70 réponses à ce sujet

[Khrystyn]

Different schemes have been used to track/count/adjust/determine the primary character's standing as a paragon or renegade as the game progresses. Traditionally, early dialog/action choices determine whether future paragon and renegade dialog and action choices are available or excluded.

 

I'd like to have a morality choice system that allows the player's character make a mix of P/R choices without losing out in the availability of future P/R dialog options. Should a renegade be excluded from making a paragon choice as the game progresses and lose their overall renegade status? Can a paragon start out idealistic, then lose their balance, but by the end they can reclaim their original views and morality?  I'm in favor of a horizontal scale that indicates the way you are trending, but doesn't limit any of your dialog/action choices later in the game; all paragon and renegade choices should be available everytime a choice has to be made. As the story unfolds, I can evolve/devolve/revolve my character's morality and personality in a more realistic way. It allows our character to have many sides to their true nature and treat different NPCs in different ways. "I'm a paragon here, but not there." This scheme allows the player greater customization and control of their fantasy protagonist/antagonist. Through the journey we face, we learn/show who we really are based on our reactions at different moments. The theme of redemption and vasillating choices is a powerful character evolution.

 

I do want want to see some kind of morality feedback scale so I can see how my character is trending, but doesn't limit my dialog options later in the game; it's just for informational purposes.

 

My main purpose for this thread is to ask for the mechanics of a game's morality or consequence mechanism that people favor.

 

If you want to scrap morality choices altogether, what are your specific suggestions and reasons about how would you would prefer to have consequences of dialog and action choices handled?

 

If you recommend a morality mechanism from another game that you really like, it would be helpful if you would explain, briefly, how that morality system works for those of us who haven't played the game you're referring to. It would also be helpful if you can insert a link to a web page that decribes the system you are referring to.

[KainD]

I don't want to see P/R mechanics, don't like morality bars. 

[Dabrikishaw]

Mass Effect 1 did this the best in my opinion. Investing in both Paragon and Regenade trees gave you all the Charm and Intimidate options in the game and didn't lock you out of picking either just because you didn't pick enough Charm and Intimidate options previously.

 

The only real problem with this is you needed to powergame the free points you get in each new game if you didn't want to lose out on points to improve you other talents, but if you don't have a problem with doing that or just maxing the Paragon and Regenade trees as you level up it's all good.

[Khrystyn]

Perhaps what I was really suggesting at the beginning of this thread, without realizing it, is to have no morality system at all. All P/R choices are available all the time, regardless of previous morality choices. Dabrikishaw's method for leveling up both P/R talents for ME1 makes all P/R choices available, but to max both P/R talent levels you'd either have to replay the game more than 3 times to reach 12P and 12R, or you'd have to enter a cheat code to insert unearned talent points to scale up both P/R levels in quicker fashion. I also liked the P/R interrupts in ME2 that inserted an action or extra dialog, but they should have been selectable without a momentary availability. Still, I'd like to see some type of measure regarding the type of moral character my protagonist is becoming. Maybe it's better to not use blue/red dialog distinctions at all, and P/R choices on the dialog wheel would not be identified; then I'll find out later about the type of character I'm developing as the game moves forward.

 

I hope people here will suggest how the P/R mechanic should work. I've only played ME games, so I don't know how the morality system is constructed/developed in other games.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Remove paragon and renegade for good. Have persuasion options be unlocked through some other means like in DA:I or something you can spend character points on.

[Majestic Jazz]

Do what Witcher 3 did. Thats how Mass Effect 4 should be like.

[Kingthlayer]

If they choose to go Paragon/Renegade again, which I feel they shouldn't, since it's outdated, same with SWTOR Dark Side/Light Side, yawn boring.

 

I figure just do Mass Effect 3 again, since IIRC, as long as the bar has a certain amount of fill in it, you can chose whichever coloured option you want.  Or at least I'm remembering ending the Geth/Quarian conflict with a renegade option even though I was mostly paragon.

 

Meh they're best off getting rid of that system, especially now looking at a decision like the Geth vs Quarian, where choosing between the two can't be defined as Paragon vs Renegade, either way you're killing a species.

[Dabrikishaw]

Perhaps what I was really suggesting at the beginning of this thread, without realizing it, is to have no morality system at all. All P/R choices are available all the time. I agree with Dabrikishaw's opinion about the P/R talent level mechanics in ME1, but to max both P/R talent levels you'd either have to replay the game more than 2-3 times to reach 12P and 12R, or you'd have to enter a cheat code to insert unearned talent points to have all morality dialog options available at all times. Still, I'd like to see some type of measure regarding the type of moral character I'm becoming. Maybe it's better to not use blue/red dialog distinctions at all; P/R choices on the dialog wheel would not be identified, and I'll find out what I'm becoming as the game progresses.

If you don't want a morality system, then I don't see why you'd keep the Paragon/Renegade choices at all. Charm and Intimidate interrupts can stay and be turned into something new entirely.

[Felya87]

a persuade/intimidate skill tree should be made, and let paragon/renegade options only in name when making decisions, and becaming some kind of fame. Like a character who make enought "paragon" choices is seen as a Paragon, but this influence only how people react to the character, and not wich dialogue options can be used.

[phantomrachie]

I'd like charm & intimate to come back as skills & not linked to the Paragon/Renegade Scale. You had to be very morally black & white to succeed in the harder persuade attempts in ME2.

 

I also liked the way ME3 had Reputation that you gained independently of Paragon/Renegade points, but I didn't think it was developed out enough.

 

I've no real problem with Paragon/Renegade, it's just annoying when it's linked to your ability to influence people.

 

I much prefer a more developed Reputation system, like saving a group of refugees gives you one type of reputation & killing them gives you another.

 

Then later on down the line when you try to intimidate or charm someone, it can fail or pass based on your reputation, but you'll still be able to try.

 

This would make is easier to RP more morally grey characters, saving the refugees but killing slavers instead of turning them over to the authorities would net you a different reputation to saving the refugees & imprisoning the slavers.

[Khrystyn]

If you don't want a morality system, then I don't see why you'd keep the Paragon/Renegade choices at all.

 

I do want want to see some kind of morality feedback scale so I can see how my character is trending, but doesn't limit my dialog options later in the game; it's just for informational purposes.

 

My main purpose for this thread is to ask for the mechanics of a game's morality mechanism that people favor. If you don't want a morality system, it doesn't have to be mentioned here; there are other forums for expressing your disfavor. If you recommend a morality mechanism from another game that you like, it would be helpful if you would explain, briefly, how that morality system works for those of us who haven't played the game you're referring to. It would also be helpful if you can insert a link to a web page that decribes the system you are referring to.

[Ahriman]

Limiting player's decisions and forcing to follow one path is certainly not a best game design. Still I'd like the game to track general protagonist's attitude in some form of reputation, changing reaction of other people, maybe add some character/his faction bonuses depending on it.

I also liked idea with small auto-phrases from DA2 which were formed by player's favourite form of dicussion. I know most of people hated it, but I like the idea behind it. Scenes where you don't have time to choose dialogue options would certainly benefit from it.

[Hiemoth]

I don't quite understand the OP's point, as it sounds a lot like the system in ME3 where the decision on if you are able to do a choice is based on reputation, not the Paragon/Renegade value. Although that did also raise questions on what was the purpose of P/R anymore at that point. Also, Paragon/Renegade was a not a morality meter, it was representative of the characters attitude towards solving problems and if end justifies the means. For me, it was also a more realistic approach than often given credit for as how we conduct ourselves generally does affect how others react to our intentions. For example, if your Shepard solves everything by the first three options being shooting and threatening everyone, him/her suddenly urging people for peace really wouldn't come across as genuine.

 

Overall, though, this does lead back to something I've always found curious since ME1/ME2 systems, which both had their issues. At the same players are clamoring for reactivity from the game to their choices, yet when the game restricts options based on the players chosen approach, it is suddenly horrible game design. So at the same time Bioware should respect player choices, but at the same time they shouldn't limit the player in anyway based on those choices.

[Hiemoth]

I do want want to see some kind of morality feedback scale so I can see how my character is trending, but doesn't limit my dialog options later in the game; it's just for informational purposes.

 

My main purpose for this thread is to ask for the mechanics of a game's morality mechanism that people favor. If you don't want a morality system, it doesn't have to be mentioned here; there are other forums for expressing your disfavor. If you recommend a morality mechanism from another game that you like, it would be helpful if you would explain, briefly, how that morality system works for those of us who haven't played the game you're referring to. It would also be helpful if you can insert a link to a web page that decribes the system you are referring to.

 

Honestly, I don't really the system you are pushing for. The closest I can get is that you want something like the FONV faction reputation?

[Sanunes]

The problem is no matter what BioWare will do with a system like this it will be considered unbalanced because the characters are not doing what a person would expect in that situation.  Even look at how the differences are between how people classify the choices to "good" and "evil" style actions when it can be just as easily looked at as diplomatic and forceful.

 

I would suggest if the system was to remain in the game, removal of dialogue based increases or choices and make it more about the interrupts that was introduced with Mass Effect 2 for then it is a more accurate description of what they want the characters to do.

[Khrystyn]

Using the word 'balanced' was not the right word to use, I guess. I'm not suggesting that we balance our P/R choices. Great input so far.

 

Thanks.

[AlexiaRevan]

if they bring back paragon/renegade , I hope they add Neutral . Middle answer came off often as a naive though 

[Inquisitor_Jonah]

It's simple, don't block dialog options, make them all available and avaliate the player's reputation from what he choses to say/do. That would make things better for roleplaying. Maybe they could tear a page from dragon age's book and use the icon tones in the dialog weel. 

[saladinbob]

Remove them completely from the game. They are not how you should handle those issues. Life is more complex than Paragon and Renegade decisions and so should the game. I'll give an example from The Witcher 3 and compare it to how Bioware does things. Don't read on if you haven't played that game and plan to do so.

 

Early in the game's prologue, you are offered a choice to help someone with a potion. This potion might heal, it might not. If Bioware was doing this it plays out like this: Paragon decision is give her the potion in an attempt to save her life. Renegade decision is withhold the potion and let her die.

 

CPRD's way of doing things is the choice is yours and you have to live with the consequences of that choice because much later in the game you'll face the consequences of that choice. The essence of what makes a person has gone from her. She's a walking vegetable. Rather than refusing to help and allowing her to die with dignity, you chose to help her and turned her in to a mindless husk. Was it the right thing to help? Should you not have interfered? The writers aren't about to answer that for you, that's something you'll have to decide yourself.

 

That's the kind of nuanced writing we should be getting. Not this Paragon/Renegade drivel.

[phantomrachie]

Remove them completely from the game. They are not how you should handle those issues. Life is more complex than Paragon and Renegade decisions and so should the game. I'll give an example from The Witcher 3 and compare it to how Bioware does things. Don't read on if you haven't played that game and plan to do so.

 

Early in the game's prologue, you are offered a choice to help someone with a potion. This potion might heal, it might not. If Bioware was doing this it plays out like this: Paragon decision is give her the potion in an attempt to save her life. Renegade decision is withhold the potion and let her die.

 

CPRD's way of doing things is the choice is yours and you have to live with the consequences of that choice because much later in the game you'll face the consequences of that choice. The essence of what makes a person has gone from her. She's a walking vegetable. Rather than refusing to help and allowing her to die with dignity, you chose to help her and turned her in to a mindless husk. Was it the right thing to help? Should you not have interfered? The writers aren't about to answer that for you, that's something you'll have to decide yourself.

 

That's the kind of nuanced writing we should be getting. Not this Paragon/Renegade drivel.

 

Except isn't that choice just a Paragon/Renegade choice but without the numbers?

 

In ME both Paragon & Renegade choices can backfire on you, you just don't see it until the next game. Saving the Rachni Queen or giving the Collector Base to Cerberus are examples of this. 

 

Now, I don't think BioWare does this often enough so I'd like more of it, but your point is more about consequences rather than a morality system. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I do want want to see some kind of morality feedback scale so I can see how my character is trending, but doesn't limit my dialog options later in the game; it's just for informational purposes.

 

My main purpose for this thread is to ask for the mechanics of a game's morality mechanism that people favor. If you don't want a morality system, it doesn't have to be mentioned here; there are other forums for expressing your disfavor. If you recommend a morality mechanism from another game that you like, it would be helpful if you would explain, briefly, how that morality system works for those of us who haven't played the game you're referring to. It would also be helpful if you can insert a link to a web page that decribes the system you are referring to.

Okay.

 

Again, I think Mass Effect 1 did this the best. Investing in the Charm/Intimidate trees with talent points unlocked more Charm/Intimidate options. The Paragon/Renegade bars only tracked how many points from each you accumulated, they had no effect on the success of your Charm/Intimidate options.

[eyezonlyii]

Except isn't that choice just a Paragon/Renegade choice but without the numbers?

 

In ME both Paragon & Renegade choices can backfire on you, you just don't see it until the next game. Saving the Rachni Queen or giving the Collector Base to Cerberus are examples of this. 

 

Now, I don't think BioWare does this often enough so I'd like more of it, but your point is more about consequences rather than a morality system. 

The Rachni queen is the only Paragon choice that can backfire I believe. I think that is the biggest issue with the choices. Paragon meant "good" and Renegade fluctuated between "laffably evul" and "mission efficient". I think there should be a four way axis if they're going to keep a morality system, though I'm struggling to conceptualize such a thing myself.

[AlanC9]

In ME both Paragon & Renegade choices can backfire on you, you just don't see it until the next game. Saving the Rachni Queen or giving the Collector Base to Cerberus are examples of this. 

I'm not sure I'd count those as backfires. You get more EMS with the rachni saved -- plus the whole no-genocide thing, which I presume is the reason for going that route in the first place. And the Collector Base only hurts you in very specific situations. Same thing for letting Balak get away -- maybe he massacred a bunch more humans sometime in the future, but we never hear of it. I can't think of a Paragon choice that really backfires.

[phantomrachie]

The Rachni queen is the only Paragon choice that can backfire I believe. I think that is the biggest issue with the choices. Paragon meant "good" and Renegade fluctuated between "laffably evul" and "mission efficient". I think there should be a four way axis if they're going to keep a morality system, though I'm struggling to conceptualize such a thing myself.

 

 

I'm not sure I'd count those as backfires. You get more EMS with the rachni saved -- plus the whole no-genocide thing, which I presume is the reason for going that route in the first place. And the Collector Base only hurts you in very specific situations. Same thing for letting Balak get away -- maybe he massacred a bunch more humans sometime in the future, but we never hear of it. I can't think of a Paragon choice that really backfires.

 

From an RP prospective seeing the Rachni queen turned into a tool of the reaper did lead one of my Sheps to think if they had really done the right thing in ME1

 

But you guys are both right Renegade choices are far more likely to blow up in your face than Paragon ones.

 

I would like a more even spread of consequences for choices in ME