Rachni - but that's with the Salarians moving them around like pawns.  

 

When that war is over... Wrex clearly states that while his dad wanted to eat the Turians for lunch - he wanted to build a better Tuchanka.  The Krogan will handle the Krogan methinks.

[DuskWanderer]

The Krogan would take care of themselves anyway.  They're an interesting violent species in the sense that they seem incapable of uniting to take on an outside force.  Krogan seem most interested in fighting Krogan... which would be a boon to the galaxy if the genophage is cured.

 

Yes, they fight the Rachni - but that's with the Salarians moving them around like pawns.  

 

When that war is over... Wrex clearly states that while his dad wanted to eat the Turians for lunch - he wanted to build a better Tuchanka.  The Krogan will handle the Krogan methinks.

 

We saw in the endings that if Wreav were in charge, the krogan lead a giant war. If Eve is alive, she wars against him, but if she's not, he attacks the other races. 

[Laughing_Man]

Most people are already ****** poor human beings... and yet, they're so deluded into thinking they're good people that they want to play evil to "do something new". 

 

I support the inclusion of the evil choices of course, for me, it's so I can simply ignore them. 

 

But let's not pretend any Bioware protagonist ever was a "good" person (except by the most poorly defined versions of the term "good") 

 

I don't know what kind of morality system you consider as "correct", but if every action in itself that this hypothetical protagonist has performed is good or at least justified, than I would consider him to be "good" (or at least not "bad" depends on the particulars).

 

It's very easy to sit upon your high horse and pass judgement on everyone or find "bad" in every "good", but this is an exercise in futility.

Yes, you could live your entire life as a monk on a secluded mountain top and consider morality, but is the fact that you spent your life pondering and didn't do some actual good yourself isn't "bad" to some degree?

 

I don't know what you mean by "poorly defined versions of good", according to who exactly?

Are you believer of the Qun perhaps? There are no certainties here.

 

You may find actions that are widely accepted as evil, but are sometimes considered acceptable by people due to "extenuating circumstances" and vice versa for actions that are widely considered as "good".

 

We are all products of our environment which influences our sense of morality.

Morality is relative and is never universal, it changes from country to country, religion to religion, and culture to culture.

 

If you want to be "good" toward others, all you can really do is try not to be too self centered about your own wants and personal beliefs.

Just live and let live. Makes sense? Of course, you can go further than this, but this seems to be the bare minimum IMO.

 

 

Math and numbers were never a solid answer . I mean , who decide who has the right to live and die ? 

 

Population will explode ? the galaxy is big..I think there is enough space . The only one against it are those who want to hold the power for themself and wont see whats beyond aka whole galaxy cooperating . 

 

It's ALWAYS about numbers. Who gives you the right to sacrifice more to save the few?

And those who decide are those that are in position to decide, there is nothing more to it.

 

The galaxy is big, but what about fifty generations later? A hundred?

Every Krogan has the biology of an aggressive apex predator, a thousand Krogan every birth means that you are signing the death warrant of every other existing race in the galaxy. Just a matter of time.

 

As I said, all you need to do is to lower the number of fertile eggs to be somewhat in line with other species reproduction cycles.

Otherwise, the insatiable hunger for more planets and more resources will inevitably lead to war, and Wrex won't be around to stop it then .

[Medhia_Nox]

@Tzeentchian Apostrophe:  I don't have time to judge you from a high horse, I'm too busy working on my own self-improvement. 

 

Morality isn't relative, but I'm not going to bother because you won't be interested in listening.  If you want to live with a relative morality, then you should simply accept that my relative morality is as relevant as yours instead of sitting on your high horse and pontificating about how wrong I am.  The sword cuts both ways, but you relativists never live by your own supposed code - so busy are you pushing your own agendas.  

 

I already said I support the inclusion of "evil" - no matter how boorish I find.  My satisfaction comes in the ease of simply ignoring those options.  But, video game morality isn't anything remotely deep.  It's all very simple mechanics of "apathy toward killed mobs" "selfish materialist acquisition of phat lewts" and "self-aggrandizement to kick up the endorphin hits in the brain." 

 

I don't have a problem with paragon and renegade because I don't see either of them as good or evil.  Paragon is diplomatic, hopeful, idealistic - none of that makes the man/woman who's killed hundreds of mobs mercilessly a "good" person.  Likewise - renegade is just an a-hole.  Nobody is evil for being an a-hole alone. 

 

So, now if you REALLY believe that all relative moralities are of equal importance... we should be done here. 

[Hazegurl]

But what if its Wrex? People keep playing the Wreav card when asked about genophage. With Wrex as leader, tricking them is more than simple harshness.

 

 

I always sabotage the Genophage with Wrex as the leader. I don't believe for a moment that Wrex and Eve can keep potentially billions of Krogan in line. That's like having a president of Earth.   If expecting one person to lead over 7 billion humans and maintain long lasting peace in the process unrealistic to you, then why think the Krogan are any different.  Their plan is just a recipe for disaster.  And the worse case scenario is that they all get reaperized sometime during the war and we end up with billions of breeding Krogan to deal with. 

 

As for Mordin, Shepard hated shooting him but he was so wrapped up in his own guilt he refused to see reason.

 

 

 

Of course I prefer the ceasefire, but siding with Geth really needs a huge leap of faith when Shepard has spent all those years fighting Geth and AI in general and half the Geth went nuts at some point. I punched that Quarian admiral which I don't even remember the name of, and it gave me a lot of satisfaction to do it. I think Quarians deserve a good spanking.  

 

Looking at it with the view of "who will be useful against reapers" is probably the best justification one can have for siding with the Geth, but its pretty ruthless to base the decision of letting a race getting extinct on what they will provide you with in war.

 

 

 

I also prefer the ceasefire but if I have a choice, I go ahead and pick Geth.  Worst case scenario is that they choose to side with the Reapers.  Best case, they live longer than any organic to fight the Reapers and/or possibly prepare enough to fight them for the next cycle.  Unlike any organic, they can survive and go into the next cycle with first hand accounts et al.  Much better than relying on time capsules and beacons. There eventually needs to be something that breaks the cycle so I take it as a major gamble at this point.  The Quarians may have the largest fleet, but they are lead by one hot headed dumba** who would kill every last one of his people for a one shot chance.  I hardly consider that a positive.

[Torgette]

So over in the M or F thread Heretic and I got into a discussion about DAI's Inquisition and whether you'd want to play a game as the Spanish Inquisition, which I equated to wanting to play as the worst elements of the Waffen SS in a WW2 game. I guess the question at the end of the day is whether you think a game's plot and story should be changed in order to accommodate systematic evil vs. just being an evil individual?

[Torgette]

I also prefer the ceasefire but if I have a choice, I go ahead and pick Geth.  Worst case scenario is that they choose to side with the Reapers.  Best case, they live longer than any organic to fight the Reapers and/or possibly prepare enough to fight them for the next cycle.  Unlike any organic, they can survive and go into the next cycle with first hand accounts et al.  Much better than relying on time capsules and beacons. There eventually needs to be something that breaks the cycle so I take it as a major gamble at this point.  The Quarians may have the largest fleet, but they are lead by one hot headed dumba** who would kill every last one of his people for a one shot chance.  I hardly consider that a positive.

 

If I were the reapers and couldn't corrupt the remaining geth like they did with the Heretics, then i'd just wipe them out too - they're still a product of the Quarian civilization after all.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

As I said, all you need to do is to lower the number of fertile eggs to be somewhat in line with other species reproduction cycles.

Otherwise, the insatiable hunger for more planets and more resources will inevitably lead to war, and Wrex won't be around to stop it then .

Thats playing God..and that never end well . 

 

 

It's ALWAYS about numbers. Who gives you the right to sacrifice more to save the few?

And those who decide are those that are in position to decide, there is nothing more to it.

 

The galaxy is big, but what about fifty generations later? A hundred?

Every Krogan has the biology of an aggressive apex predator, a thousand Krogan every birth means that you are signing the death warrant of every other existing race in the galaxy. Just a matter of time.

It never about numbers , unless you like that notion . I don't . 

 

If you don't try to save the few then nobody should be in that position where they have to make the choice if they dont have the gut to find a solution to save the few . 

 

Nobody should be deciding what happen fifty generation since Shepard wont be there . You set the beginning and set the exemple , and the others will continue your work . Peoples want to set the futur for others . None has a say what is the futur for others . You do whats best and hope the next generation will know better and won't make the mistake you just fixed . 

[Torgette]

The subject of the Genophage is always kind of funny because wiping out the Krogans is technically more goody 2 shoes than curing the genophage, war between the krogans and the rest of the galaxy is inevitable if you cure it, so really curing the genophage is more Shepard throwing their hands up and saying "f it! I just want to win the reaper war, damn the consequences!". 

[Hazegurl]

If I were the reapers and couldn't corrupt the remaining geth like they did with the Heretics, then i'd just wipe them out too - they're still a product of the Quarian civilization after all.

I fully expect the Reapers to try and wipe out the Geth, But I think they have a higher chance of surviving.  Not all of them but a decent enough number.  They don't need life pods and other high maintenance means of survival.  If some of the protheans survived (The last Protheans scientists) by hiding, then the Geth stand a good chance, and they can make more Geth once the Reapers are gone. 

 

The subject of the Genophage is always kind of funny because wiping out the Krogans is technically more goody 2 shoes than curing the genophage, war between the krogans and the rest of the galaxy is inevitable if you cure it, so really curing the genophage is more Shepard throwing their hands up and saying "f it! I just want to win the reaper war, damn the consequences!". 

 

Not really, The Genophage choice falls in line with all the Paragon choices.  Shepard is relying on having faith in Wrex and Eve with the belief that the Krogan deserve a cure.