281 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

As if I need a game to be evil.

 

Muahahahaha!

[KaiserShep]

I don't think I would be in a hurry.... As depressing as it would be.

In Tali's position, I would have taken a shotgun to both Shepard and Legion, though more likely, I would have shot Legion before it got a chance to upload anything. I gave her the Crusader at the time; she would've wrecked 'em both.

[RatThing]

Nah, I don't want to be evil just for the sake of it. The choices you get should make sense, they should serve a purpose. I simply want a story that is immersive and somewhat logical. Take Shepard for example. As a Spectre one can of course say that the end justifies the means if the problem at hand is that dire. But if Shepard would be just a callous psychopath, who in the right mind would make him/her Spectre in the first place?. Leave the nonsensical viciousness to GTA or games like that.

 

 

We are all products of our environment which influences our sense of morality.

Morality is relative and is never universal, it changes from country to country, religion to religion, and culture to culture.

 

I agree with this. I don't think morality is redundant, but it`s mostly a product of ones society added with ones personal ideology. It even changes from person to person. For example, the way some Mass Effect writers compared the treatment of AI with slavery and racism showed me how much their moral code differs from mine. That's why I actually hope they abandon the morality system completely. Especially if the arc theory is true and I'm fighting for the future of my species, I don't want a paragon/renegade system and scars on my PC's face tell me what is bad and what is good. I will decide that for myself in this case.

[Quarian Master Race]

But letting the Geth die is okay?

yes. You should feel no more guilt over this than replacing a broken roomba.

 

The Quarians are nice and all, but if you can't force a peace agreement, you have to pick the side which will be more helpful against the Reapers.

The Geth know more about Reaper code than anyone else, due to first hand experience. Are they preferable to the Quarians against the Reapers?

That's the decision you need to make, it may be harsh, but I don't see outright evil here.

How do the geth know anything about Reaper code? Does a mindless husk know anything about Reaper tech? Because that's what the geth are when they sell themselves to the Reapers. Moreover, how would that even help build the Crucible (which isn't Reaper tech) anyway? If anything, seems like it would just make them much easier to hack now that their architecture is based upon untested enemy software.

 

Looking at it with the view of "who will be useful against reapers" is probably the best justification one can have for siding with the Geth, but its pretty ruthless to base the decision of letting a race getting extinct on what they will provide you with in war.

The quarians are objectively more useful and it is reflected in the war asset numbers provided you make the most intelligent decisions to maximize them. The only reason to pick the geth is misguided feels from watching too much Star Trek TNG or Pinnochio.

 

Not really , you could say the same about every specie . You fough krogan , asari , salarian , batarian , vorcha..etc . 

 

So really , only someone who can't make a good judgement that the situation is dire will go with extinct X.....

The other species are individuals and thus do not operate and govern by consensus. Every single geth except for Legion/ VI agreed to ally with the Reapers and help with the extermination of all organic life in the galaxy, some of them on two seperate occasions. No reason to believe they wouldn't do the same if their organic allies started losing.

 

I don't see it similarly. Cause I think there is few points to think about:

 

1. Are Geth as deserving to live as other alien species? Do they count as people?

2. Quarians are attackers after revenge so will you take attackers side or defend those who are attacked.

3. Do you think it's not your place to step in and decide faith of two alien species and so you let happen what would happen without you (Quarians kill Geth).

4. Utilitarian view: who will help you most in the Reaper war.

 

1)No
2) Quarians aren't after revenge. If the robots would stop squatting on their planet, there wouldn't be an issue. That's like breaking into someones house then getting mad when they try to shoot me.
3) The geth already made that decision for you. They allied with the Reapers to try and escape their rightful fate. Kill them.
4) Quarians, objectively, as above. Geth are mindless toasters to throw at the Reapers. You already should have mindless battletoads by this point to do the same thing, so you need ships to transport them to the frontline and give them fire support, and brilliant individuals like Xen to work on the Crucible (the only real chance you have of winning). 

 

 

I also prefer the ceasefire but if I have a choice, I go ahead and pick Geth.  Worst case scenario is that they choose to side with the Reapers.  Best case, they live longer than any organic to fight the Reapers and/or possibly prepare enough to fight them for the next cycle.  Unlike any organic, they can survive and go into the next cycle with first hand accounts et al.  Much better than relying on time capsules and beacons. There eventually needs to be something that breaks the cycle so I take it as a major gamble at this point.  The Quarians may have the largest fleet, but they are lead by one hot headed dumba** who would kill every last one of his people for a one shot chance.  I hardly consider that a positive.

 

No, worse case scenario is that they choose to side with the Reapers and everyone dies, best case is that they get killed along with everyone else, because in case you weren't paying attention Reapers just destroy synthetics instead of harvesting them (why do you think there are no synthetics from previous cycles?). Or you win, the geth realize at some point in the future that they are now ascendant over all other beings in the galaxy because you stupidly gave them Reaper code, and everyone dies anyway.

Gerrel's willingness to do what it takes is a positive. He's going to help you kill Reapers or die trying, not turn traitor when things start looking bad like the geth have proven themselves to do. Plus he's a brilliant strategist

Yes, this decision can be considered evil. Allowing the geth to have Reaper code at all is Chaotic Stupid. Genociding sentients who are more useful than them to give them that Code is Chaotic Stupid Evil, if there's even a trope for that one.

[Laughing_Man]

@Tzeentchian Apostrophe:  I don't have time to judge you from a high horse, I'm too busy working on my own self-improvement. 

 

Morality isn't relative, but I'm not going to bother because you won't be interested in listening.  If you want to live with a relative morality, then you should simply accept that my relative morality is as relevant as yours instead of sitting on your high horse and pontificating about how wrong I am.  The sword cuts both ways, but you relativists never live by your own supposed code - so busy are you pushing your own agendas.  

 

I already said I support the inclusion of "evil" - no matter how boorish I find.  My satisfaction comes in the ease of simply ignoring those options.  But, video game morality isn't anything remotely deep.  It's all very simple mechanics of "apathy toward killed mobs" "selfish materialist acquisition of phat lewts" and "self-aggrandizement to kick up the endorphin hits in the brain." 

 

I don't have a problem with paragon and renegade because I don't see either of them as good or evil.  Paragon is diplomatic, hopeful, idealistic - none of that makes the man/woman who's killed hundreds of mobs mercilessly a "good" person.  Likewise - renegade is just an a-hole.  Nobody is evil for being an a-hole alone. 

 

So, now if you REALLY believe that all relative moralities are of equal importance... we should be done here. 

 

 

There is no need for all the antagonism. By all means, educate me. Tell me what real morality is.

 

Video games are not realistic, not even remotely, especially when it comes to "number of mobs killed". So using that as an argument is... rather problematic.

 

That said, I do believe that you can kill someone and still be considered good under certain circumstances. That's what my morality tells me.

As I said, video games just blow the numbers out of proportions for the sake of gameplay, but in principle, if certain kills are justified,

they are still justified if you do them many times. (they will probably leave a psychological impact in real life, but that's not the issue here)

 

Yes, I play games because they are fun and entertaining. Does this makes me evil according to your morality rule-set?

[Laughing_Man]

How do the geth know anything about Reaper code? Does a mindless husk know anything about Reaper tech? Because that's what the geth are when they sell themselves to the Reapers. Moreover, how would that even help build the Crucible (which isn't Reaper tech) anyway? If anything, seems like it would just make them much easier to hack now that their architecture is based upon untested enemy software.

 

Geth are aware of intrusions. Geth are not one entity, but rather a coalition of the synthetic equivalent of blood-cells and are capable of adaptation and learning on levels that are not possible for organics. If anything, they probably have now more "white blood cells" against Reaper intrusion protocols. While organics are still susceptible to to indoctrination as ever.

 

Still by no means I said that choosing the Quarians is not a viable choice Vs. the Reapers. I merely suggested a logical reason for someone to choose the Geth.

[Quarian Master Race]

Geth are aware of intrusions. Geth are not one entity, but rather a coalition of the synthetic equivalent of blood-cells and are capable of adaptation and learning on levels that are not possible for organics. If anything, they probably have now more "white blood cells" against Reaper intrusion protocols. While organics are still susceptible to to indoctrination as ever.

 

Still by no means I said that choosing the Quarians is not a viable choice Vs. the Reapers. I merely suggested a logical reason for someone to choose the Geth.

I'm aware of how geth operate, and it didn't help them to stop Xen from making a joke of their supposed resistance to hacking, this while they had the Reaper code. There's also project Overlord and its success in controlling them via something as simple as creating a deity for them to worship (only problem there was the failure of the organic component). I doubt very much that the technologically much more advanced Reapers couldn't do better if they tried.

Of course they don't, but that's because the Reapers are intentionally made stupid for us to be able to win, and you don't have that knowledge when making the decision to let them have the code or not anyway. Another decision that only doesn't backfire hilariously because of paragony moral righteousness and feels.

[Ahriman]

Killing Mordin was pretty much evil, even though we tried to reason him first, yet it was one of best scenes in ME3, IMO.

Speaking of genophage, game on multiple ocassions shoves into our face that krogans can behave. They did manage to control their population before nuclear war somehow, despite this silly thousand per year number, so with Wrex and Eve in charge krogans have a chance. And Bioware tells it directly in EC.

 

 

As I understand it we will come to a new galaxy as explorers first and foremost. Why not conquerors then? Why shouldn't we be able to do evil things to indigenous races, why not help exploiting the newly found planets a'la the Avatar antagonist? Of course, provided there will be some natives to be exploited there.

Second that. I imagine colonial government will give you enough authority to pull this out.

- We've got reports about Remnant ruins on the world with pre-industrial civilization, as you understand, all relics must be secured and studied.

- *Looks at pictures of natives* They will be. 

- ... Ok, Just spare us the details, Jenkins.

[Laughing_Man]

Thats playing God..and that never end well . 
 
It never about numbers , unless you like that notion . I don't . 
 
If you don't try to save the few then nobody should be in that position where they have to make the choice if they dont have the gut to find a solution to save the few . 
 
Nobody should be deciding what happen fifty generation since Shepard wont be there . You set the beginning and set the exemple , and the others will continue your work . Peoples want to set the futur for others . None has a say what is the futur for others . You do whats best and hope the next generation will know better and won't make the mistake you just fixed .

 
I don't really believe in a god, at least I don't think so, certainly not in the traditional sense.
So "playing god" really means very little from my perspective. There are actions and reactions, morality and logic.
 
If you can prevent a greater evil (a war in 50 years) and still save a race from extinction by modifiyng the cure, "playing god" shouldn't be a variable in considering the issue.
 
The common man on the street has the privilege of risking his own life to save someone, but when you are the leader of a country or a nation or a species, that has to decide between the lives of a handful of individuals and the lives of thousands, well, the answer is not always simple.
 

I'm aware of how geth operate, and it didn't help them to stop Xen from making a joke of their supposed resistance to hacking, this while they had the Reaper code. There's also project Overlord and its success in controlling them via something as simple as creating a deity for them to worship (only problem there was the failure of the organic component). I doubt very much that the technologically much more advanced Reapers couldn't do better if they tried.

Of course they don't, but that's because the Reapers are intentionally made stupid for us to be able to win, and you don't have that knowledge when making the decision to let them have the code or not anyway. Another decision that only doesn't backfire hilariously because of paragony moral righteousness and feels.

If it makes you feel better, personally, I probably would have chosen the Quarians. But I would have done it fully aware that I am influenced by my natural positive bias towards organics, and I don't think that things are as cut and dry as you make them out to be.

[Panda]

1)No
2) Quarians aren't after revenge. If the robots would stop squatting on their planet, there wouldn't be an issue. That's like breaking into someones house then getting mad when they try to shoot me.
3) The geth already made that decision for you. They allied with the Reapers to try and escape their rightful fate. Kill them.
4) Quarians, objectively, as above. Geth are mindless toasters to throw at the Reapers. You already should have mindless battletoads by this point to do the same thing, so you need ships to transport them to the frontline and give them fire support, and brilliant individuals like Xen to work on the Crucible (the only real chance you have of winning). 

 

1) Rather than having one right answer this is question all Shepards must ask themselves.

2) Quarians are the one's who are attacking Geths in the particular case.

3) Some geths did, no reason to dismiss them all so quickly.

4) Geths are pretty handy themselves and not only as cannon fodder.

 

I mean okay if  you don't like Geths and prefer Quarians over them.. like your name states, but what you are saying isn't universal truth. The truth is that the decision is hard and grey, there is no right and wrong.

[Quarian Master Race]

 

Killing Mordin was pretty much evil, even though we tried to reason him first, yet it was one of best scenes in ME3, IMO.

Speaking of genophage, game on multiple ocassions shoves into our face that krogans can behave. They did manage to control their population before nuclear war somehow, despite this silly thousand per year number, so with Wrex and Eve in charge krogans have a chance. And Bioware tells it directly in EC.

How is killing Mordin evil? I'd argue that after listening to Wreav prattle on about eating salarians and making geysers of blood from his enemies, not killing Mordin can only be justified by being stupid evil and malicious, or worrying about if the Krogan will find out about the sabotage and back out. There's also the feels about shooting your friend, but ultimately that should be secondary.
 

 

1) Rather than having one right answer this is question all Shepards must ask themselves.

2) Quarians are the one's who are attacking Geths in the particular case.

3) Some geths did, no reason to dismiss them all so quickly.

4) Geths are pretty handy themselves and not only as cannon fodder.

 

I mean okay if  you don't like Geths and prefer Quarians over them.. like your name states, but what you are saying isn't universal truth. The truth is that the decision is hard and grey, there is no right and wrong.

1) Any intelligent one will realize that worrying about the feelings of nonsentient software programs is a pointless exercise in misguided anthropomorphization.
2) As much as I am "attacking" my toaster when I throw it in the dumpster and get a new one because the former is broken and starts electrical fires.
3) The geth aren't individuals. Applying individualistic morality standards to them is misguided according to their own moral reasoning (per Legion's opinion). By the nature of how they reach consensus, they all agreed to support and participate in organic genocide simply to save their own arses in the short term or hopefully get a Reaper body to upload themselves into after the harvest had been completed.
4) For what? The only assets you get out of them are a fleet that's worth less than that of the quarians and some ground troops, which are mostly redundant if you have krogan. Hardly worth the danger that they present post Reaper code.

Lol@ invoking moral relativism. That basically means "I've no argument to defend my position". The decision is one of the easiest in the entire series both morally and pragmatically, right up there with sabotaging the genophage cure if Wreav's around. 

[fhs33721]

 
I don't really believe in a god, at least I don't think so, certainly not in the traditional sense.
So "playing god" really means very little from my perspective. There are actions and reactions, morality and logic.
 
If you can prevent a greater evil (a war in 50 years) and still save a race from extinction by modifiyng the cure, "playing god" shouldn't be a variable in considering the issue.
 
The common man on the street has the privilege of risking his own life to save someone, but when you are the leader of a country or a nation or a species, that has to decide between the lives of a handful of individuals and the lives of thousands, well, the answer is not always simple.
 

"Playing God" is a metaphor for something along the lines of "to behave as if you have the right to make very important decisions that seriously affect other people's lives". Wheter you believe in any sort of deity or not is completely irrelevant to the meaning of the phrase. It's like saying atheists don't understand it if someone says "God dammit" as an expression of annoyance.

And you can't prevent something that is 50 years in the future. You aren't even able to reliably guess what will happen beyond the next 5 years I'd wager. Hell, you might very easily guess what will happen to yourself tomorrow, but even then there is always the possibility that something completely different will happen. That is even one of the points Mordins arc is about.

[fhs33721]

 

2) As much as I am "attacking" my toaster,  when I get my a*s set on fire by the electric fires it causes. For the second time. And then Fireman Shepard has to save me.

Here, I fixed that for you.

Some Master race these Quarians are. Dissapointing.

[Hazegurl]

No, worse case scenario is that they choose to side with the Reapers and everyone dies, best case is that they get killed along with everyone else, because in case you weren't paying attention Reapers just destroy synthetics instead of harvesting them (why do you think there are no synthetics from previous cycles?). Or you win, the geth realize at some point in the future that they are now ascendant over all other beings in the galaxy because you stupidly gave them Reaper code, and everyone dies anyway.

Gerrel's willingness to do what it takes is a positive. He's going to help you kill Reapers or die trying, not turn traitor when things start looking bad like the geth have proven themselves to do. Plus he's a brilliant strategist

Yes, this decision can be considered evil. Allowing the geth to have Reaper code at all is Chaotic Stupid. Genociding sentients who are more useful than them to give them that Code is Chaotic Stupid Evil, if there's even a trope for that one.

Javik is that you?

 

And no, I believe my scenarios make much more sense than yours.

 

Gerrel's pew pewing his entire race to death over a one shot chance at the Geth was stupid.  His unwillingness to accept new info from the ground team makes him far more of a liability on the battlefield than an asset.  Sure he'll die trying, and take everyone with him in the process.  Nope, he can derp himself and his race to death if he likes but he won't do that to the human race.

 

Gerrel Leroy Jenkins his entire race to death is the epitome of Chaotic Stupid.

[Laughing_Man]

"Playing God" is a metaphor for something along the lines of "to behave as if you have the right to make very important decisions that seriously affect other people's lives". Wheter you believe in any sort of deity or not is completely irrelevant to the meaning of the phrase. It's like saying atheists don't understand it if someone says "God dammit" as an expression of annoyance.

And you can't prevent something that is 50 years in the future. You aren't even able to reliably guess what will happen beyond the next 5 years I'd wager. Hell, you might very easily guess what will happen to yourself tomorrow, but even then there is always the possibility that something completely different will happen. That is even one of the points Mordins arc is about.

 

 

Well, let's just agree to disagree. There are many things you can't foresee, but something like reproduction cycles, consumption rates, planets available, and population growth are not as arcane as you may think. 1000 Krogans per birth is an insane number that will have an almost immediate effect on the galaxy, please do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

[Quarian Master Race]

Javik is that you?

 

And no, I believe my scenarios make much more sense than yours.

 

Gerrel's pew pewing his entire race to death over a one shot chance at the Geth was stupid.  His unwillingness to accept new info from the ground team makes him far more of a liability on the battlefield than an asset.  Sure he'll die trying, and take everyone with him in the process.  Nope, he can derp himself and his race to death if he likes but he won't do that to the human race.

 

Gerrel Leroy Jenkins his entire race to death is the epitome of Chaotic Stupid.

Javik's opinions mirror my own on this issue, yes.

That would be relevant, if he didn't back down when given said new info from the ground team exactly as  you say he doesn't. Play it again. The only difference between the quarians fighting to the death and accepting the ceasefire with the geth is that anyone bothers to tell Gerrel that the geth are getting their Reaper code back in the latter outcome. If you choose the geth, Shepard and the quarian present (either Tali or Raan) all stand around like morons and then the latter offs themself. The quarians can only die if you and the Admiral on the ground don't do your jobs on purpose. 

He attacks an enemy he has every reason to believe  is helpless because you and Admiral Idiot'Ball vas Plotrequirements on the ground haven't told them that you are letting the geth have their magical Reaper code back, then he can't retreat. It's hardly stupid, or the thought process used to reach it chatoic, given that eliminating the geth is a major boon to galactic security and stability. Han'Gerrel is the hero the galaxy deserves.
 

[fyz306903]

Seeing this board flooded with questions about the shape and inclusivity of character creator/romance options made me realise how few are the questions regarding traditional RPG elements.

 

For example, how about giving me an opportunity to act evil, with evil consequences? One of my biggest problems with ME3 (I still didn't finish DA:I but I don't expect it to be an option there) was that I wasn't able to betray humanity or even be less of a wimp regarding that goddamn hoodie dream brat.

 

As I understand it we will come to a new galaxy as explorers first and foremost. Why not conquerors then? Why shouldn't we be able to do evil things to indigenous races, why not help exploiting the newly found planets a'la the Avatar antagonist? Of course, provided there will be some natives to be exploited there.

 

I'm quite tired of playing as a goody-two-shoes, even if I'm allowed to yell at some people while being a goody-two-shoes (see ME3).

The colonialist undertones of MEA's plot (assuming the rest of the leak is correct) would definitely allow for some evil actions and thoughts from the protagonist if Bioware included them. Still, making him too evil could be controversial, we don't want the protagonist acting like European colonisers of the 1500's...do we? 

[Killdren88]

Eh, could be fun. The acts of genocide I've committed in other games.

[AlanC9]

1) Any intelligent one will realize that worrying about the feelings of nonsentient software programs is a pointless exercise in misguided anthropomorphization.

You sure about "nonsentient" there? Enough geth programs together certainly act sentient. The individual programs aren't, but neither are individual neurons.

[fhs33721]

Well, let's just agree to disagree. There are many things you can't foresee, but something like reproduction cycles, consumption rates, planets available, and population growth are not as arcane as you may think. 1000 Krogans per birth is an insane number that will have an almost immediate effect on the galaxy, please do the math yourself if you don't believe me.

Oh I completely agree that the numbers of 1000 Krogans per birth are insane. But I attribute that to whoever wrote that line having absolutely no sense of scale whatsoever. Aside from probably insect queens I don't think any animal is capable of producing that much offspring, certainly not any reptiles (which Krogans seem to be) that I know of.

But somehow there has to be a way of the Krogan handling it because they apparently did it during their high-period and seemingly do it in some of the epilogues... somehow.

[Daemul]

The colonialist undertones of MEA's plot (assuming the rest of the leak is correct) would definitely allow for some evil actions and thoughts from the protagonist if Bioware included them. Still, making him too evil could be controversial, we don't want the protagonist acting like European colonisers of the 1500's...do we? 

 

I act like that all the time in RTS games like Total war(enslaving the Gauls has never felt so good) so.....I don't mind lol

 

But seriously, as long as BIoware don't try to justify the actions then it would be ok, but knowing Bioware they will try and justify it and it will blow up in their face.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The colonialist undertones of MEA's plot (assuming the rest of the leak is correct) would definitely allow for some evil actions and thoughts from the protagonist if Bioware included them. Still, making him too evil could be controversial, we don't want the protagonist acting like European colonisers of the 1500's...do we?

The evil of colonizers is a matter of some debate.

[RevilFox]

I'd really like multiple Renegade/Paragon paths. For example, if you went full Renegade in MET (the Mass Effect Trilogy), you came off as a hard ass who was pretty xenophobic. If you went full Paragon, you came across as very xeno...friendly(?). I always wanted to be able to play a Renegade in MET that is fine with other races, but is still an ends justify the means/make the hard choices character. Or a character like Ashley, that thinks humans shouldn't intermingle with other races, but is much more diplomatic and philosophical about it. 

 

To be clear, I'm not saying those are exactly the options I want in MEA, just an example of what I'm looking for using MET as a baseline. 

[Laughing_Man]

Oh I completely agree that the numbers of 1000 Krogans per birth are insane. But I attribute that to whoever wrote that line having absolutely no sense of scale whatsoever. Aside from probably insect queens I don't think any animal is capable of producing that much offspring, certainly not any reptiles (which Krogans seem to be) that I know of.

But somehow there has to be a way of the Krogan handling it because they apparently did it during their high-period and seemingly do it in some of the epilogues... somehow.

 

Obviously I agree about the sense of scale, but when you consider questions regarding the lore you have to consider the data you have available.

 

And the hope of the Krogan "handling" it "somehow" - is not much to go on, it sounds to me like a desperate hope, an excuse to remove the weight of the decision from Shepard.

[Hazegurl]

Javik's opinions mirror my own on this issue, yes.

That would be relevant, if he didn't back down when given said new info from the ground team exactly as  you say he doesn't. Play it again. The only difference between the quarians fighting to the death and accepting the ceasefire with the geth is that anyone bothers to tell Gerrel that the geth are getting their Reaper code back in the latter outcome. If you choose the geth, Shepard and the quarian present (either Tali or Raan) all stand around like morons and then the latter offs themself. The quarians can only die if you and the Admiral on the ground don't do your jobs on purpose. 

He attacks an enemy he has every reason to believe  is helpless because you and Admiral Idiot'Ball vas Plotrequirements on the ground haven't told them that you are letting the geth have their magical Reaper code back, then he can't retreat. It's hardly stupid, or the thought process used to reach it chatoic, given that eliminating the geth is a major boon to galactic security and stability. Han'Gerrel is the hero the galaxy deserves.
 

He doesn't give Tali time to even tell him what's happening because he's too busy ordering the fleets to keep firing on the Geth despite already being told to ceasefire because the Geth are returning to full strength. he doesn't get the knowledge he needs because he's not open to hearing it.

 

However, I do also blame Tali and Koris, along with the rest of the Quarians who are allowing Gerrel to walk all over them. The moment Gerrel orders his people to keep firing Tali just gives up because they would literally rather die than to anger Gerrel. What a bunch of flipping morons.