281 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahriman]

 

 

How is killing Mordin evil? I'd argue that after listening to Wreav prattle on about eating salarians and making geysers of blood from his enemies, not killing Mordin can only be justified by being stupid evil and malicious, or worrying about if the Krogan will find out about the sabotage and back out. There's also the feels about shooting your friend, but ultimately that should be secondary.

Because killing innocent people judging by your subjective prediction of future is generally considered evil, I guess. inb4 Mordin is not innocent - he just tried to make krogans what they used to be, no matter how much plausible negative outcome is, such action is not a crime.

[Panda]

 

 

How is killing Mordin evil? I'd argue that after listening to Wreav prattle on about eating salarians and making geysers of blood from his enemies, not killing Mordin can only be justified by being stupid evil and malicious, or worrying about if the Krogan will find out about the sabotage and back out. There's also the feels about shooting your friend, but ultimately that should be secondary.
 

 

1) Any intelligent one will realize that worrying about the feelings of nonsentient software programs is a pointless exercise in misguided anthropomorphization.
2) As much as I am "attacking" my toaster when I throw it in the dumpster and get a new one because the former is broken and starts electrical fires.
3) The geth aren't individuals. Applying individualistic morality standards to them is misguided according to their own moral reasoning (per Legion's opinion). By the nature of how they reach consensus, they all agreed to support and participate in organic genocide simply to save their own arses in the short term or hopefully get a Reaper body to upload themselves into after the harvest had been completed.
4) For what? The only assets you get out of them are a fleet that's worth less than that of the quarians and some ground troops, which are mostly redundant if you have krogan. Hardly worth the danger that they present post Reaper code.

Lol@ invoking moral relativism. That basically means "I've no argument to defend my position". The decision is one of the easiest in the entire series both morally and pragmatically, right up there with sabotaging the genophage cure if Wreav's around. 

 

 

Well pretty clearly you see Geth as mindless robots instead of synthetic alien race so in that case it does sound easy to you. However I doubt it was as easy to many considering other points I brought up unless they also are very against geths and see them only as robots and walking softwares.

[Quarian Master Race]

You sure about "nonsentient" there? Enough geth programs together certainly act sentient. The individual programs aren't, but neither are individual neurons.

I am. Your analogy is flawed. Neurons are not seperate from the entity, geth programs are. Their ability to reach proccessing capability comparable to sapience via P2P networking thousands of programs is irrelevant, insofar as linking together supercomputers to increase their processing power does not make them sentient either. They don't show any concrete signs of subjective perception (such as emotional responses) before the Reapers make them into a real boy via some nebulously elucidated (read: space magic) code upgrades.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Tzeetchian Apostrophe:  I can only answer your last question as you're appealing to my opinion. 

 

The answer would be "No."  Though I'm not sure why my morality system should be at all relevant to you.

 

Concerning killing a man and still being good... I don't have time to tell you if you'd be a good person, or if someone else is good.  I can say only that the situations wherein I would recover mentally from killing another human being would be small - and I would never consider killing another human being something I would justify.  It is always wrong for me to do it.

 

I could also say that I would absolutely oppose any individual trying to kill another person.  That might even bring me into my initial conflict of coming to a place of killing that person to stop him/her.  Again, I do not consider myself good for doing it, nor do I justify the action as good simply to lie to myself that it was the only recourse.  It was simply the only one I thought of. 

 

Concerning video games - because of their simplistic childish morality, I do often just accept "Paragon" = "As Good as it's gonna get".  And I do often ignore the murder-fest I have to go through in the combat obstacle courses when thinking about my character's personality.

 

However - when it comes to threads like these... the idea that someone killing more people would make you more evil than the character already presented... is a bit laughable to me.  Hence my statement that none of Bioware's protagonist are "good" people.  Which can only be through the lens of my morality (as yours, is through yours).  I can't, and won't, speak to how someone does, or should, see the characters - but I'm also not going to shy away from confidently stating my view on the topic (as you, and anyone else posting, is doing).  That you find my opinion untenable - is not the fault of me, nor my opinion.

[Quarian Master Race]

He doesn't give Tali time to even tell him what's happening because he's too busy ordering the fleets to keep firing on the Geth despite already being told to ceasefire because the Geth are returning to full strength. he doesn't get the knowledge he needs because he's not open to hearing it.

 

However, I do also blame Tali and Koris, along with the rest of the Quarians who are allowing Gerrel to walk all over them. The moment Gerrel orders his people to keep firing Tali just gives up because they would literally rather die than to anger Gerrel. What a bunch of flipping morons.

He wasn't already told. That only takes place if Shepard takes the persuasion option, otherwise he just tells the quarian "call off the Fleet if you can". Tali's got plenty of time to try and go over Gerrel's head with an order (but not actually explain the situation to him) on the radio, then pout, cry and look sad for seemingly forever before throwing herself off a cliff (y'know, instead of just shooting the robot like any rational person). Raan doesn't even bother trying to contact Gerrel and turns her gun on herself instead of the robot or random human that is trying to extinct her species. Shepard's only excuse for such actions would be if s/he is just intentionally trying to genocide the quarians (read: evil). Keep making excuses that essentially boil down to poor implementation of persuasion mechanics. The way it's presented is the way it is.

It's called idiot ball. They were required to do nothing so that you could be solely responsible for the decision, and be penalized for not meeting a persuasion check that enables you to be Space Jesus and give a feely speech so everyone including the mean robot hating racist Gerrel kisses and makes up, when the solution if you wanted that was braindead easy. If they had actually written Gerrel to go General Ripper after you tell him, that would have made more sense and you would have a point, but they didn't. 

[Lulupab]

The renegade way to make ceasefire is more believable than Paragon one.

[Quarian Master Race]

The renegade way to make ceasefire is more believable than Paragon one.

Neither are particularly belivable, but the writing of the Rannoch arc in ME3 is pretty much a gigantic travesty in general, starting with the point wherein after being attacked by a superior foe, the geth prefer being Reaper slaves to doing something logical, such as a retreat from Rannoch. You know, that thing the quarians already did 300 years ago despite the fact that they aren't machines who can live in space and draw resources from asteroids?

After that it's pretty much just Legion (if it's present) and every single recurring quarian character undergoing massive character derailment to force the idiotic narrative and standoff conclusion of the arc to fit the Destroy or Synthesis (but strangely not control) themes. People are just blinded by the gratuitous feels, but it's probably the worst written part of the entire game, even moreso than the endings.

[Valkyrja]

The changes to Renegade in ME3 and how the choices were written in DA:I were probably a response by BioWare to years of criticism about black and white morality where the "evil" path generally involved a bad attitude, insulting people, and petty acts of violence that didn't really make sense.

[Lulupab]

Neither are particularly belivable, but the writing of the Rannoch arc in ME3 is pretty much a gigantic travesty in general, starting with the point wherein after being attacked by a superior foe, the geth prefer being Reaper slaves to doing something logical, such as a retreat from Rannoch. You know, that thing the quarians already did 300 years ago despite the fact that they aren't machines who can live in space and draw resources from asteroids?

After that it's pretty much just Legion (if it's present) and every single recurring quarian character undergoing massive character derailment to force the idiotic narrative and standoff conclusion of the arc to fit the Destroy or Synthesis (but strangely not control) themes. People are just blinded by the gratuitous feels, but it's probably the worst written part of the entire game, even moreso than the endings.

 

Still intimidating them into submission is more believable than kindly asking them to stop, even if the whole ordeal is not believable. I think David Gaider criticized it as "cheating".

 

As I gather, Synthesis is not a popular ending choice. Most people make ceasefire at Rannoch and chose destroy, which effectively destroys the Geth as well.

[Kel Eligor]

Letting Quarians die can be headcanoned as evil, but I don't think it's evil by default. It depends on how you see Geth and their worth.

I think you can headcanon those as ruthless, but not evil, but they seem to lean more on evil size.

That's pretty evil ^^

Sorry, but if you put Samara committing suicide and Shepard's cold-blooded murder of her last remaining daughter in the ''ruthless, but not evil'' category, you have one hell of a skewed definition of evil. 

[Big I]

Neither are particularly belivable, but the writing of the Rannoch arc in ME3 is pretty much a gigantic travesty in general, starting with the point wherein after being attacked by a superior foe, the geth prefer being Reaper slaves to doing something logical, such as a retreat from Rannoch. You know, that thing the quarians already did 300 years ago despite the fact that they aren't machines who can live in space and draw resources from asteroids?

 

They built their megastructure around Rannoch's sun. The megastructure and geth hubs in the system contained most of the geth; they didn't have enough mobile platforms for them all. Abandoning the system would have meant sacrificing most of the Consensus, and accepting the resulting loss of intelligence, processing power and perspective. They were only able to stop their eradication at the hand of the quarians by accepting Reaper code upgrades.

[Hazegurl]

He wasn't already told. That only takes place if Shepard takes the persuasion option, otherwise he just tells the quarian "call off the Fleet if you can".

It's called idiot ball. They were required to do nothing so that you could be solely responsible for the decision, and be penalized for not meeting a persuasion check that enables you to be Space Jesus and give a feely speech so everyone including the mean robot hating racist Gerrel kisses and makes up, when the solution if you wanted that was braindead easy. If they had actually written Gerrel to go General Ripper after you tell him, that would have made more sense and you would have a point, but they didn't. 

Tali: Break off the attack

Gerrel: Belay that order! Keep attacking

Tali: *Derp*

 

P/R Shepard: If you don't want to get blown out of the sky in about a minute stand down now.

 

Tali and Koris: He speaks with our authority.

 

Gerrel: Negative! We can still win! Keep firing!

 

R/P Shepard then explains despite Gerrel's so called orders.

 

You can call it the idiot ball and I agree somewhat.  However, it was already set up in the story that Gerrel is a bully whom the other Admirals defer to, we're told this earlier in the story.  So it does actually make perfect sense that they would sit back and let Gerrel railroad them like that because they had been doing it for years. It takes someone outside the Quarian race who doesn't give two shyts about Gerrel to give them a freaking backbone.  Despite receiving the information that his actions could destroy the Quarians, he still orders them to keep attacking.  Like I said, He's the Leroy Jenkins of the Quarian race. Don't blame the writing for your hero's chaotic stupidity. 

[Daemul]

Sorry, but if you put Samara committing suicide and Shepard's cold-blooded murder of her last remaining daughter in the ''ruthless, but not evil'' category, you have one hell of a skewed definition of evil. 

 

LOL wat? Shepard was just doing what Samara somehow was unable to do(even though she had no problem killing her eldest daughter in the previous game) and what the Asari Commandos had been tasked by Asari High Command to do, razing the monastery down to the ground along with everyone in it. After seeing what Morinth could do I gladly obliged with the Asari High Commands request.  

 

Samara wasn't in my first ME3 import(she somehow died on my first suicide mission lol) so it was just Falere standing there,  and I just said "f**k it" and shot her to get it over with. 

[KaiserShep]

Man, am I the only one that still kind of loves the resolution to Rannoch? People love to lambaste it now, but I remember having a ball when I first played it. 

[Panda]

Sorry, but if you put Samara committing suicide and Shepard's cold-blooded murder of her last remaining daughter in the ''ruthless, but not evil'' category, you have one hell of a skewed definition of evil. 

 

You read the "lines" wrong ^^

[The Elder King]

Man, am I the only one that still kind of loves the resolution to Rannoch? People love to lambaste it now, but I remember having a ball when I first played it.

I like Rannoch's outcomes. I don't like much Geth's and Quarians' portrayals...Though they're in good company.

[KaiserShep]

I actually didn't mind the way either faction was portrayed, since both were extremely desperate. Had the quarians timed their assault on the geth better, they would have successfully wiped them out before they even had a chance to hook up with the reapers. Xen's plan was actually a good one. The only thing that killed it was that it came too late. 

[Hazegurl]

Sorry, but if you put Samara committing suicide and Shepard's cold-blooded murder of her last remaining daughter in the ''ruthless, but not evil'' category, you have one hell of a skewed definition of evil. 

Samara chose to commit suicide because she could not bear killing her last daughter.  She believed, without even speaking to Shepard, that killing herself would save her daughter's life. However, if Shepard was set on following through with the Asari mission then killing Falere had to be done.  Samara had zero confirmation that Shepard was going to let Falere live. 

[The Elder King]

I actually didn't mind the way either faction was portrayed, since both were extremely desperate.

Being desperate doesn't justify Starting a war right before/in the middle of the Reaper invasion or bcoming the Reapers' slaves, in my opinion.
Though as I said, I don't have an higher opinion of the other species, more or less.

[Daemul]

The changes to Renegade in ME3 and how the choices were written in DA:I were probably a response by BioWare to years of criticism about black and white morality where the "evil" path generally involved a bad attitude, insulting people, and petty acts of violence that didn't really make sense.

 

Yep, I loved playing Renegade in ME3, all his actions made sense to me and didn't make me facepalm like in the previous two games. ME2 Renegade especially was a dumba** who was too focused on trying to crack one liners and failing to be funny. Bioware removed all that garbage and gave us the no nonsense and serious Renegade we should have had al along. 

[Hazegurl]

I wouldn't expect either race to just lay down and die for the sake of the galaxy either. IMO, desperation sort of does justify their actions.  Even though I'm no fan of those actions.

[The Elder King]

I wouldn't expect either race to just lay down and die for the sake of the galaxy either. IMO, desperation sort of does justify their actions. Even though I'm no fan of those actions.

The quarians weren't in a 'Fight Geth or die' situation When they attacked the Geth though.

[Quarian Master Race]

 

They built their megastructure around Rannoch's sun. The megastructure and geth hubs in the system contained most of the geth; they didn't have enough mobile platforms for them all. Abandoning the system would have meant sacrificing most of the Consensus, and accepting the resulting loss of intelligence, processing power and perspective. They were only able to stop their eradication at the hand of the quarians by accepting Reaper code upgrades.

The Dyson structure being destroyed (and its effect on geth intelligence) is the excuse Legion/ VI gives, but the rest of your post doesn't make any sense and is basically headcanon unless there's a source I'm unaware of. Further, it tells you this after you just fought a huge geth fleet with a giant dreadnought that had seemingly thousands of platforms on it alone (nevermind its computer's ability to broadacst a Reaper signal to every geth in existence). They obviously have lots of ships, which have lots of data storage capacity, and it doesn't take that much intelligence to realize that cutting your losses and bugging out is probably more likely to guarantee survival than enthralling yourselves to beings whose stated purpose is to purge the galaxy of all organic and synthetic life(<hey that's you) every 50000 years. The fact that the geth are aware of the purpose of the Reapers better than anyone and are by their nature are immune to "indoctrination" makes it even more ridiculous.

The plot is contrived. The geth ally with the Reapers because that was the only way the writers could think of generating pathos for the geth and quarians at the same time while still attempting to write the latter as a society of 17 million faceless pantomime villians.
 

 

Tali: Break off the attack

Gerrel: Belay that order! Keep attacking

Tali: *Derp*

 

P/R Shepard: If you don't want to get blown out of the sky in about a minute stand down now.

 

Tali and Koris: He speaks with our authority.

 

Gerrel: Negative! We can still win! Keep firing!

 

R/P Shepard then explains despite Gerrel's so called orders.

 

You can call it the idiot ball and I agree somewhat.  However, it was already set up in the story that Gerrel is a bully whom the other Admirals defer to, we're told this earlier in the story.  So it does actually make perfect sense that they would sit back and let Gerrel railroad them like that because they had been doing it for years. It takes someone outside the Quarian race who doesn't give two shyts about Gerrel to give them a freaking backbone.  Despite receiving the information that his actions could destroy the Quarians, he still orders them to keep attacking.  Like I said, He's the Leroy Jenkins of the Quarian race. Don't blame the writing for your hero's chaotic stupidity. 

 

Yes, Gerrel's orders, which were once again given BEFORE the requisite knowlege of geth capablities being given by any of his allies, and are changed immediately after. The only reason he is ever informed of this by his supposed allies on the ground is if you take the persuasion option, and in both permutations he stands down after being given the new information. If you choose the geth, no one bothers to do their job and radio him at all. He's pretty much the only one who doesn't act out of character in that instance. He isn't railroading anyone, he commands the Heavy Fleet. It's his job to not listen to random subordinates or outsiders on military matters when they tell him to change his strategy for no discernible reason. When they give him a reason, he responds accordingly.

You're just making excuses for awful writing now. The way it is written, the side with the geth outcome is in no way Gerrel's fault and is entirely Shepard/ Tali/ Raan's for not even attempting to do their damn jobs. Whether or not the geth have Reaper upgrades is extremely important tactical information, and the Fleet above should have been immediately consulted/ informed before taking any other actions.

[KaiserShep]

Being desperate doesn't justify Starting right before/in the middle of the Reaper invasion or bcoming the Reapers' slaves, in my opinion.
Though as I said, I don't have an higher opinion of the other species, more or less.

 

Well, think of it this way. The quarians' entire population is basically confined to spaceships. In one fell swoop, a single capital ship could just roll in and wipe them out. More importantly, the migrant fleet is on borrowed time. Even if they somehow survive the reaper war with enough left to sustain their population, the geth could very well see the end of the war in greater strength than their own, and what remains of the quarians will simply dwindle in space. If an opportunity to wipe out the troublesome geth once and for all and reclaim Rannoch presents itself while there may be enough time to do so, it's understandable that they'd take it. I can't say for certain that I would ignore such an opportunity myself.

 

In the case of the geth, the options are go extinct now, or [likely] go extinct later, though the prospect of being harvested rather than simply deleted would likely be preferable to beings that already exist as software anyhow.

[The Elder King]

Well, think of it this way. The quarians' entire population is basically confined to spaceships. In one fell swoop, a single capital ship could just roll in and wipe them out. More importantly, the migrant fleet is on borrowed time. Even if they somehow survive the reaper war with enough left to sustain their population, the geth could very well see the end of the war in greater strength than their own, and what remains of the quarians will simply dwindle in space. If an opportunity to wipe out the troublesome geth once and for all and reclaim Rannoch presents itself while there may be enough time to do so, it's understandable that they'd take it. I can't say for certain that I would ignore such an opportunity myself. After all, what else are they going to do? 
 
In the case of the geth, the options are go extinct now, or [likely] go extinct later, though the prospect of being harvested rather than simply deleted would likely be preferable to beings that already exist as software anyhow.

That's good and all, but Destroying the Geth and famiglia Rannoch would mean nothing when the Reapers would wipe them out. I'd prefer on Focusing on the far bigger and actual galaxy threat then a smaller threat, Which At the moment was untriggered. N
To be clear, I understand their reasoning, but I disagree completely.